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Post by metalhead on Jun 5, 2022 21:15:31 GMT
Having seen the video the male didn’t “fall” which interestingly is the route some of the media were going down even after seeing the footage. There’s plenty that the Met do wrong but this isn’t the case in my opinion with this tragic incident. The male clearly ran off after being tasered twice and jumped off the bridge. Thankfully the incident was caught by a passing motorist which should hopefully prevent the press going to town on the officers who from what I saw dealt with the incident as well as they could have done. I’m sure there’s some reporters / politicians who’ll be devastated they can’t go down the normal route that fits their agenda. By all accounts he was on the bridge with a screwdriver acting in a threatening manner. I’d say the bigger question is around what support was the poor devil getting re his mental health. As is often the case these sort of incidents are preventable if the person gets the right support from the right agencies. RIP to the chap that died and here’s hoping the officers get the support they need for trying to do the right thing. I'm curious to know whether the multiple Tasering approach is part of standard police training. I would have expected only the single use of a Taser to be permitted or even necessary. However, it's happening a lot more. The victim was either armed with a screwdriver or knife; I've read conflicting reports. He didn't deserve to die but he needed to be stopped and I believe the police did what was needed to protect the public.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 5, 2022 22:13:39 GMT
Having seen the video the male didn’t “fall” which interestingly is the route some of the media were going down even after seeing the footage. There’s plenty that the Met do wrong but this isn’t the case in my opinion with this tragic incident. The male clearly ran off after being tasered twice and jumped off the bridge. Thankfully the incident was caught by a passing motorist which should hopefully prevent the press going to town on the officers who from what I saw dealt with the incident as well as they could have done. I’m sure there’s some reporters / politicians who’ll be devastated they can’t go down the normal route that fits their agenda. By all accounts he was on the bridge with a screwdriver acting in a threatening manner. I’d say the bigger question is around what support was the poor devil getting re his mental health. As is often the case these sort of incidents are preventable if the person gets the right support from the right agencies. RIP to the chap that died and here’s hoping the officers get the support they need for trying to do the right thing. I'm curious to know whether the multiple Tasering approach is part of standard police training. I would have expected only the single use of a Taser to be permitted or even necessary. However, it's happening a lot more. The victim was either armed with a screwdriver or knife; I've read conflicting reports. He didn't deserve to die but he needed to be stopped and I believe the police did what was needed to protect the public. I’m not sure to be honest but I think they can only fire 2-3 times max. I’m amazed that one barb wouldn’t be enough to stop the male but who knows what was going on with him mentally to keep him going and not giving himself up. It’s pretty traumatic viewing and must be awful for his family and the officers to see. From what I’ve seen it looks far more likely to be a mental health episode than him committing a crime. That said as you say the officers had to protect the public first and fouremost and what happened must have been the last thing the officers thought would happen.
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Post by foster on Jun 6, 2022 4:43:22 GMT
I'm curious to know whether the multiple Tasering approach is part of standard police training. I would have expected only the single use of a Taser to be permitted or even necessary. However, it's happening a lot more. The victim was either armed with a screwdriver or knife; I've read conflicting reports. He didn't deserve to die but he needed to be stopped and I believe the police did what was needed to protect the public. I’m not sure to be honest but I think they can only fire 2-3 times max. I’m amazed that one barb wouldn’t be enough to stop the male but who knows what was going on with him mentally to keep him going and not giving himself up. It’s pretty traumatic viewing and must be awful for his family and the officers to see. From what I’ve seen it looks far more likely to be a mental health episode than him committing a crime. That said as you say the officers had to protect the public first and fouremost and what happened must have been the last thing the officers thought would happen. They also have to protect themselves. Nothing wrong with this imo. The 2nd taser was when he swung out at an officer and the tasers clearly weren't enough to incapacitate him. It was the least deadly force they could have used.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 6, 2022 7:06:11 GMT
I’m not sure to be honest but I think they can only fire 2-3 times max. I’m amazed that one barb wouldn’t be enough to stop the male but who knows what was going on with him mentally to keep him going and not giving himself up. It’s pretty traumatic viewing and must be awful for his family and the officers to see. From what I’ve seen it looks far more likely to be a mental health episode than him committing a crime. That said as you say the officers had to protect the public first and fouremost and what happened must have been the last thing the officers thought would happen. They also have to protect themselves. Nothing wrong with this imo. The 2nd taser was when he swung out at an officer and the tasers clearly weren't enough to incapacitate him. It was the least deadly force they could have used. I agree with most of that, there was one point after he dropped the weapon and was tasered though where there was a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him, don’t know the history of these two coppers but I’d guess they were relatively inexperienced and two different coppers with more about that would have made that judgement call at some point. Just very sad, it looks like a mental health issue but we shall see…….
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Post by xchpotter on Jun 6, 2022 16:22:15 GMT
They also have to protect themselves. Nothing wrong with this imo. The 2nd taser was when he swung out at an officer and the tasers clearly weren't enough to incapacitate him. It was the least deadly force they could have used. I agree with most of that, there was one point after he dropped the weapon and was tasered though where there was a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him, don’t know the history of these two coppers but I’d guess they were relatively inexperienced and two different coppers with more about that would have made that judgement call at some point. Just very sad, it looks like a mental health issue but we shall see……. Except there wasn’t a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him. When the copper got his handcuffs out to attempt this he swung at the officer so was still offering violence. Bearing in mind he was armed with a screw driver to start with and only dropped it on Taser, there was no way to say he didn’t have a further weapon concealed that could’ve been accessed as the officer moved in. He was under the control of Taser, no point in exposing the officer to more risk and even as he jumped to the barrier of the bridge he took another swing at the officer. He was not giving up without violence and It’s not that simple to go and cuff a violent person. Control has to be obtained to start with and considering this was a man who had been armed with an implement and who was continuing to offer violence, the methods used were entirely appropriate. More experienced officers would’ve dealt with it in the same way.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 6, 2022 16:23:19 GMT
I agree with most of that, there was one point after he dropped the weapon and was tasered though where there was a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him, don’t know the history of these two coppers but I’d guess they were relatively inexperienced and two different coppers with more about that would have made that judgement call at some point. Just very sad, it looks like a mental health issue but we shall see……. Except there wasn’t a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him. When the copper got his handcuffs out to attempt this he swung at the officer so was still offering violence. Bearing in mind he was armed with a screw driver to start with and only dropped it on Taser, there was no way to say he didn’t have a further weapon concealed that could’ve been accessed as the officer moved in. He was under the control of Taser, no point in exposing the officer to more risk and even as he jumped to the barrier of the bridge he took another swing at the officer. He was not giving up without violence and It’s not that simple to go and cuff a violent person. Control has to be obtained to start with and considering this was a man who had been armed with an implement and who was continuing to offer violence, the methods used were entirely appropriate. More experienced officers would’ve dealt with it in the same way. I disagree, one of my mates who's an ex-copper said the same also.......
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 6, 2022 17:02:09 GMT
Except there wasn’t a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him. When the copper got his handcuffs out to attempt this he swung at the officer so was still offering violence. Bearing in mind he was armed with a screw driver to start with and only dropped it on Taser, there was no way to say he didn’t have a further weapon concealed that could’ve been accessed as the officer moved in. He was under the control of Taser, no point in exposing the officer to more risk and even as he jumped to the barrier of the bridge he took another swing at the officer. He was not giving up without violence and It’s not that simple to go and cuff a violent person. Control has to be obtained to start with and considering this was a man who had been armed with an implement and who was continuing to offer violence, the methods used were entirely appropriate. More experienced officers would’ve dealt with it in the same way. I disagree, one of my mates who's an ex-copper said the same also....... I’m with XCH on this. Taser is generally a safe way of dealing with someone violent. Usually it’s immediate in stopping the aggressor and prevents a role around or the close quarter injuries you’d get from an asp. As XH said the officers didn’t know what else the male was carrying so keeping a safe distance while he was still being aggressive rather than entering his fighting arc is risky and could have resulted in the officer being stabbed especially if he had a machete hidden inside his clothing. Plus it prevents the escalation of others getting involved or the usual suspects filming the incident then editing it to suit their agenda when it looks potentially more violent. Hindsight is a great thing and it’s easy to criticise after the event but when you’re dealing with someone who you know little about risk is something that’s constantly changing. From the responses on the incident I’d say quite rightly most comments are supportive of the officers actions. I’m just pleased for the officers that there’s such good footage of the incident because you can imagine how the press and those who dislike the police licking their lips would be all over what happened if it was based on a witness description only. Theirs plenty to criticise the met on this isn’t such a case.
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Post by xchpotter on Jun 6, 2022 18:05:07 GMT
Except there wasn’t a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him. When the copper got his handcuffs out to attempt this he swung at the officer so was still offering violence. Bearing in mind he was armed with a screw driver to start with and only dropped it on Taser, there was no way to say he didn’t have a further weapon concealed that could’ve been accessed as the officer moved in. He was under the control of Taser, no point in exposing the officer to more risk and even as he jumped to the barrier of the bridge he took another swing at the officer. He was not giving up without violence and It’s not that simple to go and cuff a violent person. Control has to be obtained to start with and considering this was a man who had been armed with an implement and who was continuing to offer violence, the methods used were entirely appropriate. More experienced officers would’ve dealt with it in the same way. I disagree, one of my mates who's an ex-copper said the same also....... We will have to agree to disagree. Funnily enough I’ve discussed it with coppers who are still serving and some of whom are personal safety and Taser instructors and they would disagree with your and your ex copper mates view. They train this stuff to a national standard and I’d rather go with their professional opinion and judgement.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 6, 2022 18:33:45 GMT
I disagree, one of my mates who's an ex-copper said the same also....... We will have to agree to disagree. Funnily enough I’ve discussed it with coppers who are still serving and some of whom are personal safety and Taser instructors and they would disagree with your and your ex copper mates view. They train this stuff to a national standard and I’d rather go with their professional opinion and judgement. As you are more than entitled do……
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 23, 2022 22:54:07 GMT
I agree with most of that, there was one point after he dropped the weapon and was tasered though where there was a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him, don’t know the history of these two coppers but I’d guess they were relatively inexperienced and two different coppers with more about that would have made that judgement call at some point. Just very sad, it looks like a mental health issue but we shall see……. Except there wasn’t a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him. When the copper got his handcuffs out to attempt this he swung at the officer so was still offering violence. Bearing in mind he was armed with a screw driver to start with and only dropped it on Taser, there was no way to say he didn’t have a further weapon concealed that could’ve been accessed as the officer moved in. He was under the control of Taser, no point in exposing the officer to more risk and even as he jumped to the barrier of the bridge he took another swing at the officer. He was not giving up without violence and It’s not that simple to go and cuff a violent person. Control has to be obtained to start with and considering this was a man who had been armed with an implement and who was continuing to offer violence, the methods used were entirely appropriate. More experienced officers would’ve dealt with it in the same way. No he wasn't..........
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 23, 2022 23:15:29 GMT
Except there wasn’t a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him. When the copper got his handcuffs out to attempt this he swung at the officer so was still offering violence. Bearing in mind he was armed with a screw driver to start with and only dropped it on Taser, there was no way to say he didn’t have a further weapon concealed that could’ve been accessed as the officer moved in. He was under the control of Taser, no point in exposing the officer to more risk and even as he jumped to the barrier of the bridge he took another swing at the officer. He was not giving up without violence and It’s not that simple to go and cuff a violent person. Control has to be obtained to start with and considering this was a man who had been armed with an implement and who was continuing to offer violence, the methods used were entirely appropriate. More experienced officers would’ve dealt with it in the same way. No he wasn't.......... I believe that it has now been identified as one of those lighters with the plastic handles which from a distance could me mistakingly identified as a screwdriver. My understanding is that when the call came in it was reported as being a screwdriver by the witness.
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Post by xchpotter on Jun 24, 2022 5:37:53 GMT
Except there wasn’t a clear opportunity to cuff and contain him. When the copper got his handcuffs out to attempt this he swung at the officer so was still offering violence. Bearing in mind he was armed with a screw driver to start with and only dropped it on Taser, there was no way to say he didn’t have a further weapon concealed that could’ve been accessed as the officer moved in. He was under the control of Taser, no point in exposing the officer to more risk and even as he jumped to the barrier of the bridge he took another swing at the officer. He was not giving up without violence and It’s not that simple to go and cuff a violent person. Control has to be obtained to start with and considering this was a man who had been armed with an implement and who was continuing to offer violence, the methods used were entirely appropriate. More experienced officers would’ve dealt with it in the same way. No he wasn't.......... So it turns out. I note the initial reports to the Met were that it was a screwdriver so that’s what would’ve formed part of the officers assessment as they attended. The video footage looks like a screwdriver from what I’ve seen. I can’t visualise this metal and plastic firefighter thing exactly, unless it was one of those with a butane insert that clicks and gives a flame to light your cooker. Anyway, if it was I can understand how from a distance and together with the initial information it was a screw driver, how it may have been believed to be one by the officer. The officer’s belief at the time, not a 9 o clock jury with the benefit of hindsight, is what may see them in bother or not. This is the thing, some people do jobs that have risk involved, that require instant decisions to be made on the information at hand at the time, that have tremendous responsibility. Some people don’t because they can’t or don’t want those things in a job and are much happier sitting in their safe world knowing others will keep it that way for them. That’s fine, each unto their own, but those who keep others safe know it’s a thankless task sometimes and that the very people they are their to keep safe can quite often be the ones offering the greatest criticism without having walked in their shoes. It’s something they and their families accept and know that sometimes the only thing that will satisfy some of those who criticise so readily is when one of them doesn’t come home from work one day. They accept it, but that’s what sets them apart and I’m thankful for their efforts if others aren’t.
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Post by franklin on Jun 24, 2022 6:08:42 GMT
Just a point on the taser, both barbs have to be "attached" to the subjects body (not clothing) to complete the electrical circuit. One barb will not work as no circuit is formed so it's entirely common to discharge a second time if the first fails and officers are trained to be able to fire multiple times . My taser was a single cartridge and if the first failed you had to manually remove the first and insert a second and so on, things have moved on and there are cartridges with upto three sets of barbs that can be fired at the subject if they miss or fail.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 24, 2022 6:41:30 GMT
So it turns out. I note the initial reports to the Met were that it was a screwdriver so that’s what would’ve formed part of the officers assessment as they attended. The video footage looks like a screwdriver from what I’ve seen. I can’t visualise this metal and plastic firefighter thing exactly, unless it was one of those with a butane insert that clicks and gives a flame to light your cooker. Anyway, if it was I can understand how from a distance and together with the initial information it was a screw driver, how it may have been believed to be one by the officer. The officer’s belief at the time, not a 9 o clock jury with the benefit of hindsight, is what may see them in bother or not. This is the thing, some people do jobs that have risk involved, that require instant decisions to be made on the information at hand at the time, that have tremendous responsibility. Some people don’t because they can’t or don’t want those things in a job and are much happier sitting in their safe world knowing others will keep it that way for them. That’s fine, each unto their own, but those who keep others safe know it’s a thankless task sometimes and that the very people they are their to keep safe can quite often be the ones offering the greatest criticism without having walked in their shoes. It’s something they and their families accept and know that sometimes the only thing that will satisfy some of those who criticise so readily is when one of them doesn’t come home from work one day. They accept it, but that’s what sets them apart and I’m thankful for their efforts if others aren’t. There’s another possibility you missed off, that some coppers just aren’t very good at their jobs……
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 24, 2022 7:15:18 GMT
So it turns out. I note the initial reports to the Met were that it was a screwdriver so that’s what would’ve formed part of the officers assessment as they attended. The video footage looks like a screwdriver from what I’ve seen. I can’t visualise this metal and plastic firefighter thing exactly, unless it was one of those with a butane insert that clicks and gives a flame to light your cooker. Anyway, if it was I can understand how from a distance and together with the initial information it was a screw driver, how it may have been believed to be one by the officer. The officer’s belief at the time, not a 9 o clock jury with the benefit of hindsight, is what may see them in bother or not. This is the thing, some people do jobs that have risk involved, that require instant decisions to be made on the information at hand at the time, that have tremendous responsibility. Some people don’t because they can’t or don’t want those things in a job and are much happier sitting in their safe world knowing others will keep it that way for them. That’s fine, each unto their own, but those who keep others safe know it’s a thankless task sometimes and that the very people they are their to keep safe can quite often be the ones offering the greatest criticism without having walked in their shoes. It’s something they and their families accept and know that sometimes the only thing that will satisfy some of those who criticise so readily is when one of them doesn’t come home from work one day. They accept it, but that’s what sets them apart and I’m thankful for their efforts if others aren’t. There’s another possibility you missed off, that some coppers just aren’t very good at their jobs…… Hindsight is obviously a great thing but how would you have dealt with the situation if you were called to it? Bearing in mind that there are a number of unknown factors that haven’t been published yet - The exact details of the call. - The previous record of the male. Was he known for violence, assaulting officers, carrying knives which were hidden on him. - What happened prior to the video starting. - what caused the initial call to be made. - What had the male said to the officers eg “if you don’t leave me alone i’m going to stab you, others or myself and jump in to the river.” - Were there any other officers on their way? - What was known of the poor chaps mental health? - Had he taken drugs? - Did they know anything about him? Additionally add to that the factor that a taser is one of the safest ways to disarm someone from a distance in a way that would usually render someone defenceless very quickly without causing them the injuries a baton would especially if the person is believed to be armed. From watching the video the second officer did try to handcuff the male after the first taser was released but he appeared to lunge at him. Bearing that in mind it’s a bit judgemental to say they’re not very good at there jobs especially as you don’t know their experience and how long they’ve been on the streets. Like any job people have to learn before being written off as “not very good.”
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Post by franklin on Jun 24, 2022 10:18:01 GMT
So it turns out. I note the initial reports to the Met were that it was a screwdriver so that’s what would’ve formed part of the officers assessment as they attended. The video footage looks like a screwdriver from what I’ve seen. I can’t visualise this metal and plastic firefighter thing exactly, unless it was one of those with a butane insert that clicks and gives a flame to light your cooker. Anyway, if it was I can understand how from a distance and together with the initial information it was a screw driver, how it may have been believed to be one by the officer. The officer’s belief at the time, not a 9 o clock jury with the benefit of hindsight, is what may see them in bother or not. This is the thing, some people do jobs that have risk involved, that require instant decisions to be made on the information at hand at the time, that have tremendous responsibility. Some people don’t because they can’t or don’t want those things in a job and are much happier sitting in their safe world knowing others will keep it that way for them. That’s fine, each unto their own, but those who keep others safe know it’s a thankless task sometimes and that the very people they are their to keep safe can quite often be the ones offering the greatest criticism without having walked in their shoes. It’s something they and their families accept and know that sometimes the only thing that will satisfy some of those who criticise so readily is when one of them doesn’t come home from work one day. They accept it, but that’s what sets them apart and I’m thankful for their efforts if others aren’t. There’s another possibility you missed off, that some coppers just aren’t very good at their jobs…… Not specifically aimed at this case but I do agree there are some who are not up to the job absolutely. There are some who've been sacked or otherwise dismissed like resignation because they are incompetent and/or committed a crime however the vast majority are competent hard working and decent people. There is also a small number who themselves recognise its not for them and leave of their own free will which I've also seen in my own career.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 25, 2022 16:22:18 GMT
There’s another possibility you missed off, that some coppers just aren’t very good at their jobs…… Not specifically aimed at this case but I do agree there are some who are not up to the job absolutely. There are some who've been sacked or otherwise dismissed like resignation because they are incompetent and/or committed a crime however the vast majority are competent hard working and decent people. There is also a small number who themselves recognise its not for them and leave of their own free will which I've also seen in my own career. spot on.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 8, 2022 19:52:57 GMT
New commissioner named Mark Rowley. Tough job ahead.
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Post by metalhead on Jul 8, 2022 22:06:59 GMT
New commissioner named Mark Rowley. Tough job ahead. Well, I must say I can't stand the fucking look of the guy I appreciate you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but he just looks like your typical smarmy cunt. He'll soon be giving plenty of interviews on why stamping on people's heads is okay if you're a Met copper.
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Post by metalhead on Jul 14, 2022 22:43:10 GMT
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Post by franklin on Jul 15, 2022 10:18:54 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 15, 2022 12:40:43 GMT
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Post by thewonderstuff on Aug 22, 2022 19:12:40 GMT
Another day another Met fiasco
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 23, 2022 16:17:31 GMT
Another day another Met fiasco What’s more worrying Is they wasted the use of fifty officers watching thousands of hours off cctv coverage Somehow arresting two for murder and three for kidnapping Only for her to be shacked up safe and well in Hampshire Personally I’d charge her and whoever was in charge of the investigation for wasting police time I wonder if the same resources are used for every missing person
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Post by thewonderstuff on Aug 23, 2022 16:28:15 GMT
Another day another Met fiasco What’s more worrying Is they wasted the use of fifty officers watching thousands of hours off cctv coverage Somehow arresting two for murder and three for kidnapping Only for her to be shacked up safe and well in Hampshire Personally I’d charge her and whoever was in charge of the investigation for wasting police time I wonder if the same resources are used for every missing person Wow.
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 23, 2022 16:38:48 GMT
What’s more worrying Is they wasted the use of fifty officers watching thousands of hours off cctv coverage Somehow arresting two for murder and three for kidnapping Only for her to be shacked up safe and well in Hampshire Personally I’d charge her and whoever was in charge of the investigation for wasting police time I wonder if the same resources are used for every missing person Wow. Wow ?
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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 23, 2022 17:24:34 GMT
Another day another Met fiasco What’s more worrying Is they wasted the use of fifty officers watching thousands of hours off cctv coverage Somehow arresting two for murder and three for kidnapping Only for her to be shacked up safe and well in Hampshire Personally I’d charge her and whoever was in charge of the investigation for wasting police time I wonder if the same resources are used for every missing person I agree
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Post by thewonderstuff on Aug 23, 2022 17:57:44 GMT
What’s more worrying Is they wasted the use of fifty officers watching thousands of hours off cctv coverage Somehow arresting two for murder and three for kidnapping Only for her to be shacked up safe and well in Hampshire Personally I’d charge her and whoever was in charge of the investigation for wasting police time I wonder if the same resources are used for every missing person I agree I'll just be kind to you both and conclude you haven't read the background of the case Congrats though, you are both ahead of The Met in terms of knowing what prompted her disappearance and also knowing she has committed a crime. Maybe you should both give them a ring with the evidence you've got?
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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 23, 2022 18:00:09 GMT
I'll just be kind to you both and conclude you haven't read the background of the case Congrats though, you are both ahead of The Met in terms of knowing what prompted her disappearance and also knowing she has committed a crime. Maybe you should both give them a ring with the evidence you've got? Conclude what you like mate, doesn't make it or anything else you say correct though
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Post by thewonderstuff on Aug 23, 2022 18:02:26 GMT
I'll just be kind to you both and conclude you haven't read the background of the case Congrats though, you are both ahead of The Met in terms of knowing what prompted her disappearance and also knowing she has committed a crime. Maybe you should both give them a ring with the evidence you've got? Conclude what you like mate, doesn't make it or anything else you say correct though Have you rung them yet?
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