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2021 TDF
Jul 15, 2021 20:09:48 GMT
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Post by salopstick on Jul 15, 2021 20:09:48 GMT
Do we reckon it's going to be Cav's 35th tomorrow ? Yep and 36 on Sunday. He’s done great over the hills. The other sprinters have really slogged the hills
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Post by Bod on Jul 15, 2021 21:28:44 GMT
Do we reckon it's going to be Cav's 35th tomorrow ? Yep and 36 on Sunday. He’s done great over the hills. The other sprinters have really slogged the hills It’s been a tactical masterpiece. They have epitomised how to protect a designated rider to perfection. The lead outs on the sprints and keeping him safe on the flat, fast stages is impressive, but they I think that the manner in which they have shepherded him through the mountains has been even better. No panic, absolute faith and taking it at their own pace whilst Colbrelli and Matthews have buried themselves to try to pick up scraps here and there. Difficult to see either of those two having great legs tomorrow. On the quiet, Cattaneo has put in a really solid ride for DQS too. Virtually unsupported in the hills and mountains and he’s hovered just outside the top 10.
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Post by stokeuk474 on Jul 16, 2021 9:05:14 GMT
Yep and 36 on Sunday. He’s done great over the hills. The other sprinters have really slogged the hills It’s been a tactical masterpiece. They have epitomised how to protect a designated rider to perfection. The lead outs on the sprints and keeping him safe on the flat, fast stages is impressive, but they I think that the manner in which they have shepherded him through the mountains has been even better. No panic, absolute faith and taking it at their own pace whilst Colbrelli and Matthews have buried themselves to try to pick up scraps here and there. Difficult to see either of those two having great legs tomorrow. On the quiet, Cattaneo has put in a really solid ride for DQS too. Virtually unsupported in the hills and mountains and he’s hovered just outside the top 10. I think DQS have arguably been the best team in the race. They are always so competitive on all fronts, they love to race. Cav in the sprints Cattaneo in the mountains Alaphilippe in the break almost every day Ballerini has been good too, I hadn't seen too much of him but he looks like a good one for the future
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Jul 16, 2021 10:42:54 GMT
I don't find Pogacar's back to back victories make me more suspicious. On stage 17 he tried 3 or 4 times to drop Vingegaard & Carapaz but couldn't until the finish, the same on stage 18. We know from last year that he has a good kick, as he won one or two stages like that in last year's tour and was competing with Roglic in sprints on a few other stages if memory serves. A few years ago people were citing the small gaps between the best riders as evidence against widespread doping - Thomas' overall win was dependent on him sitting in and then attacking/sprinting within the last 2km/200m, respectively, and Roglic basically won the 2020 Vuelta on bonuses from doing the same against Carapaz.
Taking the 3 mins on stage 8 was much more alarming, but as said previously I don't really like performance based accusations and would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Think with Pog his face just makes it look like he's totally comfortable. Would like to see if he's similar when getting dropped to be honest but I can't remember having seen it happening! Quintana for instance looks the same whether he's riding away from the group or being dropped by his own team mates trying to set him up.
If doping is happening these days I reckon it's mostly out of competition and microdosing based. It was widely reported that out of competition testing was almost non-existant during lockdown, perhaps the riders got a little bolder because of that. The budget of WADA is less than Ineos', so they've really naff all chance of regularly testing out of competition simply due to expense.
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2021 TDF
Jul 16, 2021 18:49:17 GMT
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Post by Bod on Jul 16, 2021 18:49:17 GMT
I don't find Pogacar's back to back victories make me more suspicious. On stage 17 he tried 3 or 4 times to drop Vingegaard & Carapaz but couldn't until the finish, the same on stage 18. We know from last year that he has a good kick, as he won one or two stages like that in last year's tour and was competing with Roglic in sprints on a few other stages if memory serves. A few years ago people were citing the small gaps between the best riders as evidence against widespread doping - Thomas' overall win was dependent on him sitting in and then attacking/sprinting within the last 2km/200m, respectively, and Roglic basically won the 2020 Vuelta on bonuses from doing the same against Carapaz. Taking the 3 mins on stage 8 was much more alarming, but as said previously I don't really like performance based accusations and would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Think with Pog his face just makes it look like he's totally comfortable. Would like to see if he's similar when getting dropped to be honest but I can't remember having seen it happening! Quintana for instance looks the same whether he's riding away from the group or being dropped by his own team mates trying to set him up. If doping is happening these days I reckon it's mostly out of competition and microdosing based. It was widely reported that out of competition testing was almost non-existant during lockdown, perhaps the riders got a little bolder because of that. The budget of WADA is less than Ineos', so they've really naff all chance of regularly testing out of competition simply due to expense. Mirrors my take on it exactly. Great post. Look at the amount of distance records in athletics that have been broken during lockdown too. That’s not to do with peaking for the Olympics, it’s for the precise reasons you have mentioned re testing and doping protocols.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 22:48:37 GMT
I don't find Pogacar's back to back victories make me more suspicious. On stage 17 he tried 3 or 4 times to drop Vingegaard & Carapaz but couldn't until the finish, the same on stage 18. We know from last year that he has a good kick, as he won one or two stages like that in last year's tour and was competing with Roglic in sprints on a few other stages if memory serves. A few years ago people were citing the small gaps between the best riders as evidence against widespread doping - Thomas' overall win was dependent on him sitting in and then attacking/sprinting within the last 2km/200m, respectively, and Roglic basically won the 2020 Vuelta on bonuses from doing the same against Carapaz. Taking the 3 mins on stage 8 was much more alarming, but as said previously I don't really like performance based accusations and would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Think with Pog his face just makes it look like he's totally comfortable. Would like to see if he's similar when getting dropped to be honest but I can't remember having seen it happening! Quintana for instance looks the same whether he's riding away from the group or being dropped by his own team mates trying to set him up. If doping is happening these days I reckon it's mostly out of competition and microdosing based. It was widely reported that out of competition testing was almost non-existant during lockdown, perhaps the riders got a little bolder because of that. The budget of WADA is less than Ineos', so they've really naff all chance of regularly testing out of competition simply due to expense. Good post and a well made argument. However after many years of following Le Tour, over 50 years, I am sceptical when a relatively new rider starts to produce these kind of performances. I have being let down too many times. He could be the 21st century Édouard Louis Joseph, Baron Merckx, who knows? Giuseppe Saronni
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Post by tuum on Jul 17, 2021 5:13:13 GMT
Another conspiracy theory just out. 2-3 cyclists have reported hearing strange noises coming from the back wheels of some teams bikes inluding Pogacar and Team UAE. Like a badly adjusted chain aparently.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 5:49:15 GMT
I've been thinking for a while that as Pogacar will presumably have been the most tested rider during this Tour, if any form of doping is taking place it must be on the bike. I just can't see past that stage where he stayed seated, on the big ring, on one of the steepest inclines, and just powered away from the other riders, seemingly effortlessly. There was no discernible increase in effort, no visible sign of him pressing harder on the pedals, no increase in cadence, but he just rode past them with such ease. IMO there have been a couple of similar instances where he's done the same on other stages, and it just doesn't look or feel right. It may be that Pogacar is genuinely head and shoulders ahead of the riders in this TDF (I really hope he is), certainly once Roglic and G were out of contention, but his performances do look to have been "assisted" in some way for him to be that good.
Genuine question as I don't know the answer, but are the bikes scrutineered before the start and finish of the Tour, and/or after each stage ? It just seems that the only doping testing is on the riders.
I always remember the Cancellara video on one of the Classics where he did exactly the same, it was just so obvious that even the commentators were casting serious doubts on the performance. There was no increase in effort, no increase in cadence etc, but he just suddenly roared away from the other riders.
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2021 TDF
Jul 17, 2021 8:20:57 GMT
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Post by tuum on Jul 17, 2021 8:20:57 GMT
UCI checks bikes before and after every stage. Winners bike and GC leaders bike are always checked. After 15 stages UCI had done 720 tests and reported no failures. I dont know how comprehensive those checks are but the bike is not a particularly technical piece of kit and you would think they know what to look for.
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2021 TDF
Jul 17, 2021 8:29:23 GMT
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Post by Bod on Jul 17, 2021 8:29:23 GMT
UCI checks bikes before and after every stage. Winners bike and GC leaders bike are always checked. After 15 stages UCI had done 720 tests and reported no failures. I dont know how comprehensive those checks are but the bike is not a particularly technical piece of kit and you would think they know what to look for. X-rays are used and some type of scanners too, but the percentage which are X-rayed as opposed to the overall number of tests is 15% or so I think.
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Post by Bod on Jul 17, 2021 12:31:33 GMT
What’s the thinking for today? Barring mechanicals, etc, logic says that Vingegaard puts decent time into Carapaz to secure second, Kelderman leapfrogs O’Connor and Lutsenko potentially switches places with Mas, giving Pogacar Vingegaard Carapaz Kelderman O’Connor Lutsenko
In a few years time with retrospective testing and advancement in technology , Vingegaard is declared the winner 😉
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 13:35:11 GMT
Whatever happens today I personally think it's been one of the most boring Tours that I can remember for many years, and certainly since the current era from when Contador, Schleck, even Cadel Evans, and Sky/Ineos won. Nibali's win was boring as most Gc Contenders had either crashed or didn't participate. Pogacar has had such a cushion for what seems forever that any real interest has been sucked out of the race IMO. Granted Cav has been by far the biggest highlight, and he does hopegully give us something to look forward to tomorrow, but overall it's been BORING ! I absolutely love watching cycling and I've watched almost every stage on every Tour (and other Grand Tours, one day races, Classics, Criterium du Dauphine etc) for many, many years, but I've not watched any stages during this last week.
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2021 TDF
Jul 17, 2021 14:40:46 GMT
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Post by Bod on Jul 17, 2021 14:40:46 GMT
If would have been a phenomenal race if it had finished on stage 8 after Pogacar took the jersey. You would have all the carnage of the first week, plus a brilliant win for Alaphilippe, the resurgence of Cav, a stage win for MVDP that was just gold and then he time trialled like a man possessed and a couple of fine solo victories for Mohoric and Teuns. After that, leaving Cav out of the equation and perhaps WVA on Ventoux, it’s been a dud for me.
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2021 TDF
Jul 17, 2021 15:09:35 GMT
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Bod likes this
Post by chuffedstokie on Jul 17, 2021 15:09:35 GMT
Watching it for the scenery today, know the area pretty well.
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 8:54:25 GMT
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Post by salopstick on Jul 18, 2021 8:54:25 GMT
It’s only because it’s in transition. The old guard can’t compete and there are few young GC riders on a par with Pog “now” however. There is a bough talent coming through to liven up future editions. Bernal v pog next year will be fun
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 10:44:01 GMT
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 11:57:09 GMT
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Post by Clem Fandango on Jul 18, 2021 11:57:09 GMT
It’s only because it’s in transition. The old guard can’t compete and there are few young GC riders on a par with Pog “now” however. There is a bough talent coming through to liven up future editions. Bernal v pog next year will be fun Does make you wonder where the next British men’s hope is coming from? Can’t see TGH winning against Pog maybe against some of the lower tier GC rivals in another Giro or Vuelta. Can’t see Pidcock being a grand tour rider either he seems more suited to the one days or week long events. Who else is there? Carthy (maybe a podium)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 12:15:47 GMT
It’s only because it’s in transition. The old guard can’t compete and there are few young GC riders on a par with Pog “now” however. There is a bough talent coming through to liven up future editions. Bernal v pog next year will be fun Does make you wonder where the next British men’s hope is coming from? Can’t see TGH winning against Pog maybe against some of the lower tier GC rivals in another Giro or Vuelta. Can’t see Pidcock being a grand tour rider either he seems more suited to the one days or week long events. Who else is there? Carthy (maybe a podium) I had hoped that Adam or Simon Yates were going to be serious TDF contenders but I think their (lack of) time trialling ability effectively rules them out. I can't see any of the current crop of young British talent beating Pogacar or the other top riders in the "new generation" coming through. I think the best we can hope for a "British win" is Bernal riding for Ineos. Similarly once Cav calls it a day where is the next top British sprinter. After all the years of success I'm surprised at just how anonymous and lacklustre Ineos have been at this TDF (not even a stage win), particularly as it's always been their prime target each year. Some serious recruitment needs to be done if they are to regain the top step of the podium, they can't just rely on Bernal. Just a thought, have we witnessed the "golden era" of Sky/Ineos/British riders winning and the cycle (pardon the pun) is now back to the "norm" of European riders dominating again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 12:18:21 GMT
Does make you wonder where the next British men’s hope is coming from? Can’t see TGH winning against Pog maybe against some of the lower tier GC rivals in another Giro or Vuelta. Can’t see Pidcock being a grand tour rider either he seems more suited to the one days or week long events. Who else is there? Carthy (maybe a podium) I had hoped that Adam or Simon Yates were going to be serious TDF contenders but I think their (lack of) time trialling ability effectively rules them out. I can't see any of the current crop of young British talent beating Pogacar or the other top riders in the "new generation" coming through. I think the best we can hope for a "British win" is Bernal riding for Ineos. Similarly once Cav calls it a day where is the next top British sprinter. After all the years of success I'm surprised at just how anonymous and lacklustre Ineos have been at this TDF (not even a stage win), particularly as it's always been their prime target each year. Some serious recruitment needs to be done if they are to regain the top step of the podium, they can't just rely on Bernal. Just a thought, have we witnessed the "golden era" of Sky/Ineos/British riders winning and the cycle (pardon the pun) is now back to the "norm" of European riders dominating again. Exactly normal service as been resumed
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 14:36:57 GMT
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Post by Bod on Jul 18, 2021 14:36:57 GMT
Let’s see what happens with Pidcock in years to come. That guy is exciting, but I hope that he doesn’t get sacrificed at the stage race altar given how talented he is for the Classics.
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Post by salopstick on Jul 18, 2021 16:09:42 GMT
Riding in to Paris then a lap of the champs elysee is one of the best things I’ve done on a bike
Can’t wait for this. Hope Cav does it. No better stage to take the record
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 16:45:25 GMT
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Post by Bod on Jul 18, 2021 16:45:25 GMT
I enjoy Hatch on commentary generally, but his tendency to overhype is a bit grating at times. I know he can’t say ‘This was a bit of a dud’ but don’t paint it as something it wasn’t. Anyhow, more importantly, come on Cav!!!
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 16:54:00 GMT
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Post by salopstick on Jul 18, 2021 16:54:00 GMT
Just as impressive is not just being in the mix on sprint stages but getting through the mountains. To make the time on some of those stages has been both a massive team and individual effort.
I did a tour esque long hilly ride yesterday and I couldn’t contemplate getting on a bike today so for him to do the ventoux stage, the Pyrenees stage and still be here at business end of sprints is a phenomenal effort
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 17:13:14 GMT
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Post by andystokey on Jul 18, 2021 17:13:14 GMT
Quickstep have done an amazing job so far
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 17:20:43 GMT
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Post by andystokey on Jul 18, 2021 17:20:43 GMT
Had to take his foot off, just blocked half a wheel
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 17:22:32 GMT
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Post by Bod on Jul 18, 2021 17:22:32 GMT
The one sprint stage that DQS made a bit of a balls up of, but would be harsh to criticise them really. WVA is pure quality though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 17:36:07 GMT
Oh well, so near for Cav but a disappointing finish for him. Great ride by Van Aert though, he's some rider, mountain win, time trial, and now a sprint finish. Great race for Cav equalling Merckx's record, but today sums it up really, disappointing end to a disappointing TDF. Hopefully the Vuelta will be more competitive and entertaining.
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 17:40:23 GMT
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Post by salopstick on Jul 18, 2021 17:40:23 GMT
Oh well, so near for Cav but a disappointing finish for him. Great ride by Van Aert though, he's some rider, mountain win, time trial, and now a sprint finish. Great race for Cav equalling Merckx's record, but today sums it up really, disappointing end to a disappointing TDF. Hopefully the Vuelta will be more competitive and entertaining. Cav may not get another tour
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Post by Bod on Jul 18, 2021 17:56:11 GMT
If, and it’s a big if, the Vuelta startlist remains the same as it is now then it is stacked. It’s my favourite of the 3 GT’s since they abandoned the format of running stages up dual carriageways for mile after mile. The course is usually a bit mental too and it’s good for those who are trying to salvage a season/secure a new contract. Hopefully it delivers.
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2021 TDF
Jul 18, 2021 18:25:47 GMT
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Bod likes this
Post by stokeuk474 on Jul 18, 2021 18:25:47 GMT
If, and it’s a big if, the Vuelta startlist remains the same as it is now then it is stacked. It’s my favourite of the 3 GT’s since they abandoned the format of running stages up dual carriageways for mile after mile. The course is usually a bit mental too and it’s good for those who are trying to salvage a season/secure a new contract. Hopefully it delivers. Got to admit, as beautiful as the Giro and the Tour are, I also love the Vuelta. Always look forward to September because of the Vuelta and the Tour of Britain. As you say, very competitive race with all the GC contenders who missed out earlier in the season looking for a win, and riders doing everything they can to get new contracts. Great weather too, always reminds me of going on holiday to Spain in September when I was younger.
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