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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 22, 2021 9:07:26 GMT
And I think that’s an archaic and daft way of looking at it. They’ll be developing irrespective due to their age. He wasn’t rightly dropped at all. It was a terrible decision that means we now have two goalies who are scared shitless of making a mistake. Bursik should be the number from now until the end of the season. You pick your best team.If you want to provide your youngsters with 1st team experience to aid their development you send them out on loan, play them in games where you consider the result to be relatively unimportant (cups) or give them 15mins at the end of games (especially if we are winning/losing by such a margin that the result will not be affected). The latter is obviously not really practical for a GK. I get your point about Bursik. If he and Davies were performing to an equal standard and you had to choose one then you choose Bursik purely because of the potential sell on value. It is better for us to have him playing in the first team than sitting on the bench. The fact that playing Bursik means he gains experience which is more beneficial than Davies due to his age is a secondary benefit. It should not be a primary consideration when you are trying to win the game. Bursik's performance at Derby alone was enough for me to think he should be taken out of the firing line for a while. Davies has come in and done OK. Not great but OK. If MON now thinks it is time for Bursik to be recalled then I am ok with that but I will still be a little more uneasy with Bursik in goal than Davies (it's that Derby performance again). The fact is they both have mistakes in them. It is for MON to decide which one of them is less likely to fuck up on balance.Hardly a glowing endorsement I know, but that is how I see it. That decision is based on a simple subjective assessment by MON backed up with some objective stats from his analysts. It should not be based on age or experience or 'development' time. P.s All GK's live with the fear of messing up. They know their mistakes are more obvious than an outfield player. If there are 2 GK's of fairly equal ability (not potential) then they can expect to be dropped if their performances are not consistently high. If they can't handle that pressure then maybe they need some coaching. I think MON has handled the GK situation well thus far. I said on an earlier thread that I expect the GK situation to change through the season because it seems that both of them are capable of mistakes on a regular basis. Of the two, I would prefer Bursik to establish himself as our regular GK but I don't think he is at that level yet. As for England. From what I have seen he is not good enough. He may develop over the next 2-3 years to turn out fantastic. I hope so. And Bursik is part of the best XI. I disagree with your overall premise though. If you have a rising talent that is on a par already and will go further you play them. If they're just below and with the extra game time you think they will get better, you play them. We have to be a club that develops young players both for the benefit of the team and for profitability. Not playing Collins as much cost us millions. We can't make the same mistake. Bursik is better than Davies as is and Davies has made more mistakes in these last 4 games than Bursik has all season.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 22, 2021 9:20:24 GMT
You pick your best team.If you want to provide your youngsters with 1st team experience to aid their development you send them out on loan, play them in games where you consider the result to be relatively unimportant (cups) or give them 15mins at the end of games (especially if we are winning/losing by such a margin that the result will not be affected). The latter is obviously not really practical for a GK. I get your point about Bursik. If he and Davies were performing to an equal standard and you had to choose one then you choose Bursik purely because of the potential sell on value. It is better for us to have him playing in the first team than sitting on the bench. The fact that playing Bursik means he gains experience which is more beneficial than Davies due to his age is a secondary benefit. It should not be a primary consideration when you are trying to win the game. Bursik's performance at Derby alone was enough for me to think he should be taken out of the firing line for a while. Davies has come in and done OK. Not great but OK. If MON now thinks it is time for Bursik to be recalled then I am ok with that but I will still be a little more uneasy with Bursik in goal than Davies (it's that Derby performance again). The fact is they both have mistakes in them. It is for MON to decide which one of them is less likely to fuck up on balance.Hardly a glowing endorsement I know, but that is how I see it. That decision is based on a simple subjective assessment by MON backed up with some objective stats from his analysts. It should not be based on age or experience or 'development' time. P.s All GK's live with the fear of messing up. They know their mistakes are more obvious than an outfield player. If there are 2 GK's of fairly equal ability (not potential) then they can expect to be dropped if their performances are not consistently high. If they can't handle that pressure then maybe they need some coaching. I think MON has handled the GK situation well thus far. I said on an earlier thread that I expect the GK situation to change through the season because it seems that both of them are capable of mistakes on a regular basis. Of the two, I would prefer Bursik to establish himself as our regular GK but I don't think he is at that level yet. As for England. From what I have seen he is not good enough. He may develop over the next 2-3 years to turn out fantastic. I hope so. And Bursik is part of the best XI. I disagree with your overall premise though. If you have a rising talent that is on a par already and will go further you play them. If they're just below and with the extra game time you think they will get better, you play them. We have to be a club that develops young players both for the benefit of the team and for profitability. Not playing Collins as much cost us millions. We can't make the same mistake. Bursik is better than Davies as is and Davies has made more mistakes in these last 4 games than Bursik has all season. Either way eventually you have to settle on one keeper. Chopping and changing constantly upsets the defence. All the best teams have a constant keeper that the defenders get used to.
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Post by tqstokie on Oct 22, 2021 9:57:44 GMT
Bursik Wilmot Souttar Batth Ostigard Thompson Smith Tymon/Doughty Vrancic/Sawyers Brown Suuridge/Fletcher/Campbell/Sima
Try Ostigard in midfield and tell them all to play as simply and as quickly as possible. Stop this two centre backs in the penalty area at a goal kick nonsense and play the game as much as possible in the opponents half.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 22, 2021 10:10:02 GMT
And Bursik is part of the best XI. I disagree with your overall premise though. If you have a rising talent that is on a par already and will go further you play them. If they're just below and with the extra game time you think they will get better, you play them. We have to be a club that develops young players both for the benefit of the team and for profitability. Not playing Collins as much cost us millions. We can't make the same mistake. Bursik is better than Davies as is and Davies has made more mistakes in these last 4 games than Bursik has all season. Either way eventually you have to settle on one keeper. Chopping and changing constantly upsets the defence. All the best teams have a constant keeper that the defenders get used to. You do, I think it should be Bursik and I thought dropping him was right fucked up.
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 22, 2021 10:41:59 GMT
Has to be Bursik for me, if it is he must be told to quicken up his distribution..he is way more commanding than Davies. Should not have been dropped.
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Post by stokie223 on Oct 22, 2021 10:58:14 GMT
You pick your best team.If you want to provide your youngsters with 1st team experience to aid their development you send them out on loan, play them in games where you consider the result to be relatively unimportant (cups) or give them 15mins at the end of games (especially if we are winning/losing by such a margin that the result will not be affected). The latter is obviously not really practical for a GK. I get your point about Bursik. If he and Davies were performing to an equal standard and you had to choose one then you choose Bursik purely because of the potential sell on value. It is better for us to have him playing in the first team than sitting on the bench. The fact that playing Bursik means he gains experience which is more beneficial than Davies due to his age is a secondary benefit. It should not be a primary consideration when you are trying to win the game. Bursik's performance at Derby alone was enough for me to think he should be taken out of the firing line for a while. Davies has come in and done OK. Not great but OK. If MON now thinks it is time for Bursik to be recalled then I am ok with that but I will still be a little more uneasy with Bursik in goal than Davies (it's that Derby performance again). The fact is they both have mistakes in them. It is for MON to decide which one of them is less likely to fuck up on balance.Hardly a glowing endorsement I know, but that is how I see it. That decision is based on a simple subjective assessment by MON backed up with some objective stats from his analysts. It should not be based on age or experience or 'development' time. P.s All GK's live with the fear of messing up. They know their mistakes are more obvious than an outfield player. If there are 2 GK's of fairly equal ability (not potential) then they can expect to be dropped if their performances are not consistently high. If they can't handle that pressure then maybe they need some coaching. I think MON has handled the GK situation well thus far. I said on an earlier thread that I expect the GK situation to change through the season because it seems that both of them are capable of mistakes on a regular basis. Of the two, I would prefer Bursik to establish himself as our regular GK but I don't think he is at that level yet. As for England. From what I have seen he is not good enough. He may develop over the next 2-3 years to turn out fantastic. I hope so. And Bursik is part of the best XI. I disagree with your overall premise though. If you have a rising talent that is on a par already and will go further you play them. If they're just below and with the extra game time you think they will get better, you play them. We have to be a club that develops young players both for the benefit of the team and for profitability. Not playing Collins as much cost us millions. We can't make the same mistake. Bursik is better than Davies as is and Davies has made more mistakes in these last 4 games than Bursik has all season. Bang on. Personally, for me, Bursik is a better keeper already. There is a somewhat divided opinion on this - which would suggest that perhaps it's close between the two, and if that's true then you HAVE to play Bursik - he's 21, part of the England set up and could either go on to be a huge player for us, or we could sell him for £20m+ ... it's a win/win.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 22, 2021 11:00:00 GMT
Has to be Bursik for me, if it is he must be told to quicken up his distribution..he is way more commanding than Davies. Should not have been dropped. Hopefully it is a process MON is going through to get the best out of Bursik before he installs him on a permanent basis. But he needs to resolve the situation quick because we need a stable keeper either way.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 22, 2021 11:01:44 GMT
And Bursik is part of the best XI. I disagree with your overall premise though. If you have a rising talent that is on a par already and will go further you play them. If they're just below and with the extra game time you think they will get better, you play them. We have to be a club that develops young players both for the benefit of the team and for profitability. Not playing Collins as much cost us millions. We can't make the same mistake. Bursik is better than Davies as is and Davies has made more mistakes in these last 4 games than Bursik has all season. Bang on. Personally, for me, Bursik is a better keeper already. There is a somewhat divided opinion on this - which would suggest that perhaps it's close between the two, and if that's true then you HAVE to play Bursik - he's 21, part of the England set up and could either go on to be a huge player for us, or we could sell him for £20m+ ... it's a win/win. Its definitely close but as you say that means there is only one option. Davies will leave on a free at the end of this contract and be forgotten about. Bursik is the now and is the future whether as a player or turned into bag loads of cash.
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Post by tuum on Oct 22, 2021 11:17:52 GMT
It's not really up to MON to provide a stable keeper. I am sure he would love to. It is really up to the incumbent keeper to perform to a consistently high standard. Thus far, neither of them have done that. MON was right to drop Bursik and I have no objection if he drops Davies. It will then be up to Bursik to show consistency over the 6-8 games or he might be dropped again.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 22, 2021 11:30:42 GMT
It's not really up to MON to provide a stable keeper. I am sure he would love to. It is really up to the incumbent keeper to perform to a consistently high standard. Thus far, neither of them have done that. MON was right to drop Bursik and I have no objection if he drops Davies. It will then be up to Bursik to show consistency over the 6-8 games or he might be dropped again. Does dropping a keeper every time he makes a couple of mistakes help either of them though? I can't think of many examples when that's ever worked out well for anyone involved?
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Post by tuum on Oct 22, 2021 11:43:02 GMT
It's not really up to MON to provide a stable keeper. I am sure he would love to. It is really up to the incumbent keeper to perform to a consistently high standard. Thus far, neither of them have done that. MON was right to drop Bursik and I have no objection if he drops Davies. It will then be up to Bursik to show consistency over the 6-8 games or he might be dropped again. Does dropping a keeper every time he makes a couple of mistakes help either of them though? I can't think of many examples when that's ever worked out well for anyone involved? Depends. How long do you think he should give them? I think 6-8 games is long enough, others may say 10-12 but the next question is how do you assess how well they have performed? You can use stats from the analysts but that won't tell you the full story. E.g the 2 mix ups btwn Bursik and the defence v Derby. I assume that will not show on any stat but if the defence has lost trust in Bursik as a result then it makes sense to make a change. I am not picking on Bursik I am sure someone can make similar arguments against Davies. It would be great if one of them was performing way above the other. That would make MON's life somewhat easier. At the moment that is not the case.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 22, 2021 11:50:15 GMT
Does dropping a keeper every time he makes a couple of mistakes help either of them though? I can't think of many examples when that's ever worked out well for anyone involved? Depends. How long do you think he should give them? I think 6-8 games is long enough, others may say 10-12 but the next question is how do you assess how well they have performed? You can use stats from the analysts but that won't tell you the full story. E.g the 2 mix ups btwn Bursik and the defence v Derby. I assume that will not show on any stat but if the defence has lost trust in Bursik as a result then it makes sense to make a change. I am not picking on Bursik I am sure someone can make similar arguments against Davies. It would be great if one of them was performing way above the other. That would make MON's life somewhat easier. At the moment that is not the case. If they're dropping clangers every week obviously something has to change, but keepers thrive on support and confidence, and uncertainty historically has been a problem at various clubs. Competition is great and you want your number 2 keeper to be capable and pose a threat but not for there to be a question mark over who the number 1 is. It's a tricky balancing act.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 22, 2021 11:51:35 GMT
It's not really up to MON to provide a stable keeper. I am sure he would love to. It is really up to the incumbent keeper to perform to a consistently high standard. Thus far, neither of them have done that. MON was right to drop Bursik and I have no objection if he drops Davies. It will then be up to Bursik to show consistency over the 6-8 games or he might be dropped again. I really don't think it was. He made a mistake against Derby that led to a goal. That was about the only big thing. He wasn't great, he wasn't playing badly. It was really harsh to drop him and a complete confidence killer.
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Post by scfcwebby on Oct 22, 2021 12:08:13 GMT
Bursik Smith Ostigard Souttar Wilmot Tymon Thompson Sawyers Vrancic Fletcher Brown Bang on for me, this
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 22, 2021 12:15:49 GMT
Like Allen won't be starting 🤣🤣.
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Post by daz2631 on Oct 22, 2021 12:46:43 GMT
Sorry don't understand this sawyers in for Allen most people want he's done nothing yet.
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Post by tuum on Oct 22, 2021 12:48:32 GMT
Has to be Bursik for me, if it is he must be told to quicken up his distribution..he is way more commanding than Davies. Should not have been dropped. Last season Davies was way more commanding than Bursik and didn't deserve to be dropped at the start of the season. He was though, presumably because MON was adopting Bayerns mindset and giving the opportunity to our cash cow keeper because there was very little to choose btwn the two. I was ok with that. I thought it was a bit harsh on Davies but could understand the decision, especially if MON felt that Bursik was already the better keeper. Subsequently,Bursik looked a bit shaky and, rightly IMO, MON made the change.Since then Davies has done OK but not enough to instill confidence culminating in the fuck up on Tues. I don't have the belief in Bursik that others have. Do I think he can be our no. 1? Definitely. I would love him to have a great season and some big club come in and we sell him for £20MM.We can then go and buy a better goalie for £3MM.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 22, 2021 12:53:49 GMT
Has to be Bursik for me, if it is he must be told to quicken up his distribution..he is way more commanding than Davies. Should not have been dropped. Last season Davies was way more commanding than Bursik and didn't deserve to be dropped at the start of the season. He was though, presumably because MON was adopting Bayerns mindset and giving the opportunity to our cash cow keeper because there was very little to choose btwn the two. I was ok with that. I thought it was a bit harsh on Davies but could understand the decision, especially if MON felt that Bursik was already the better keeper. Subsequently,Bursik looked a bit shaky and, rightly IMO, MON made the change.Since then Davies has done OK but not enough to instill confidence culminating in the fuck up on Tues. I don't have the belief in Bursik that others have. Do I think he can be our no. 1? Definitely. I would love him to have a great season and some big club come in and we sell him for £20MM.We can then go and buy a better goalie for £3MM. Davies wasn't dropped was he, he got injured I thought?
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Post by Gods on Oct 22, 2021 12:58:44 GMT
A fiendishly difficult fixture which we could really do without losing, with Brentford in mid week we don't want to go in to the Cardiff match on the back of 4 straight reversals, the natives really would start to get restless.
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Post by tuum on Oct 22, 2021 13:10:51 GMT
Last season Davies was way more commanding than Bursik and didn't deserve to be dropped at the start of the season. He was though, presumably because MON was adopting Bayerns mindset and giving the opportunity to our cash cow keeper because there was very little to choose btwn the two. I was ok with that. I thought it was a bit harsh on Davies but could understand the decision, especially if MON felt that Bursik was already the better keeper. Subsequently,Bursik looked a bit shaky and, rightly IMO, MON made the change.Since then Davies has done OK but not enough to instill confidence culminating in the fuck up on Tues. I don't have the belief in Bursik that others have. Do I think he can be our no. 1? Definitely. I would love him to have a great season and some big club come in and we sell him for £20MM.We can then go and buy a better goalie for £3MM. Davies wasn't dropped was he, he got injured I thought? You may be right. I only know that Bursik started this season. If Davies was injured then that makes it even more difficult to gauge MON's thinking.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 22, 2021 13:12:14 GMT
Davies wasn't dropped was he, he got injured I thought? You may be right. I only know that Bursik started this season. If Davies was injured then that makes it even more difficult to gauge MON's thinking. Sorry, thought you meant last season, ignore me.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Oct 22, 2021 13:16:37 GMT
Bursik Smith Ostigard Souttar Wilmot Tymon Thompson Sawyers Vrancic Fletcher Brown Bang on for me, this Surridge for Brown. Campbell and Brown later on if need be.
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Post by loosestools on Oct 22, 2021 18:34:02 GMT
Surridge for Brown. Campbell and Brown later on if need be. No Brown to start and run the legs off the defenders, Surridge and Cambell as subs
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Post by independent on Oct 22, 2021 18:55:26 GMT
Depends. How long do you think he should give them? I think 6-8 games is long enough, others may say 10-12 but the next question is how do you assess how well they have performed? You can use stats from the analysts but that won't tell you the full story. E.g the 2 mix ups btwn Bursik and the defence v Derby. I assume that will not show on any stat but if the defence has lost trust in Bursik as a result then it makes sense to make a change. I am not picking on Bursik I am sure someone can make similar arguments against Davies. It would be great if one of them was performing way above the other. That would make MON's life somewhat easier. At the moment that is not the case. If they're dropping clangers every week obviously something has to change, but keepers thrive on support and confidence, and uncertainty historically has been a problem at various clubs. Competition is great and you want your number 2 keeper to be capable and pose a threat but not for there to be a question mark over who the number 1 is. It's a tricky balancing act. You can't continue to play a keeper who is not playing well since he got back in. Davies handling of the ball outside his box was totally unnecessary and he escaped it without a bollocking here. As well as his clanger for the goal he wasn't even capable of catching the rebound off our crossbar which almost hit him on the head. I don't think that we have a genuine No. 1 Keeper but I think Bursik is probably the better option.
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Post by armitage on Oct 22, 2021 19:14:03 GMT
We started the season with two decent goalies. Over the past three months both seem to have gone backwards. Worrying.
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Post by stokeyank on Oct 22, 2021 19:38:03 GMT
Would like to see Doughty get a long run out. In his brief cameos so far he's looked dangerous. Don't think you can drop Tymon or Smith for him though so not sure where he fits for an extended run.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 22, 2021 21:59:39 GMT
Rowett will be his usual negative self; the game has 0-0 written all over it
Someone remind me when we last won in London please.
Time to change GK.
Usual back 3 and WBs
Allen will play
Time to give Brown a rest and play Fletcher, bringing on Surridge for the last 30 mins.
Question is who replaces Powell? Campbell is far from ready, he was blowing after every sprint on Tuesday, and miles away from match fit. His lack of stamina is a danger to spoiling his career. Campbell will be used as an impact sub for some time till he is really fit and "hardened up".
Never thought we would be short of #10s. It seemed like half the squad were #10s when Hughes was here!
Maybe MON will surprise us by doing something completely different, and playing 4 at the back and playing a genuine winger.
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hotpot
Youth Player
Posts: 432
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Post by hotpot on Oct 23, 2021 0:23:14 GMT
2-4-4 or 2-5-3 - From: Fletcher, Sturridge, Tyrese, Brown, Thompson, Vranic, Smith, Souttar, Baath, Tymon; Davies. Subs: Doughty, Sima, Allen, Ostigard, Fox, Davies.
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Post by tuum on Oct 23, 2021 3:46:20 GMT
Would like to see Doughty get a long run out. In his brief cameos so far he's looked dangerous. Don't think you can drop Tymon or Smith for him though so not sure where he fits for an extended run. Maybe stick him in goal?
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Post by EccyStokie on Oct 23, 2021 7:14:38 GMT
2-4-4 or 2-5-3 - From: Fletcher, Sturridge, Tyrese, Brown, Thompson, Vranic, Smith, Souttar, Baath, Tymon; Davies. Subs: Doughty, Sima, Allen, Ostigard, Fox, Davies. Don’t think iv ever seen anyone list a formation and lineup from front to back. I like it
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