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Post by andystokey on Dec 10, 2021 11:28:28 GMT
I think you said above you "know nothing about my circumstances" or words to that effect. I'll happily tell you but the piunt of this thread is the futility of believing in the Covid Pass. All season we have shared the concourse with thousands of fellow Stokies with unknown Covid status. Then out of the blue to deflect from his own embarrassment Boris has us talking about this shite. Based on no new numbers to support anything. So let me ask you a couple of questions. Did you care before Wednesday who was at the ground? From next Wednesday would you rather sit next to a Covid Pass holder or a LFT passed person? If I failed a Covid test I would follow the rules and I already have. I know that vaccines dint stop Covid or transmission because I've had it afterwards. So that leaves me triple jabbed, Covid recovered and a LFT clear by Derby on the 30th. I'm the least of your worries fella. So you would isolate then. Excellent. That's all I was interested to know - thankyou for getting there (eventually). So are you going to answer mine? 😉 because we need to ask the question why we don't just have a single simpler rule that says "prove you don't have covid" The reason because its not about transmission or suppression of the virus. They still need to throw a bone to all those that got vaccinated in good faith via this ridiculous passport scheme. Which does nothing because if I'm desperate to watch the Derby game I could as you point out ignore the LFT grab my Covid Pass and off I go. So I repeat Who would you rather sit next to: A covid pass holder or a clear LFT holder?
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Post by femark on Dec 10, 2021 11:30:16 GMT
Even the most ardent SAGE scientists agree that vaccine passports do nothing to reduce infection or spread of disease. They only serve to nudge those without appropriate vaccine status in the direction of immunisation through removal of privilege. In return the government ultimately gets a potential win-win through increased vaccine take up or reduced attendance. Furthermore IF they manage to make it normal and it stays they have a state control tool to track crime and tax evasion. If like me you are a libertarian and hate the idea of the passport or you don't want to be part of a big data mapping exercise but want to enjoy life, the best solution is as follows: 1. Walk in to a pharmacy or work and collect a pack of LFT. Do not order online as the address is required. 2. Set up a web email account specifically to receive your lateral flow test results for free. 3. Take an LFT to attend the event you wish to, thus guaranteeing greater prevention than the vaccine passport holder sat next to you. 4. Print out the email with the negative result and carry the paper copy to your event. Vaccine Passports are a device that does nothing but promote vaccination. What do you think the government or any other organisation are going to do with the information? The app is linked to your NHS data that is already present. The only extra information they have is that you tested negative for COVID on a certain day.
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Post by femark on Dec 10, 2021 11:33:25 GMT
That's not true. If you follow the rules, after your positive LFT you would need to the get a PCR to confirm the result. If that comes back positive then you are unable to use the vaccine passport. I had covid about a month ago and went on the NHS app and it wouldn't let me access the "passport".
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Dec 10, 2021 11:44:37 GMT
You forgot Number 5 “I’m alright Jack and fuck everybody else” Mr Potato how does proving my lack of Covid 24h before a game mean "fuck everyone else". If there is any moral high ground I have it over the twits relying on a passport. For the record I have all three jabs but I won't be using the passport to prove I'm free of any disease because it would be incorrect. Do you take LFT’s at all now?
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Post by andystokey on Dec 10, 2021 11:49:19 GMT
That's not true. If you follow the rules, after your positive LFT you would need to the get a PCR to confirm the result. If that comes back positive then you are unable to use the vaccine passport. I had covid about a month ago and went on the NHS app and it wouldn't let me access the "passport". I have a printed one, I don't have app so I can reach for it right now and take it to the match and ignore the results of my LFT and not even submit them. Clearly I'm not advocating breaking the rules I'm pointing out the passport is pointless in this case.
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Post by andystokey on Dec 10, 2021 12:09:03 GMT
Even the most ardent SAGE scientists agree that vaccine passports do nothing to reduce infection or spread of disease. They only serve to nudge those without appropriate vaccine status in the direction of immunisation through removal of privilege. In return the government ultimately gets a potential win-win through increased vaccine take up or reduced attendance. Furthermore IF they manage to make it normal and it stays they have a state control tool to track crime and tax evasion. If like me you are a libertarian and hate the idea of the passport or you don't want to be part of a big data mapping exercise but want to enjoy life, the best solution is as follows: 1. Walk in to a pharmacy or work and collect a pack of LFT. Do not order online as the address is required. 2. Set up a web email account specifically to receive your lateral flow test results for free. 3. Take an LFT to attend the event you wish to, thus guaranteeing greater prevention than the vaccine passport holder sat next to you. 4. Print out the email with the negative result and carry the paper copy to your event. Vaccine Passports are a device that does nothing but promote vaccination. What do you think the government or any other organisation are going to do with the information? The app is linked to your NHS data that is already present. The only extra information they have is that you tested negative for COVID on a certain day. Remember in the 80s how congestion charge camera legislation deemed that information could not be used for all but the most serious crimes, terrorism by example, and data was not allowed to be transferred from TfL to law enforcement? Perhaps you are too young to remember the original legislation. However that ANPR data and photography is now routinely and freely available. The QR code on your Covid pass contains tamper resistance, date time information and identity information that the scanner device can present to any holder of the scanner to be used for secondary identification even when the scanner is offline e.g check the name against a drivers licence. Whether it is currently used by those door staff or not. Once back online the scanner id records the event by date/time, by identity of the person allegedly in order to track and trace spreader events. The scanner holders are simply the location tags. Meanwhile your NHS data is simultaneously and currently being negotiated to be available to private companies as well as other government agencies. Although currently delayed there is only one direction of travel. Cue the "if you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" defence.
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 10, 2021 12:09:30 GMT
I am assuming everyone who believes it is their social responsibility to be vaccinated will also take a LFT test before going to the game? Surely, it would be extremely negligent and somewhat hypocritical not to do so based on the clear evidence that vaccination does not prevent spreading of the virus.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Dec 10, 2021 12:12:29 GMT
So you would isolate then. Excellent. That's all I was interested to know - thankyou for getting there (eventually). So are you going to answer mine? 😉 because we need to ask the question why we don't just have a single simpler rule that says "prove you don't have covid" The reason because its not about transmission or suppression of the virus. They still need to throw a bone to all those that got vaccinated in good faith via this ridiculous passport scheme. Which does nothing because if I'm desperate to watch the Derby game I could as you point out ignore the LFT grab my Covid Pass and off I go. So I repeat Who would you rather sit next to: A covid pass holder or a clear LFT holder? To be fair Andy that's not a debate I have partucularly entered into. However if you ask me straight - one or the other - then someone who has just tested negative or someone who hasn't taken a test then obviously the former. But that was as true yesterday as it is today as it will be tomorrow. I have not campaigned FOR covid passes and I'm not particularly pro. I'm not vehemently anti either (you don't have to be one or the other). As I said on another post what we have in terms of what has been applied is - I believe- the output of a negotiation of competing interests - and no doubt a buggers muddle. Nevertheless the situation we have in the UK now is probably one of the most open societies in covid terms as anywhere else in europe - we're far less impacted than many. Yes there are things I don't like - the Covid Act itself for one the corruption for another - and I guess we can all choose our red lines - and if it's the Covid Pass to get into the Derby game for you then fine. It isn't for me.
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Post by yyy on Dec 10, 2021 12:24:54 GMT
Even putin says omicron could be a natural vaccine to delta. So do several medical experts. I'd trust putin more readily than our clowns anyday of the week Seriously ? You trust Putin....? I rest my case..... Im glad Ive still got my common sense to use. 😆 With all due respect mate people are taking health advice and orders from boris johnson & Co. You need a topping up jab for common sense too by the looks of it
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 10, 2021 12:33:59 GMT
I am assuming everyone who believes it is their social responsibility to be vaccinated will also take a LFT test before going to the game? Surely, it would be extremely negligent and somewhat hypocritical not to do so based on the clear evidence that vaccination does not prevent spreading of the virus. Yes me an my lad will as we have done every game and every family event etc where we all congregate. We’ve got that many boxes of them may as well put them to good use!!
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Post by andystokey on Dec 10, 2021 12:53:42 GMT
So are you going to answer mine? 😉 because we need to ask the question why we don't just have a single simpler rule that says "prove you don't have covid" The reason because its not about transmission or suppression of the virus. They still need to throw a bone to all those that got vaccinated in good faith via this ridiculous passport scheme. Which does nothing because if I'm desperate to watch the Derby game I could as you point out ignore the LFT grab my Covid Pass and off I go. So I repeat Who would you rather sit next to: A covid pass holder or a clear LFT holder? To be fair Andy that's not a debate I have partucularly entered into. However if you ask me straight - one or the other - then someone who has just tested negative or someone who hasn't taken a test then obviously the former. But that was as true yesterday as it is today as it will be tomorrow. I have not campaigned FOR covid passes and I'm not particularly pro. I'm not vehemently anti either (you don't have to be one or the other). As I said on another post what we have in terms of what has been applied is - I believe- the output of a negotiation of competing interests - and no doubt a buggers muddle. Nevertheless the situation we have in the UK now is probably one of the most open societies in covid terms as anywhere else in europe - we're far less impacted than many. Yes there are things I don't like - the Covid Act itself for one the corruption for another - and I guess we can all choose our red lines - and if it's the Covid Pass to get into the Derby game for you then fine. It isn't for me. Just to be clear it's not OK for me either and your answer sounds very Libertarian to me. 😉 Less rules and if you have to then choose the fewer most effective ones. I've narrowed myself down to two choices on 30th Dec. 1. I don't go because I think being complicit is the part of the problem. Although this stinks of "cut my nose off" 2. Go on my own terms, without giving the government anything and looking after my fellow Stokies. Maybe paper based LFT. So I definitely won't be using the pass.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 10, 2021 12:59:05 GMT
Does this virus only wreck havoc on 1st World countries, why haven’t India, parts of Asia and Africa not been completely overwhelmed especially given their extraordinarily low vax rates.
Why aren’t we seeing more questions as to why this is the case?
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 10, 2021 13:01:57 GMT
So are you going to answer mine? 😉 because we need to ask the question why we don't just have a single simpler rule that says "prove you don't have covid" The reason because its not about transmission or suppression of the virus. They still need to throw a bone to all those that got vaccinated in good faith via this ridiculous passport scheme. Which does nothing because if I'm desperate to watch the Derby game I could as you point out ignore the LFT grab my Covid Pass and off I go. So I repeat Who would you rather sit next to: A covid pass holder or a clear LFT holder? To be fair Andy that's not a debate I have partucularly entered into. However if you ask me straight - one or the other - then someone who has just tested negative or someone who hasn't taken a test then obviously the former. But that was as true yesterday as it is today as it will be tomorrow. I have not campaigned FOR covid passes and I'm not particularly pro. I'm not vehemently anti either (you don't have to be one or the other). As I said on another post what we have in terms of what has been applied is - I believe- the output of a negotiation of competing interests - and no doubt a buggers muddle. Nevertheless the situation we have in the UK now is probably one of the most open societies in covid terms as anywhere else in europe - we're far less impacted than many. Yes there are things I don't like - the Covid Act itself for one the corruption for another - and I guess we can all choose our red lines - and if it's the Covid Pass to get into the Derby game for you then fine. It isn't for me. As a matter of interest SB what would be your red line?
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Post by dutchstokie on Dec 10, 2021 13:02:50 GMT
Seriously ? You trust Putin....? I rest my case..... Im glad Ive still got my common sense to use. 😆 With all due respect mate people are taking health advice and orders from boris johnson & Co. You need a topping up jab for common sense too by the looks of it Bit difficult living in Holland mate but I get your point Theyre jsut as bad over here with 'rules and regulations;.... I just do what I think is best for me now.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Dec 10, 2021 13:05:55 GMT
FFS can you and crouchpotato go and get a room or trying reading what I said. Just say 'yes' or 'no' and I will (though if CP is in there it won't leave much room for me). Do one🤣
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Post by adri2008 on Dec 10, 2021 13:07:31 GMT
Apparently the NHS App is joined up to the system where you report lateral flows (it generates a temporary Covid Pass) so if the government was actually interested in stopping the virus spreading it could simply insist on lateral flows before events. However that would then ruin the actual goal of Covid Passports: to annoy people enough into getting the vaccine and the booster and any further boosters they deem necessary.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Dec 10, 2021 13:21:26 GMT
To be fair Andy that's not a debate I have partucularly entered into. However if you ask me straight - one or the other - then someone who has just tested negative or someone who hasn't taken a test then obviously the former. But that was as true yesterday as it is today as it will be tomorrow. I have not campaigned FOR covid passes and I'm not particularly pro. I'm not vehemently anti either (you don't have to be one or the other). As I said on another post what we have in terms of what has been applied is - I believe- the output of a negotiation of competing interests - and no doubt a buggers muddle. Nevertheless the situation we have in the UK now is probably one of the most open societies in covid terms as anywhere else in europe - we're far less impacted than many. Yes there are things I don't like - the Covid Act itself for one the corruption for another - and I guess we can all choose our red lines - and if it's the Covid Pass to get into the Derby game for you then fine. It isn't for me. As a matter of interest SB what would be your red line? Probably mandatory vaccinations, the Covid Act being extended indefinitely or beyond 'reasonable' or a further full lockdown. With regard to Covid Passes per se I would expect them to end when the Covid Act expires - and if that doesn't happen well that might be a red line as well.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Dec 10, 2021 13:25:16 GMT
Apparently the NHS App is joined up to the system where you report lateral flows (it generates a temporary Covid Pass) so if the government was actually interested in stopping the virus spreading it could simply insist on lateral flows before events. However that would then ruin the actual goal of Covid Passports: to annoy people enough into getting the vaccine and the booster and any further boosters they deem necessary. Not arguing for or against here - just asking a question - but if you use a negative LFT to generate a 48 hour pass what is to say you haven't frigged the test or used someone else's result if you've done it at home rather than had a supervised one at a chemists?
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 10, 2021 13:27:23 GMT
Does this virus only wreck havoc on 1st World countries, why haven’t India, parts of Asia and Africa not been completely overwhelmed especially given their extraordinarily low vax rates. Why aren’t we seeing more questions as to why this is the case? They have put the vaccine programme in India on hold.
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Post by femark on Dec 10, 2021 13:28:11 GMT
What do you think the government or any other organisation are going to do with the information? The app is linked to your NHS data that is already present. The only extra information they have is that you tested negative for COVID on a certain day. Remember in the 80s how congestion charge camera legislation deemed that information could not be used for all but the most serious crimes, terrorism by example, and data was not allowed to be transferred from TfL to law enforcement? Perhaps you are too young to remember the original legislation. However that ANPR data and photography is now routinely and freely available. The QR code on your Covid pass contains tamper resistance, date time information and identity information that the scanner device can present to any holder of the scanner to be used for secondary identification even when the scanner is offline e.g check the name against a drivers licence. Whether it is currently used by those door staff or not. Once back online the scanner id records the event by date/time, by identity of the person allegedly in order to track and trace spreader events. The scanner holders are simply the location tags. Meanwhile your NHS data is simultaneously and currently being negotiated to be available to private companies as well as other government agencies. Although currently delayed there is only one direction of travel. Cue the "if you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" defence. So they know you went to a certain event on a certain day. What are they then going to do with that information? Follow you around for no reason?
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Post by adri2008 on Dec 10, 2021 13:29:38 GMT
Apparently the NHS App is joined up to the system where you report lateral flows (it generates a temporary Covid Pass) so if the government was actually interested in stopping the virus spreading it could simply insist on lateral flows before events. However that would then ruin the actual goal of Covid Passports: to annoy people enough into getting the vaccine and the booster and any further boosters they deem necessary. Not arguing for or against here - just asking a question - but if you use a negative LFT to generate a 48 hour pass what is to say you haven't frigged the test or used someone else's result if you've done it at home rather than had a supervised one at a chemists? Well you run the risk of that anyway with the unvaccinated - you are reliant on people's good will (in short supply now) to cooperate. It depends whether you feel the vaccinated should be given a green light to do what they like regardless of whether they are carrying the virus or not. I'm vaccinated myself just for clarity so I can simply show the pass and be done with it. It just doesn't make any sense to me unless the vaccine was actually preventing transmission - it may well reduce it but at this point, it's clear its not doing enough on this front.
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Post by OldStokie on Dec 10, 2021 13:34:46 GMT
Is anyone else like me? I can't do a LFT test properly because I have an extremely sensitive clack and I only have to put that swab stick near my face and I begin to retch. When I do one, I just stick it up my nose and hope for the best. It's worked up to yet. They all come out as negative. OS.
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 10, 2021 13:44:30 GMT
I am assuming everyone who believes it is their social responsibility to be vaccinated will also take a LFT test before going to the game? Surely, it would be extremely negligent and somewhat hypocritical not to do so based on the clear evidence that vaccination does not prevent spreading of the virus. the clear evidence is being 3x jabbed you have a much lower risk of contracting and therefore spreading COVID - you conveniently left that part out.
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Post by Clem Fandango on Dec 10, 2021 13:50:13 GMT
Is anyone else like me? I can't do a LFT test properly because I have an extremely sensitive clack and I only have to put that swab stick near my face and I begin to retch. When I do one, I just stick it up my nose and hope for the best. It's worked up to yet. They all come out as negative. OS. Haha tbf I've struggled with them as well and its been horrendous to give them to my daughter god knows how people do it with toddlers etc. Anyway the missus came back with the nose only ones the other day when she went for her booster. They are so much easier to use.
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Post by sticky on Dec 10, 2021 13:59:27 GMT
So they’re saying kids are the main spreaders, but they don’t need a vaccine passport or need to wear masks...all seems a bit odd to me🤔the rules make no sense at all...as others have already said, the vaccinated just show their passport, and their in.. I bet 99% of vaccinated won’t be testing so what’s the point in it all🤷🏼♂️
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Post by southstanddan on Dec 10, 2021 14:41:31 GMT
Even the most ardent SAGE scientists agree that vaccine passports do nothing to reduce infection or spread of disease. They only serve to nudge those without appropriate vaccine status in the direction of immunisation through removal of privilege. In return the government ultimately gets a potential win-win through increased vaccine take up or reduced attendance. Furthermore IF they manage to make it normal and it stays they have a state control tool to track crime and tax evasion. If like me you are a libertarian and hate the idea of the passport or you don't want to be part of a big data mapping exercise but want to enjoy life, the best solution is as follows: 1. Walk in to a pharmacy or work and collect a pack of LFT. Do not order online as the address is required. 2. Set up a web email account specifically to receive your lateral flow test results for free. 3. Take an LFT to attend the event you wish to, thus guaranteeing greater prevention than the vaccine passport holder sat next to you. 4. Print out the email with the negative result and carry the paper copy to your event. Vaccine Passports are a device that does nothing but promote vaccination. I totally agree, but for me promotion of the vaccine is a good thing
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Post by superjw on Dec 10, 2021 14:42:45 GMT
My mum has rang me in a panic - she is triple jabbed and has gone onto her NHS app and her entire vaccine record has disappeared. When she clicks on both the domestic and travel option it just says "no Covid 19 records Found" even though she's had all 3 jabs and has been able to view the pass before.
She's spoken to the NHS app team and her gp and both say they cannot help. 119 said the same too.
So basically my mum is now completely stuck if she either wants to travel or go anywhere with the pass rule.
Beyond a joke.
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Post by southstanddan on Dec 10, 2021 14:43:23 GMT
Helps to stop people catching and spreading COVID. Can you provide evidence based on real data to back up that claim? Especially on spreading and especially with Omicron. Because I am not finding it. The people I know who currently have Covid are vaccinated, so please explain. Their symptoms maybe milder, that is hard to tell exactly. At the end of November according to UK data 35% of hospitalisations were unvaccinated. That is a population where around 30% are unvaccinated. That suggests the vaccinations are having a very modest impact, yes some impact, but not as much as is clearly being made out. That is not my opinion that is an objective fact based on real existing UK data . The data coming out of SA is also stating that vaccinations do not effect transmission. You just provided the evidence yourself in your reply.
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Post by superjw on Dec 10, 2021 14:57:29 GMT
Is anyone else like me? I can't do a LFT test properly because I have an extremely sensitive clack and I only have to put that swab stick near my face and I begin to retch. When I do one, I just stick it up my nose and hope for the best. It's worked up to yet. They all come out as negative. OS. The new lft tests from the NHS are nasal ones - they come with a short swab about the length of your finger. I too had problems using the throat one, got a very sore throat from them but these nasal ones are better
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Post by Northy on Dec 10, 2021 15:50:37 GMT
Misery of existence, come on, seriously what rock have you been hiding under, its been virtually back to normal It’s nowhere near back to normal Masks Self isolating Covid passes Work from home Social distancing Think twice before having a Christmas party Scaring the populating over covid Forcing people to have jab after jab Media still scaremongering Only getting the worse scenarios from science and the media The no change is the amount of money and greed certain elements are making out of this I've been working away lots, hotels, bars, had more holidays these last few months than a couple of years put together, running events, etc etc It's only the knicker wetters who choose to watch the bad news on the news and social media who seem to be bleating about it on here, it's only someone in the office down south this morning told me face masks are back in today I realised, I thought it was Monday.
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