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Post by chiswickpotter on Jan 8, 2022 16:04:31 GMT
Signings no, transfer fee and contract negotiations yes. Managerial appointments...he had a say but all chosen either by Peter or John Coates He was fully complicit with every major decision including the employment of an “experienced Technical Director with global contacts“ (not) Speaking to him about a wage cap in the Championship, he said it might have been helpful as a way to either stop some transfers or to reduce the wages we paid. Certainly felt like he didn't have the final decision. And he has gone to a really big job in the Premier League which suggests he must have something to offer.
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Post by lordb on Jan 8, 2022 16:10:17 GMT
I don’t disagree he’s got a lot to answer for but painting him as the villain for every single thing that’s happened to the club in the last few years is very silly, whatever the marketing bumpf about his role says. He’s not the villain for everything of course not but his role dictates he’s ultimately responsible for key areas of the business and its has a shocking performance for years all of which is part of the territory in sport but to leave declaring all is rosy in the garden is disingenuous at very best Yes that was utter bollocks The manager appointments are Coates and Coates full stop
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jan 8, 2022 16:51:25 GMT
He’s not the villain for everything of course not but his role dictates he’s ultimately responsible for key areas of the business and its has a shocking performance for years all of which is part of the territory in sport but to leave declaring all is rosy in the garden is disingenuous at very best Some of the key areas of business you identify aren’t his domain though, and the ‘all footballing areas of the club’ thing is a throwaway line that doesn’t actually tell the story. You accept that, surely? Of course I accept he’s not entirely responsible but interestingly for 800k a year what would you accept he is responsible for
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jan 8, 2022 17:02:48 GMT
He’s not the villain for everything of course not but his role dictates he’s ultimately responsible for key areas of the business and its has a shocking performance for years all of which is part of the territory in sport but to leave declaring all is rosy in the garden is disingenuous at very best Yes that was utter bollocks The manager appointments are Coates and Coates full stop Dumb and dumber.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jan 8, 2022 17:15:59 GMT
Can anyone tell me what scholes achieved?
Ten years in the prem was down to pulis then Hughes, and decent signings until about 5 years ago.
Other than that, the commercial side looks poor, we didn't take our chance to raise the profile of the club, there's now zero legacy. So what has he achieved?
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Post by questionable on Jan 8, 2022 17:20:44 GMT
Yes that was utter bollocks The manager appointments are Coates and Coates full stop Dumb and dumber. Oh absolutely. Senior had his faults massively and older supporters know exactly what senior was capable of, junior is excelling Coates of old. Never a truer saying in that history always repeats itself.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 8, 2022 18:11:36 GMT
Some of the key areas of business you identify aren’t his domain though, and the ‘all footballing areas of the club’ thing is a throwaway line that doesn’t actually tell the story. You accept that, surely? Of course I accept he’s not entirely responsible but interestingly for 800k a year what would you accept he is responsible for The commercial side of stuff, the day to day running of the non-football side of the club, and as lordb said stuff like contract negotiations. He absolutely did make a pig’s ear of a fair amount of stuff, no question. Equally those who see him as responsible for all the poor recruitment and managerial appointments are in for a rude awakening if they think him going is going to magically improve all that stuff.
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Post by cvillestokie on Jan 8, 2022 18:22:27 GMT
Of course I accept he’s not entirely responsible but interestingly for 800k a year what would you accept he is responsible for The commercial side of stuff, the day to day running of the non-football side of the club, and as lordb said stuff like contract negotiations. He absolutely did make a pig’s ear of a fair amount of stuff, no question. Equally those who see him as responsible for all the poor recruitment and managerial appointments are in for a rude awakening if they think him going is going to magically improve all that stuff. I would say though that the day to day running of the non-football side of things has not exactly been great. If we don’t go up in the next 5-10 years, it will be interesting to see what our crowd size and demographics will be. It feels like we are way behind when it comes to young fan engagement.
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Post by theonlooker on Jan 8, 2022 19:07:57 GMT
It all stems from the owners doesn't it? They employed him, they indulged him, they kept him on for as long as they did and they are not replacing him properly in the short term.
We are where we are because there is little to no direction from them, and that is the key terminology of what they are - directors. When Mark Hughes stated that he had to pretty much set his own goals when he walked into the club, that pretty much spelled everything out for me. How you can get away with that in any business is staggering, but I guess they only really answer to themselves don't they?
I know they'd never see us short, are good people and good employers in the area, will service the debt (that they have created we need to add...) but my god are we desperate for some football nous 'up there' and desperate pretty damn quick.
I wish Denise was really interested because i'm convinced she would have brought in a football man upstairs and made him solely responsible and answerable to the family for all football related results - on and off the pitch.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jan 8, 2022 20:02:03 GMT
It all stems from the owners doesn't it? They employed him, they indulged him, they kept him on for as long as they did and they are not replacing him properly in the short term.
We are where we are because there is little to no direction from them, and that is the key terminology of what they are - directors. When Mark Hughes stated that he had to pretty much set his own goals when he walked into the club, that pretty much spelled everything out for me. How you can get away with that in any business is staggering, but I guess they only really answer to themselves don't they?
I know they'd never see us short, are good people and good employers in the area, will service the debt (that they have created we need to add...) but my god are we desperate for some football nous 'up there' and desperate pretty damn quick.
I wish Denise was really interested because i'm convinced she would have brought in a football man upstairs and made him solely responsible and answerable to the family for all football related results - on and off the pitch.
It really is the only way isn't it. They just don't have any aptitude for running a football club so should hand the responsibility over to someone with a track record, sit back and provide the neccessary funds.
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Post by dirtclod on Jan 8, 2022 20:54:51 GMT
And it wouldn't be a difficult fix!
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jan 8, 2022 21:12:58 GMT
He was fully complicit with every major decision including the employment of an “experienced Technical Director with global contacts“ (not) Speaking to him about a wage cap in the Championship, he said it might have been helpful as a way to either stop some transfers or to reduce the wages we paid. Certainly felt like he didn't have the final decision. And he has gone to a really big job in the Premier League which suggests he must have something to offer. If I understand you correctly (I apologise if I’m incorrect) he as a CEO/Director had his advice ignored on critical costs and direction of the football operations. If this is the case why didn’t he resign as a matter of principle (he wants to retain his reputation within the footballing world)? If not he’s totally complicit in the disastrous running of the club that has led us us to our current predicament..
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 8, 2022 21:15:35 GMT
Speaking to him about a wage cap in the Championship, he said it might have been helpful as a way to either stop some transfers or to reduce the wages we paid. Certainly felt like he didn't have the final decision. And he has gone to a really big job in the Premier League which suggests he must have something to offer. If I understand you correctly (I apologise if I’m incorrect) he as a CEO/Director had his advice ignored on critical costs and direction of the football operations. If this is the case why didn’t he resign as a matter of principle (he wants to retain his reputation within the footballing world)? If not he’s totally complicit in the disastrous running of the club that has led us us to our current predicament.. Because not everyone gets their own way all the time in any job unless they don’t have anyone to answer to?
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jan 9, 2022 16:30:29 GMT
Funny his parting statement doesn’t mention the abject supporter apathy demonstrated in his last fa cup game , incredibly ungrateful given the superb position He is leaving the club and team in after 17 years of unprecedented success when he joined we were grateful just to have a pitch to play on ahd the idea of a crowd for a fa cup hime game was just a pipe dream and it’s only cost £200 million to get here
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Post by jokker on Jan 18, 2022 11:59:53 GMT
There are hundreds of people "contributing" to the pages of the Sentinel online: if you expect I can remember what each of them said several years ago and who they are, there must something seriously wrong with what you expect from others than your own royal madness. In your mind I make up everything. That's in your mind, although some of it has already been verified by others, but you've been asking nonstop since Hughes dispensed with the false nine why he did it, and you've not come up with one plausible explanation yet. Although you're not exactly short on theorising otherwise in this forum. Granted, you are a good writer and sometimes I enjoy reading it. I just think if you’re going to present something as fact you should have some kind of evidence to back it up. The Sentinel wouldn’t report something like that without quotes and it would’ve been discussed as nauseum on here too, which it wasn’t. I'm paraphrasing, of course. I never claimed it was reported by the Sentinel but that it was written in the Sentinel online pages. Too bad you don't know the difference.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 18, 2022 12:02:07 GMT
I just think if you’re going to present something as fact you should have some kind of evidence to back it up. The Sentinel wouldn’t report something like that without quotes and it would’ve been discussed as nauseum on here too, which it wasn’t. I'm paraphrasing, of course. I never claimed it was reported by the Sentinel but that it was written in the Sentinel online pages. Too bad you don't know the difference. What do you mean by 'the online pages'? Do you mean the Herberts commenting beneath the article? If so, why are you acting like that's fact?
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jan 18, 2022 12:25:30 GMT
Speaking to him about a wage cap in the Championship, he said it might have been helpful as a way to either stop some transfers or to reduce the wages we paid. Certainly felt like he didn't have the final decision. And he has gone to a really big job in the Premier League which suggests he must have something to offer. If I understand you correctly (I apologise if I’m incorrect) he as a CEO/Director had his advice ignored on critical costs and direction of the football operations. If this is the case why didn’t he resign as a matter of principle (he wants to retain his reputation within the footballing world)? If not he’s totally complicit in the disastrous running of the club that has led us us to our current predicament.. Not necessarily his advice was ignored but that with another source of pressure, players and their agents (more the latter) would have had to be more realistic. As he described it, for mid-ranking players a club like Stoke was a price taker with agents holding the upper hand and he wanted some balance.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 18, 2022 12:29:22 GMT
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jan 18, 2022 12:32:36 GMT
I’m not sure we did ever implement the ‘self-funded’, sustainable model did we? In the 3 years running up to relegation our net spend was €87m 15/16 €30m 16/17 €35m 17/18 €22m Before that Hughes didn’t spend much at all, in fact his most successful spell was when he spent pretty much nothing in his first couple of seasons. The net spend in 17/18 is pretty misleading. In the Summer prior to that season our net spend was £0 or very close to it. Almost all of the net spend you quote was spent in January when we were already staring down the barrel but similar to the spend that Summer it was spent in completely the wrong area of the pitch. We needed firepower the pathetic attempts to replace Arnie on the cheap were missing in action and we were left unable to score goals continually having to revert to an ineffective Crouch. No one involved in running the club at the time escapes criticism. The manager had clearly lost the plot but for an established Premier League club to be unwilling to produce a transfer budget over and above what they bought in from sales was just asking to get relegated and fate duly obliged. You need to look at wages as well. Zouma, Choupo and Jese added hugely to wage costs. They didn’t show up in transfer spend but were significant outlays. Even before salary, Choupo received at least £5 million to sign on. And they paid £12 million for a striker (Berahino) 6 months before summer 2017. Seasons 5,6 and 7 in the PL era were when we experimented with self-sufficiency but the 3 seasons up to relegation saw huge investment in the squad for a club of Stoke’s size. Those £87 million of losses were owner financed
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2022 12:35:14 GMT
Can anyone tell me what scholes achieved? Ten years in the prem was down to pulis then Hughes, and decent signings until about 5 years ago. Other than that, the commercial side looks poor, we didn't take our chance to raise the profile of the club, there's now zero legacy. So what has he achieved? Fantastic work in the community. The Unders 7s campaign for kids in the city. Refurbished the ground and increased capacity. Clayton Woods training ground. An FA Cup final and 10 years of Premier League football.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jan 18, 2022 13:30:31 GMT
Of course I accept he’s not entirely responsible but interestingly for 800k a year what would you accept he is responsible for The commercial side of stuff, the day to day running of the non-football side of the club, and as lordb said stuff like contract negotiations. He absolutely did make a pig’s ear of a fair amount of stuff, no question. Equally those who see him as responsible for all the poor recruitment and managerial appointments are in for a rude awakening if they think him going is going to magically improve all that stuff. He wasn't all bad of course. As he must recieve credit for his role in some of the success of the last 15 years he must as CEO also put his hands up to his involvement in an absolutely shocking last 5 years. To me his departure is symbolic of putting the past behind us and preparing for a new brighter future. I wish the man no ill, i am just glad he is gone.
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 18, 2022 13:32:24 GMT
Can anyone tell me what scholes achieved? Ten years in the prem was down to pulis then Hughes, and decent signings until about 5 years ago. Other than that, the commercial side looks poor, we didn't take our chance to raise the profile of the club, there's now zero legacy. So what has he achieved? Fantastic work in the community. The Unders 7s campaign for kids in the city. Refurbished the ground and increased capacity. Clayton Woods training ground. An FA Cup final and 10 years of Premier League football. And not let's forget the freezing of ST's as well as free travel to away matches. Add to that the way he's skillfully guided us through the FFP minefield without a points deduction. Has he made mistakes? Yes, but I just don't get this view that Scholes is the devil incarnate. OS.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jan 18, 2022 13:42:32 GMT
Fantastic work in the community. The Unders 7s campaign for kids in the city. Refurbished the ground and increased capacity. Clayton Woods training ground. An FA Cup final and 10 years of Premier League football. And not let's forget the freezing of ST's as well as free travel to away matches. Add to that the way he's skillfully guided us through the FFP minefield without a points deduction. Has he made mistakes? Yes, but I just don't get this view that Scholes is the devil incarnate. OS. I wouldnt be so sure on FFP just yet the account that cause an issue if they do will have been on his watch
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Post by ChesterStokie on Jan 18, 2022 13:49:31 GMT
And not let's forget the freezing of ST's as well as free travel to away matches. Add to that the way he's skillfully guided us through the FFP minefield without a points deduction. Has he made mistakes? Yes, but I just don't get this view that Scholes is the devil incarnate. OS. I wouldnt be so sure on FFP just yet the account that cause an issue if they do will have been on his watch I don’t actually think negotiating your way through FFP is that difficult. Unless your being put under pressure by your owners to sail close to the wind it’s pretty basic stuff for a qualified accountant.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jan 18, 2022 13:55:37 GMT
The net spend in 17/18 is pretty misleading. In the Summer prior to that season our net spend was £0 or very close to it. Almost all of the net spend you quote was spent in January when we were already staring down the barrel but similar to the spend that Summer it was spent in completely the wrong area of the pitch. We needed firepower the pathetic attempts to replace Arnie on the cheap were missing in action and we were left unable to score goals continually having to revert to an ineffective Crouch. No one involved in running the club at the time escapes criticism. The manager had clearly lost the plot but for an established Premier League club to be unwilling to produce a transfer budget over and above what they bought in from sales was just asking to get relegated and fate duly obliged. You need to look at wages as well. Zouma, Choupo and Jese added hugely to wage costs. They didn’t show up in transfer spend but were significant outlays. Even before salary, Choupo received at least £5 million to sign on. And they paid £12 million for a striker (Berahino) 6 months before summer 2017. Seasons 5,6 and 7 in the PL era were when we experimented with self-sufficiency but the 3 seasons up to relegation saw huge investment in the squad for a club of Stoke’s size. Those £87 million of losses were owner financed Choupo was trying to replace Arnie on the cheap, nothing to see there. Zouma and Jese Obviously were on big wages but I disagree that any of the transfers we bought in represented enourmous investment in the squad for an established Premier League club. £12M the previous Summer and £18M the previous January weren't either it's the sort of money you need to make available for net spend to stay in that league. The net spend first season down clearly shows a realisation that under investment had lead to us being in the championship. The £87M losses are the cost of relegation. I've already posted spend less than half of the £70/80M that was spent in Jan of the relegation season and the Summer after relegation in the preceding Summer and you don't get relegated, don't post £87M loss, don't see the value of the club plummet by est £150M
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jan 18, 2022 15:51:27 GMT
I wouldnt be so sure on FFP just yet the account that cause an issue if they do will have been on his watch I don’t actually think negotiating your way through FFP is that difficult. Unless your being put under pressure by your owners to sail close to the wind it’s pretty basic stuff for a qualified accountant. Time will tell whether he managed it or not
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Post by kustokie on Jan 22, 2022 18:25:52 GMT
With all the comings and goings this January it really does make you wonder what he did.
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Post by 4doorsaloon on Jan 22, 2022 18:51:22 GMT
Oversee 10 years of premier league football, European football, and the best teams we have had for decades… other than that he was shit. I really enjoy the championship.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jan 22, 2022 18:53:02 GMT
Oversee 10 years of premier league football, European football, and the best teams we have had for decades… other than that he was shit. I really enjoy the championship. Ay up Tony, enjoying ya break?
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Post by 4doorsaloon on Jan 22, 2022 19:07:06 GMT
Oversee 10 years of premier league football, European football, and the best teams we have had for decades… other than that he was shit. I really enjoy the championship. Ay up Tony, enjoying ya break? Just a basic response to a post.
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