Butler Street Roof 1976 and Stoke End rebuild 1979

[Kenilworth_Stokies]

Turning to matters off the pitch, for understandable reasons, I had a thought the other day. We're all familiar with the story of the storm of January 1976 which destroyed part of the Butler Street stand roof. Stoke had to sell Greenhoff, Hudson, Pejic and later Shilton to cover the cost of the repairs. A fine title-challenging team was broken up and we ended up getting relegated, all for the want of £250,000 for the repairs. The Oatcake write-up can be found here: theoatcake.wordpress.com/2017/01/06/the-day-the-roof-fell-in/

However, my question is, how did we go from near financial ruin and relegation in 1976 to a position where we voluntarily demolished and rebuilt the Stoke End, just three years later in 1979? This was a time where money was scarce in the game, and clubs like Tottenham, Wolves and Chelsea almost bankrupted themselves building a single grandstand each. Where did struggling Stoke find the money to rebuild a stand, without apparent financial hardship to follow?

[march4]

Mar 14, 2022 10:53:46 GMT Kenilworth_Stokies said:

Turning to matters off the pitch, for understandable reasons, I had a thought the other day. We're all familiar with the story of the storm of January 1976 which destroyed part of the Butler Street stand roof. Stoke had to sell Greenhoff, Hudson, Pejic and later Shilton to cover the cost of the repairs. A fine title-challenging team was broken up and we ended up getting relegated, all for the want of £250,000 for the repairs. The Oatcake write-up can be found here: theoatcake.wordpress.com/2017/01/06/the-day-the-roof-fell-in/

However, my question is, how did we go from near financial ruin and relegation in 1976 to a position where we voluntarily demolished and rebuilt the Stoke End, just three years later in 1979? This was a time where money was scarce in the game, and clubs like Tottenham, Wolves and Chelsea almost bankrupted themselves building a single grandstand each. Where did struggling Stoke find the money to rebuild a stand, without apparent financial hardship to follow?

I suspect the answer is Dudley Kernick.

[Kenilworth_Stokies]

OK, hadn't appreciated how pivotal Dudley had been. Just googled an old Oatcake thread saying he introduced Golden Goal and the club lottery. Was that all it took to build a whole stand? Or was there more to it than that?

[lordb]

Mar 14, 2022 10:56:26 GMT march4 said:

Mar 14, 2022 10:53:46 GMT Kenilworth_Stokies said:

Turning to matters off the pitch, for understandable reasons, I had a thought the other day. We're all familiar with the story of the storm of January 1976 which destroyed part of the Butler Street stand roof. Stoke had to sell Greenhoff, Hudson, Pejic and later Shilton to cover the cost of the repairs. A fine title-challenging team was broken up and we ended up getting relegated, all for the want of £250,000 for the repairs. The Oatcake write-up can be found here: theoatcake.wordpress.com/2017/01/06/the-day-the-roof-fell-in/

However, my question is, how did we go from near financial ruin and relegation in 1976 to a position where we voluntarily demolished and rebuilt the Stoke End, just three years later in 1979? This was a time where money was scarce in the game, and clubs like Tottenham, Wolves and Chelsea almost bankrupted themselves building a single grandstand each. Where did struggling Stoke find the money to rebuild a stand, without apparent financial hardship to follow?

I suspect the answer is Dudley Kernick.

yes he got the money with the various lotteries he brought in

[Deleted]

I remember talking to a chap at Crewe who had been on the board or whatever in the late 70s and he said the lotteries practically saved the club. Clive.....forget his second name. When Waddington went to Crewe the lottery idea followed, I guess he used the same people. Previously they had a collection one game to stop the electric being cut off for a game v Stockport think it was which would have ruined their annual re-election chances as were unable to host the fixture until a couple of hours before kick off. The owner said screw it basically when asked to.pay it and were buckets around the pubs etc to raise the money. Was something in the region of 170 quid believe it or not .

[Dutchpeter]

I think Dudley says as much in his book about the Stand being funded by lottery sales. Remember also that it was a behind goal stand and therefore smaller. It was also more architecturally modest and lower specified than the stands at Wolves, Spurs and particularly Chelsea. Chelsea’s east stand funding was reliant on getting unrealistic break even crowds, it was plagued by building strikes, escalating costs and a lack of penalty clauses as it fell behind schedule. Chelsea’s crowds tailed off as star players were sold to finance this new gargantuan and handsomely specified stand. As I said The Stoke End was more modest and smaller, it’s build time was summer ‘78 to opening October 1979. Stoke also had no expensive land acquisitions like Wolves did for the John Ireland stand.

[J-Roar]

Weren't they called wishbone tickets?

It's hard to imagine having someone with some marketing and commercial nous. Wonder how he would have gone on in today's game.

[wuzza]

I bet old Dudley would have had a riot in the modern technological era that allows you to reach so many more people - especially with the market presence that the PL days provided.
He certainly seems to have been a bundle of marketing energy.

[shrewspotter]

Mar 14, 2022 10:56:26 GMT march4 said:

Mar 14, 2022 10:53:46 GMT Kenilworth_Stokies said:

Turning to matters off the pitch, for understandable reasons, I had a thought the other day. We're all familiar with the story of the storm of January 1976 which destroyed part of the Butler Street stand roof. Stoke had to sell Greenhoff, Hudson, Pejic and later Shilton to cover the cost of the repairs. A fine title-challenging team was broken up and we ended up getting relegated, all for the want of £250,000 for the repairs. The Oatcake write-up can be found here: theoatcake.wordpress.com/2017/01/06/the-day-the-roof-fell-in/

However, my question is, how did we go from near financial ruin and relegation in 1976 to a position where we voluntarily demolished and rebuilt the Stoke End, just three years later in 1979? This was a time where money was scarce in the game, and clubs like Tottenham, Wolves and Chelsea almost bankrupted themselves building a single grandstand each. Where did struggling Stoke find the money to rebuild a stand, without apparent financial hardship to follow?

I suspect the answer is Dudley Kernick.

Who the hell is Dudley Kernick

 

[Kenilworth_Stokies]

Mar 14, 2022 12:34:01 GMT Dutchpeter said:

I think Dudley says as much in his book about the Stand being funded by lottery sales. Remember also that it was a behind goal stand and therefore smaller. It was also more architecturally modest and lower specified than the stands at Wolves, Spurs and particularly Chelsea. Chelsea’s east stand funding was reliant on getting unrealistic break even crowds, it was plagued by building strikes, escalating costs and a lack of penalty clauses as it fell behind schedule. Chelsea’s crowds tailed off as star players were sold to finance this new gargantuan and handsomely specified stand. As I said The Stoke End was more modest and smaller, it’s build time was summer ‘78 to opening October 1979. Stoke also had no expensive land acquisitions like Wolves did for the John Ireland stand.

Thanks for the detailed answer. It's incredible how such small sums of money made such a difference back in those days. A £250k repair bill almost broke the club and yet a fans lottery ticket scheme could buy us a new stand.

I hadn't appreciated how much Kernick achieved. It was always a name I was aware of from the programme but I never realised how important a figure he'd been.

[Deleted]

I think the Stoke End stand opened for 1-1 draw v Forest. One of my first games. Was basically an open bank before that. Always remember some poor soul being on the end of a Howard Kendall pile driver in the face v Sheff U and was a pause before he collapsed to the ground...huge cheers. Cruel lot we were/are

[Dutchpeter]

Mar 14, 2022 13:32:18 GMT Kenilworth_Stokies said:

Mar 14, 2022 12:34:01 GMT Dutchpeter said:

I think Dudley says as much in his book about the Stand being funded by lottery sales. Remember also that it was a behind goal stand and therefore smaller. It was also more architecturally modest and lower specified than the stands at Wolves, Spurs and particularly Chelsea. Chelsea’s east stand funding was reliant on getting unrealistic break even crowds, it was plagued by building strikes, escalating costs and a lack of penalty clauses as it fell behind schedule. Chelsea’s crowds tailed off as star players were sold to finance this new gargantuan and handsomely specified stand. As I said The Stoke End was more modest and smaller, it’s build time was summer ‘78 to opening October 1979. Stoke also had no expensive land acquisitions like Wolves did for the John Ireland stand.

Thanks for the detailed answer. It's incredible how such small sums of money made such a difference back in those days. A £250k repair bill almost broke the club and yet a fans lottery ticket scheme could buy us a new stand.

I hadn't appreciated how much Kernick achieved. It was always a name I was aware of from the programme but I never realised how important a figure he'd been.

The club owed Barclays Bank a lot of money due to expensive player acquisitions. A lack of a cup run and controversially not allowed entry into the UEFA Cup in 1976 were the big reasons for the player fire sale. The insurance paid out circa £60,000 for the Butler Street repairs, so I view the storm damage as the straw that broke the camels back.

[Scouse]

The club having pushed the boat out player purchase wise , needed European qualification to sustain that , Everton successfully appealing the one club one city rule stunted our revenue ..then along came the Butler street issue , problem was insurance would only pay for the damaged section , when effectively due to its age a patch or repair couldn’t be put on , or would prove uneconomical , meaning an entire new roof ( and the cost ) was needed .the insurance didn’t cover a new entire roof .

By the time the Stoke end development came along ground improvement regs together with ground improvement / development grants had started to kick in to try to improve grounds around the country that were beginning to look their age .( matching £ for £ spend by clubs with an upper limit ) . Though as you needed money in the first place lower league clubs often missed out

the Stoke end needed major works on crash barriers and exits just to retain a reduced capacity ..and far from the capacity experienced at the 40,000 + crowds in the 70s .. effectively the club with grants and their own investments from our own lottery could build a stand and paddock at the Stoke end with the approx capacity that major works on crush barriers and exits would bring for the same money

[spitthedog]

Mar 14, 2022 13:42:30 GMT jesusmcmuffin said:

I think the Stoke End stand opened for 1-1 draw v Forest. One of my first games. Was basically an open bank before that. Always remember some poor soul being on the end of a Howard Kendall pile driver in the face v Sheff U and was a pause before he collapsed to the ground...huge cheers. Cruel lot we were/are

they would have stopped the game these days

[Deleted]

Mar 14, 2022 15:58:11 GMT spitthedog said:

Mar 14, 2022 13:42:30 GMT jesusmcmuffin said:

I think the Stoke End stand opened for 1-1 draw v Forest. One of my first games. Was basically an open bank before that. Always remember some poor soul being on the end of a Howard Kendall pile driver in the face v Sheff U and was a pause before he collapsed to the ground...huge cheers. Cruel lot we were/are

they would have stopped the game these days

True. A bloke game him a tissue. Wiped the blood away and on they went

[Gods]

I was always struck by how little damage there really was to the Butler Street stand, it seemed to be about 50 feet in total which collapsed.

Someone please remind me, did they take the corner piece here down in sympathy at the same time?

From memory the Butler Street was left without a roof at the Boothen End of the stand an end and a corner long after the Stoke End was built? It really did look shit for years and years!

[Davef]

Mar 14, 2022 18:33:17 GMT Gods said:

I was always struck by how little damage there really was to the Butler Street stand, it seemed to be about 50 feet in total which collapsed.

Someone please remind me, did they take the corner piece here down in sympathy at the same time?

From memory the Butler Street was left without a roof at the Boothen End of the stand an end and a corner long after the Stoke End was built? It really did look shit for years and years!

The corner section was still intact until 1983/84.

[Kenilworth_Stokies]

Oddly enough, somebody posted a picture of the nearly complete Stoke End on Farcebook earlier. It showed the Stoke End / Butler Street corner as completely missing, so presumably that corner was filled in sometime afterwards, cos I can never remember that corner being open.

[mrcoke]

I'm sure an accountant will give a better explanation than me, but one of the key issues is the difference between revenue and capital expenditure.
As the Butler St stand damage had to be paid for there and then out of revenue, to recover the loss of ticket revenue while damaged, plus safety considerations, cash had to be generated to pay for the repair. The only saleable assets are players. If it happened today bet365 would loan the club the cash to carry out the repair.

A new stand is a capital investment in a fixed asset that can be depreciated over decades. (The purchase cost of players is depreciated over the length of their contract.) The difficult part is securing the loan/investment (unless you have a rich owner) to pay for the building.

[Kenilworth_Stokies]

Mar 14, 2022 21:24:14 GMT Kenilworth_Stokies said:

Oddly enough, somebody posted a picture of the nearly complete Stoke End on Farcebook earlier. It showed the Stoke End / Butler Street corner as completely missing, so presumably that corner was filled in sometime afterwards, cos I can never remember that corner being open.

[Deleted]

Mar 14, 2022 21:24:14 GMT Kenilworth_Stokies said:

Oddly enough, somebody posted a picture of the nearly complete Stoke End on Farcebook earlier. It showed the Stoke End / Butler Street corner as completely missing, so presumably that corner was filled in sometime afterwards, cos I can never remember that corner being open.

I just seem to remember advertising boards in it.

[Gods]

Mar 14, 2022 18:49:20 GMT Davef said:

Mar 14, 2022 18:33:17 GMT Gods said:

I was always struck by how little damage there really was to the Butler Street stand, it seemed to be about 50 feet in total which collapsed.

Someone please remind me, did they take the corner piece here down in sympathy at the same time?

From memory the Butler Street was left without a roof at the Boothen End of the stand an end and a corner long after the Stoke End was built? It really did look shit for years and years!

The corner section was still intact until 1983/84.

Oh okay, I wonder why it was taken down then?

I always thought that without it the Boothen End itself lost some of its atmosphere as the noise just drifted away over that open corner in to the ether.

[J-Roar]

Christ - some restricted views in that corner

[JoeinOz]

Mar 15, 2022 0:08:14 GMT J-Roar said:

Christ - some restricted views in that corner

Loads of stands had restricted views in the good old days

[Davef]

Mar 14, 2022 23:49:38 GMT Gods said:

Mar 14, 2022 18:49:20 GMT Davef said:

The corner section was still intact until 1983/84.

Oh okay, I wonder why it was taken down then?

I always thought that without it the Boothen End itself lost some of its atmosphere as the noise just drifted away over that open corner in to the ether.

Safety reasons I would've thought?

[Gods]

Mar 14, 2022 21:24:14 GMT Kenilworth_Stokies said:

Oddly enough, somebody posted a picture of the nearly complete Stoke End on Farcebook earlier. It showed the Stoke End / Butler Street corner as completely missing, so presumably that corner was filled in sometime afterwards, cos I can never remember that corner being open.

That corner between the Stoke end and Butler Street stand had benches rather than seats in at some point.

I recall a lot of trouble breaking out among the benches when we played Manchester United when I was in there with my dad as a small boy.

I think my dad was oblivious to the whole thing :-)

[emmbrook1956]

It looks as if a number of you have read Jonathan Baker’s book ‘the year we nearly won the League!’ If not it is a cracking read! If anybody needs details of the book happy to include details if required

[SamB_SCFC]

Mar 14, 2022 14:13:03 GMT Scouse said:

The club having pushed the boat out player purchase wise , needed European qualification to sustain that , Everton successfully appealing the one club one city rule stunted our revenue ..then along came the Butler street issue , problem was insurance would only pay for the damaged section , when effectively due to its age a patch or repair couldn’t be put on , or would prove uneconomical , meaning an entire new roof ( and the cost ) was needed .the insurance didn’t cover a new entire roof .

By the time the Stoke end development came along ground improvement regs together with ground improvement / development grants had started to kick in to try to improve grounds around the country that were beginning to look their age .( matching £ for £ spend by clubs with an upper limit ) . Though as you needed money in the first place lower league clubs often missed out

the Stoke end needed major works on crash barriers and exits just to retain a reduced capacity ..and far from the capacity experienced at the 40,000 + crowds in the 70s .. effectively the club with grants and their own investments from our own lottery could build a stand and paddock at the Stoke end with the approx capacity that major works on crush barriers and exits would bring for the same money

That's a very interesting post that explains a lot. As someone who started watching Stoke in the late 80s I can't remember the era or the construction of the new Stoke End. But it did always puzzle me how we were able to afford to rebuild the Stoke End only a few years after rebuilding the Butler Street roof when the Butler Street disaster was always portrayed as a cataclysmic event that ended our time as a leading club and led to decades of decline. If it had caused that much financial trouble, surely we wouldn't have been able to voluntarily undertake a major ground upgrade just 3 years later? This now explains things.

It's also interesting to hear about the insurance. The common myth has always been that Stoke, through either deliberate cost cutting to fund our team or incompetent oversight, had not insured the stand against storm damage and therefore had to pay the full costs for the replacement. Now we know there was insurance in place, but that they would only pay out for the damaged area not the full roof replacement that was needed. Did we scrimp on minimum insurance cover and pay the price? Did the insurance cover worm out of their obligations? Seems strange to set a pay out amount if repair of the damaged segment isn't possible. Usually the job of insurance is to ensure the full replacement of loss, so if repair isn't possible then it must replace. Which means they should either pay out the amount required to repair the damage, or pay for a full replacement if repair isn't possible or economically practical when compared with the cost of full replacement. Unless insurance worked differently in the 70s?

[lordb]

Mar 15, 2022 16:39:49 GMT SamB_SCFC said:

Mar 14, 2022 14:13:03 GMT Scouse said:

The club having pushed the boat out player purchase wise , needed European qualification to sustain that , Everton successfully appealing the one club one city rule stunted our revenue ..then along came the Butler street issue , problem was insurance would only pay for the damaged section , when effectively due to its age a patch or repair couldn’t be put on , or would prove uneconomical , meaning an entire new roof ( and the cost ) was needed .the insurance didn’t cover a new entire roof .

By the time the Stoke end development came along ground improvement regs together with ground improvement / development grants had started to kick in to try to improve grounds around the country that were beginning to look their age .( matching £ for £ spend by clubs with an upper limit ) . Though as you needed money in the first place lower league clubs often missed out

the Stoke end needed major works on crash barriers and exits just to retain a reduced capacity ..and far from the capacity experienced at the 40,000 + crowds in the 70s .. effectively the club with grants and their own investments from our own lottery could build a stand and paddock at the Stoke end with the approx capacity that major works on crush barriers and exits would bring for the same money

That's a very interesting post that explains a lot. As someone who started watching Stoke in the late 80s I can't remember the era or the construction of the new Stoke End. But it did always puzzle me how we were able to afford to rebuild the Stoke End only a few years after rebuilding the Butler Street roof when the Butler Street disaster was always portrayed as a cataclysmic event that ended our time as a leading club and led to decades of decline. If it had caused that much financial trouble, surely we wouldn't have been able to voluntarily undertake a major ground upgrade just 3 years later? This now explains things.

It's also interesting to hear about the insurance. The common myth has always been that Stoke, through either deliberate cost cutting to fund our team or incompetent oversight, had not insured the stand against storm damage and therefore had to pay the full costs for the replacement. Now we know there was insurance in place, but that they would only pay out for the damaged area not the full roof replacement that was needed. Did we scrimp on minimum insurance cover and pay the price? Did the insurance cover worm out of their obligations? Seems strange to set a pay out amount if repair of the damaged segment isn't possible. Usually the job of insurance is to ensure the full replacement of loss, so if repair isn't possible then it must replace. Which means they should either pay out the amount required to repair the damage, or pay for a full replacement if repair isn't possible or economically practical when compared with the cost of full replacement. Unless insurance worked differently in the 70s?

yes we had insufficient insurance rather than no cover
bit like majority of people having ridiculously low contents cover for their home insurance

[AlliG]

Mar 15, 2022 16:39:49 GMT SamB_SCFC said:

Mar 14, 2022 14:13:03 GMT Scouse said:

The club having pushed the boat out player purchase wise , needed European qualification to sustain that , Everton successfully appealing the one club one city rule stunted our revenue ..then along came the Butler street issue , problem was insurance would only pay for the damaged section , when effectively due to its age a patch or repair couldn’t be put on , or would prove uneconomical , meaning an entire new roof ( and the cost ) was needed .the insurance didn’t cover a new entire roof .

By the time the Stoke end development came along ground improvement regs together with ground improvement / development grants had started to kick in to try to improve grounds around the country that were beginning to look their age .( matching £ for £ spend by clubs with an upper limit ) . Though as you needed money in the first place lower league clubs often missed out

the Stoke end needed major works on crash barriers and exits just to retain a reduced capacity ..and far from the capacity experienced at the 40,000 + crowds in the 70s .. effectively the club with grants and their own investments from our own lottery could build a stand and paddock at the Stoke end with the approx capacity that major works on crush barriers and exits would bring for the same money

That's a very interesting post that explains a lot. As someone who started watching Stoke in the late 80s I can't remember the era or the construction of the new Stoke End. But it did always puzzle me how we were able to afford to rebuild the Stoke End only a few years after rebuilding the Butler Street roof when the Butler Street disaster was always portrayed as a cataclysmic event that ended our time as a leading club and led to decades of decline. If it had caused that much financial trouble, surely we wouldn't have been able to voluntarily undertake a major ground upgrade just 3 years later? This now explains things.

It's also interesting to hear about the insurance. The common myth has always been that Stoke, through either deliberate cost cutting to fund our team or incompetent oversight, had not insured the stand against storm damage and therefore had to pay the full costs for the replacement. Now we know there was insurance in place, but that they would only pay out for the damaged area not the full roof replacement that was needed. Did we scrimp on minimum insurance cover and pay the price? Did the insurance cover worm out of their obligations? Seems strange to set a pay out amount if repair of the damaged segment isn't possible. Usually the job of insurance is to ensure the full replacement of loss, so if repair isn't possible then it must replace. Which means they should either pay out the amount required to repair the damage, or pay for a full replacement if repair isn't possible or economically practical when compared with the cost of full replacement. Unless insurance worked differently in the 70s?

Insurance did work differently in the 1970s.

For a start there was a Commercial Fire Tariff in place until the early 1980s, which meant that all the major Insurance Companies had to charge the same rates and use similar wordings. If you wanted to give a "special" discount there was a ruddy great form to be completed and submitted to the Fire Offices Committee in Liverpool for consideration.

Reinstatement (as new) cover might be the norm nowadays, but back then it was relatively rare, especially for Commercial property.

Most cover would have been arranged on an Indemnity basis (paid what it was worth at the time of damage not what it would cost to rebuild subject to any reductions due to under insurance).

Even the application of "Average" was different. Nowadays most policies will have some form of automatic index linking of sums insured and as long as the sum insured is within 85% Average will not usually apply.

That would not have been the case in 1976.

It also wouldn't surprise me if the club hadn't arranged their own insurances directly with the Insurance Company, as a large number of sizeable businesses did at the time, so that the club or directors could take the commission. (If all Companies were charging very similar prices there was very little incentive to pay an insurance broker. I know for a fact that a number of Stoke-on-Trent's largest businesses dealt directly with their Insurance Companies in the 1970s).