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Post by iancransonsknees on Feb 8, 2023 10:17:14 GMT
There isn't a football club in the country I suspect who would turn down the chance of signing a player who is better than their level on the cheap. Ched Evans didn't have a problem (I know his conviction was quashed but on evidence which was a bit dodgy). Lee Hughes made a good career for himself after being released from prison for killing someone through dangerous driving. I can see the argument that they served their punishment but I object to them being given the opportunity to make good money in a high profile job. Start again in a job where you won't be on public view. Good on Val Mcdermid and Raith Rovers supporters. If you commit a crime which effects someone's life you should suffer the consequences for the rest of your life just as the victims and their families do. Sorry but that makes no sense. Let's say a talented artist is locked up for x years for a heinous act. Are you saying when he comes out he should be allowed to paint houses but not lucrative artwork? A player who has served their punishment and is free to ply their trade (not banned/suspended, etc) should be allowed to ply their trade, not be forced to be a janitor. The big question for me is if the guilty verdict is in a civil court, why on earth would he not be prosecuted in a criminal court? Perhaps there is more to the story than would stand intense scrutiny? Are we all going out buying Rolf Harris paintings and Gary Glitter records now then 🤷🤔
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Post by st3mark on Feb 8, 2023 10:29:25 GMT
Sorry but that makes no sense. Let's say a talented artist is locked up for x years for a heinous act. Are you saying when he comes out he should be allowed to paint houses but not lucrative artwork? A player who has served their punishment and is free to ply their trade (not banned/suspended, etc) should be allowed to ply their trade, not be forced to be a janitor. The big question for me is if the guilty verdict is in a civil court, why on earth would he not be prosecuted in a criminal court? Perhaps there is more to the story than would stand intense scrutiny? Are we all going out buying Rolf Harris paintings and Gary Glitter records now then 🤷🤔 Rock and Roll part 2?! I think its more weird if you don't listen to that song in secret. 😉
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Post by flea79 on Feb 8, 2023 10:38:46 GMT
Sorry but that makes no sense. Let's say a talented artist is locked up for x years for a heinous act. Are you saying when he comes out he should be allowed to paint houses but not lucrative artwork? A player who has served their punishment and is free to ply their trade (not banned/suspended, etc) should be allowed to ply their trade, not be forced to be a janitor. The big question for me is if the guilty verdict is in a civil court, why on earth would he not be prosecuted in a criminal court? Perhaps there is more to the story than would stand intense scrutiny? Are we all going out buying Rolf Harris paintings and Gary Glitter records now then 🤷🤔 i was watching an old Bernard Manning tape on youtube the other week and this was either late 80's or early 90's and he basically outed Rolf as a nonce then, told a joke about how his mum thought he was a painter and decorator then had a bit of a rant about what a dirty bastard he was and two little boys song sorry well off topic back to the drumhead trial that is being held here!
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 8, 2023 10:40:53 GMT
Short and sweet.....
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Post by st3mark on Feb 8, 2023 10:50:09 GMT
Are we all going out buying Rolf Harris paintings and Gary Glitter records now then 🤷🤔 i was watching an old Bernard Manning tape on youtube the other week and this was either late 80's or early 90's and he basically outed Rolf as a nonce then, told a joke about how his mum thought he was a painter and decorator then had a bit of a rant about what a dirty bastard he was and two little boys song sorry well off topic back to the drumhead trial that is being held here! Bernard was the quickest and most well crafted comedian there ever was. Obvious controversy around him, but a genius all the same.
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Post by st3mark on Feb 8, 2023 11:20:25 GMT
Very mixed feelings on this one. Actually not mixed feelings, I know my feelings about rapists. Multiple viewpoints might be a better description. Obviously we all hate rapists. At least we should. But if that video is anything to go by then there wasn't enough evidence to prove rape in 2011 and then 6 years later he admitted it in civil court. I'm not saying he's innocent but I wasn't involved so I don't know. If that accusation had followed me around for 6 years and it had driven me to the point of suicide for example I might be tempted to admit it in civil court and pay out just to put an end to it. Then there's the chance that he is guilty. A quick search of him shows he has a history of violence. So he's not exactly a good egg. Doesn't make him a rapist Obviously but it also doesn't make him appear a good character. Interestingly via the civil court he was ordered to pay 100k to the victim. Of which he has been unable to pay anything back having remained unemployed ever since. So when football fans think they are being noble and sticking to our morals the victim actually isn't getting paid. The stance fans are taking is about their own embarrassment of being associated with him rather than being focused on the victim. I'm a hypocrit though because I also wouldn't want him at this club and my instinct on this one probably is that he is guilty. But I wasn't there on the night, I wasn't there in court and I'm rarely comfortable condemning anyone forever without proper evidence. I haven't read much about this incident to be honest. If anyone has more insight or knowledge then I might feel more comfortable hating him. From quick Google searches it seems he was not likely to be guilty in criminal proceedings but was in civil court. Anyone with any experience in this area knows that they are two completely different worlds.
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Post by callas12 on Feb 8, 2023 12:30:17 GMT
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 8, 2023 12:39:23 GMT
Very mixed feelings on this one. Actually not mixed feelings, I know my feelings about rapists. Multiple viewpoints might be a better description. Obviously we all hate rapists. At least we should. But if that video is anything to go by then there wasn't enough evidence to prove rape in 2011 and then 6 years later he admitted it in civil court. I'm not saying he's innocent but I wasn't involved so I don't know. If that accusation had followed me around for 6 years and it had driven me to the point of suicide for example I might be tempted to admit it in civil court and pay out just to put an end to it. Then there's the chance that he is guilty. A quick search of him shows he has a history of violence. So he's not exactly a good egg. Doesn't make him a rapist Obviously but it also doesn't make him appear a good character. Interestingly via the civil court he was ordered to pay 100k to the victim. Of which he has been unable to pay anything back having remained unemployed ever since. So when football fans think they are being noble and sticking to our morals the victim actually isn't getting paid. The stance fans are taking is about their own embarrassment of being associated with him rather than being focused on the victim. I'm a hypocrit though because I also wouldn't want him at this club and my instinct on this one probably is that he is guilty. But I wasn't there on the night, I wasn't there in court and I'm rarely comfortable condemning anyone forever without proper evidence. I haven't read much about this incident to be honest. If anyone has more insight or knowledge then I might feel more comfortable hating him. From quick Google searches it seems he was not likely to be guilty in criminal proceedings but was in civil court. Anyone with any experience in this area knows that they are two completely different worlds. I agree with you. It's an uncomfortable dilemma but I said the same on the Mason Greenwood thread should people be allowed to earn a living or do we expect them just to sit around for the rest of their life? Now Goodwillie has probably got a few quid (I could be wrong) but if you forget that he's a footballer for a second and pretend he's a bricklayer the alternative to that person working, paying taxes and hopefully staying rehabilitated is probably a life of crime in and out of prison. Not sure how that benefit's anyone?
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Post by scfc75 on Feb 8, 2023 12:51:50 GMT
Very mixed feelings on this one. Actually not mixed feelings, I know my feelings about rapists. Multiple viewpoints might be a better description. Obviously we all hate rapists. At least we should. But if that video is anything to go by then there wasn't enough evidence to prove rape in 2011 and then 6 years later he admitted it in civil court. I'm not saying he's innocent but I wasn't involved so I don't know. If that accusation had followed me around for 6 years and it had driven me to the point of suicide for example I might be tempted to admit it in civil court and pay out just to put an end to it. Then there's the chance that he is guilty. A quick search of him shows he has a history of violence. So he's not exactly a good egg. Doesn't make him a rapist Obviously but it also doesn't make him appear a good character. Interestingly via the civil court he was ordered to pay 100k to the victim. Of which he has been unable to pay anything back having remained unemployed ever since. So when football fans think they are being noble and sticking to our morals the victim actually isn't getting paid. The stance fans are taking is about their own embarrassment of being associated with him rather than being focused on the victim. I'm a hypocrit though because I also wouldn't want him at this club and my instinct on this one probably is that he is guilty. But I wasn't there on the night, I wasn't there in court and I'm rarely comfortable condemning anyone forever without proper evidence. I haven't read much about this incident to be honest. If anyone has more insight or knowledge then I might feel more comfortable hating him. From quick Google searches it seems he was not likely to be guilty in criminal proceedings but was in civil court. Anyone with any experience in this area knows that they are two completely different worlds. I agree with you. It's an uncomfortable dilemma but I said the same on the Mason Greenwood thread should people be allowed to earn a living or do we expect them just to sit around for the rest of their life? Now Goodwillie has probably got a few quid (I could be wrong) but if you forget that he's a footballer for a second and pretend he's a bricklayer the alternative to that person working, paying taxes and hopefully staying rehabilitated is probably a life of crime in and out of prison. Not sure how that benefit's anyone? I think it comes from the notion that pro footballers are idolised, and that somebody with such a conviction shouldn’t be in a position where they can be role models or put on a pedestal. I get that, it’s not a great message, although as stated by others, once you’ve served your punishment does that mean you can’t then earn a living? It’s a difficult one no doubt.
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Post by st3mark on Feb 8, 2023 13:08:20 GMT
Very mixed feelings on this one. Actually not mixed feelings, I know my feelings about rapists. Multiple viewpoints might be a better description. Obviously we all hate rapists. At least we should. But if that video is anything to go by then there wasn't enough evidence to prove rape in 2011 and then 6 years later he admitted it in civil court. I'm not saying he's innocent but I wasn't involved so I don't know. If that accusation had followed me around for 6 years and it had driven me to the point of suicide for example I might be tempted to admit it in civil court and pay out just to put an end to it. Then there's the chance that he is guilty. A quick search of him shows he has a history of violence. So he's not exactly a good egg. Doesn't make him a rapist Obviously but it also doesn't make him appear a good character. Interestingly via the civil court he was ordered to pay 100k to the victim. Of which he has been unable to pay anything back having remained unemployed ever since. So when football fans think they are being noble and sticking to our morals the victim actually isn't getting paid. The stance fans are taking is about their own embarrassment of being associated with him rather than being focused on the victim. I'm a hypocrit though because I also wouldn't want him at this club and my instinct on this one probably is that he is guilty. But I wasn't there on the night, I wasn't there in court and I'm rarely comfortable condemning anyone forever without proper evidence. I haven't read much about this incident to be honest. If anyone has more insight or knowledge then I might feel more comfortable hating him. From quick Google searches it seems he was not likely to be guilty in criminal proceedings but was in civil court. Anyone with any experience in this area knows that they are two completely different worlds. I agree with you. It's an uncomfortable dilemma but I said the same on the Mason Greenwood thread should people be allowed to earn a living or do we expect them just to sit around for the rest of their life? Now Goodwillie has probably got a few quid (I could be wrong) but if you forget that he's a footballer for a second and pretend he's a bricklayer the alternative to that person working, paying taxes and hopefully staying rehabilitated is probably a life of crime in and out of prison. Not sure how that benefit's anyone? It doesn't benefit anyone. Regarding him having a few quid this saga has left him bankrupt and he can no longer work in his original profession. If I knew for a fact he was guilty I wouldn't feel sorry for him, but it still would bother me that the victim isn't getting compo because the offender can't work and therefore cant pay. Most footballers are qualified for zero else. So if he gets a job stocking shelves for an example he probably won't pay 100k off for the rest of his working life nor his victims. It's just a fucking mess basically. I'm not even sure serious crime should be lawfully examined in a civil court because it creates messes like this. If he's a guilty man then the victim isn't getting any benefit from the proceedings because he's not in jail and she's not received the money and if he's an innocent bloke then the criminal court have said he hasn't even got a case to answer yet he's now labelled a rapist by that court. This is a sad situation really where if there's a genuine victim they have received no real benefit and if its a false claim then someone's life is ruined. Its turned out to be a lose-lose situation.
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Post by st3mark on Feb 8, 2023 13:10:08 GMT
I agree with you. It's an uncomfortable dilemma but I said the same on the Mason Greenwood thread should people be allowed to earn a living or do we expect them just to sit around for the rest of their life? Now Goodwillie has probably got a few quid (I could be wrong) but if you forget that he's a footballer for a second and pretend he's a bricklayer the alternative to that person working, paying taxes and hopefully staying rehabilitated is probably a life of crime in and out of prison. Not sure how that benefit's anyone? I think it comes from the notion that pro footballers are idolised, and that somebody with such a conviction shouldn’t be in a position where they can be role models or put on a pedestal. I get that, it’s not a great message, although as stated by others, once you’ve served your punishment does that mean you can’t then earn a living? It’s a difficult one no doubt. Also by factual definition he hasn't actually got a conviction for it.
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Post by biddulphchav on Feb 8, 2023 13:35:01 GMT
I think it comes from the notion that pro footballers are idolised, and that somebody with such a conviction shouldn’t be in a position where they can be role models or put on a pedestal. I get that, it’s not a great message, although as stated by others, once you’ve served your punishment does that mean you can’t then earn a living? It’s a difficult one no doubt. Also by factual definition he hasn't actually got a conviction for it. That’s the key here, he has no criminal conviction. The only court that’s convicted him is the social media court of public opinion. Gone are the days when people respected institutions like justice system. Instead we listen to some half baked commentary on Facebook and make judgments based on how we feel. The world is fecked!
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Post by stokeuk474 on Feb 8, 2023 17:15:31 GMT
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Feb 8, 2023 18:39:03 GMT
Also by factual definition he hasn't actually got a conviction for it. That’s the key here, he has no criminal conviction. The only court that’s convicted him is the social media court of public opinion. Gone are the days when people respected institutions like justice system. Instead we listen to some half baked commentary on Facebook and make judgments based on how we feel. The world is fecked! He has several criminal convictions for assault so he has been judged by our justice system and he was able to pursue a career professional thousands of people dream of having on the back of it and still persisted on getting himself into trouble. He made several attempts to settle out of civil court which we turned down by Ms Clair who said the judgement in civil court was more important than any compensation she would receive and she still pursued the civil court case knowing they’d register for bankruptcy and she’d get nothing. He’s a free man, there’s nothing stopping him from getting any other job. But IMO it’s very easy to understand why clubs are facing backlash for signing in the current climate of sexual violence.
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Post by TinkerT on Feb 8, 2023 19:27:41 GMT
This blokes not been found guilty in a CRIMINAL court so should be allowed to carry on playing where ever he wants. We have the likes of luke mccormick, Lee Hughes,ched evans etc who were allowed to carry on playing after being found guilty. If that's the way it works maybe he should have pleaded guilty gone prison come out and carried on playing? The media and the PC brigade in this country is a absolute joke
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 8, 2023 19:47:43 GMT
This blokes not been found guilty in a CRIMINAL court so should be allowed to carry on playing where ever he wants. We have the likes of luke mccormick, Lee Hughes,ched evans etc who were allowed to carry on playing after being found guilty. If that's the way it works maybe he should have pleaded guilty gone prison come out and carried on playing? The media and the PC brigade in this country is a absolute joke Bloody PC brigade they get everywhere……
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Post by st3mark on Feb 8, 2023 19:47:55 GMT
That’s the key here, he has no criminal conviction. The only court that’s convicted him is the social media court of public opinion. Gone are the days when people respected institutions like justice system. Instead we listen to some half baked commentary on Facebook and make judgments based on how we feel. The world is fecked! He has several criminal convictions for assault so he has been judged by our justice system and he was able to pursue a career professional thousands of people dream of having on the back of it and still persisted on getting himself into trouble. He made several attempts to settle out of civil court which we turned down by Ms Clair who said the judgement in civil court was more important than any compensation she would receive and she still pursued the civil court case knowing they’d register for bankruptcy and she’d get nothing. He’s a free man, there’s nothing stopping him from getting any other job. But IMO it’s very easy to understand why clubs are facing backlash for signing in the current climate of sexual violence. The actual proven convictions of crimes against men the public don't care about. But they are irrelevant in proving whether someone has raped someone or not anyway. So he hasn't been found guilty of this in a criminal court. We can't have a society where people are guilty based on their previous reputation. If the victims' wish was as you suggest that she didn't want compensation then I'm glad she's not missing out. Although Ive seen nothing to suggest that this was the case.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 21:01:22 GMT
Say what you want but I wouldn't want a probable rapist playing for my club, whether it was civil court or criminal.
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Post by hoppo96 on Feb 8, 2023 21:11:35 GMT
He shouldn't play anymore. He has no god given right to earn a career playing football, indeed he can't be given a 'second chance' because he doesn't understand or acknowledge why he lost his first.
We live in a world where coppers are committing some awful crimes against women, where people like Andrew Tate lure in young boys to buy into their crap, I'm sorry but the idea we should let somebody found to be a rapist in a civil court just carry on playing is nonsensical. Playing football is a privilege, where else do middle aged men wear your surname on the back of their tight fitting shirts?
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Post by biddulphchav on Feb 10, 2023 5:26:20 GMT
That’s the key here, he has no criminal conviction. The only court that’s convicted him is the social media court of public opinion. Gone are the days when people respected institutions like justice system. Instead we listen to some half baked commentary on Facebook and make judgments based on how we feel. The world is fecked! He has several criminal convictions for assault so he has been judged by our justice system and he was able to pursue a career professional thousands of people dream of having on the back of it and still persisted on getting himself into trouble. He made several attempts to settle out of civil court which we turned down by Ms Clair who said the judgement in civil court was more important than any compensation she would receive and she still pursued the civil court case knowing they’d register for bankruptcy and she’d get nothing. He’s a free man, there’s nothing stopping him from getting any other job. But IMO it’s very easy to understand why clubs are facing backlash for signing in the current climate of sexual violence. All of that really is irrelevant in my opinion. The assault convictions I know nothing about, but if we set the bar there then they’ll be a lot more footballers out of work, and other ‘ordinary’ folk. The current climate around sexual violence should not result in clubs (or people for that matter) making judgments when the courts have either decided there is no case to answer or there isn’t enough evidence to prosecute in my opinion. The law is the law, and it can be changed but until it is we should respect it
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