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2021 TDF
Jul 5, 2021 13:09:45 GMT
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Post by salopstick on Jul 5, 2021 13:09:45 GMT
The most likely cause is the current crop of GC riders are either aging so on the wane or still young. Guys who were challenging ineos a few years ago seem nowhere now That makes the odd good guy look better than what he is Ineos have had a shocker so far haven't they. I think at the moment their main GCs are either too old finished or too young. Would loved to have seen Bernal against rogilic and pogacar. They may have gone all in for giro and vuelta thinking they were just not strong enough for this years tour
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Post by neworleanstokie on Jul 5, 2021 13:22:35 GMT
It's a real shame that Pogacar's performances to date will always provoke the question 'is he clean?'. I almost felt guilty for asking this question in my head. However, I was talking to a good friend about the TdF and he came straight out and said the same thing. Stunning performance.. if clean! It seems everyone who watches cycling has this question. I wonder how many cycling journalists are currently snooping around the bins at the back of Pogacar's hotel? 🤔 I felt exactly the same ! I had always thought and hoped that all of Team Sky's wins were clean. I'd read the book "InsideTeam Sky" by David Walsh (who exposed Lance Armstrong). He was embedded in Team Sky for the 2013 TDF and he concluded that as far as he could ascertain Team Sky were 100% clean - then the Wiggins jiffy bag questiions from 2012 came years later. Froome seemed and still does IMO seem clean, even though there were the salbutamol questions later. Thomas's and Bernal's victories seemed clean, and also still do IMO. Last year seemed clean with Roglic all set to win until Pogacar's anazing race winning time trial on stage 20 overturned the result when he hadn't previously shown such prowess. Serious questions were raised about the nature of that astonishing performance. This year already we have seen several examples of Pogacar's utterly incredible and dominant performances - that ride on stage 8 was just amazing. He was on the big ring, on the steepest of climbs, still sat down, and he just swept past his main GC contenders without any apparent real effort. The other big question for me lies with his team management at UAE Emirates - Alexander Vinokourov and Iban Mayo. When Pogacar climbed the Col de Peyresourde on stage 8 he took 45 seconds (3%) off the record set by........Vinokourov and later equalled by Mayo, both of whom tested positive for EPO during their careers. The other camp thinks we are witnessing the early stages of the next TDF great champion who could even surpass the 5 victories acheived by Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, and Indurain, after all Pogacar is still only 22. It may be that the GC contenders (except Roglic) are not in the same league as Pogacar this year (the names in the current top 10 seems to support this), but in my opinion Pogacar's dominant performances do, sadly, raise doubts as it all looks "too easy". Nice write up! I had the same feeling watching Pogacar riding on that big ring sat down. I only ride indoors now but if you have ever pushed yourself to point where you are going to throw up you can understand how effective doping could be to remove that pain so you can push through.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 14:28:25 GMT
I always remember watching Richard Virenque winning the TDF KOM and Phil Liggett was commentating on a particular mountain stage finish. He said something along the the lines of "that's exceptional even for Virenque" and made severalthinly veiled remarks which raised questions about his performances. Only later was Virenque exposed as a drugs cheat, but he refused to own up and was treated as a hero in France.
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Post by Clem Fandango on Jul 5, 2021 15:11:17 GMT
Ineos have had a shocker so far haven't they. I think at the moment their main GCs are either too old finished or too young. Would loved to have seen Bernal against rogilic and pogacar. They may have gone all in for giro and vuelta thinking they were just not strong enough for this years tour Yeah it would have been good to see that trio compete although you want all three to be on top form. There are still question marks over Bernal's back which is a shame it'll be interesting to see he shows up at the Vuelta along with Roglic.
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Jul 5, 2021 15:23:21 GMT
Sadly because of the sport's history, these questions will always crop up. The difference between Wiggins and Froome's victories were that they weren't just riding away from the rest of the field by minutes, their wins were by much smaller margins. You could argue that Wiggins wouldn't have won without the time trials. Pogacar could just turn out to be one of those freak athletes who is just simply gifted, but we will only know further down the line I suppose. I agree about Wiggins and Froome, plus Ithink the opposition was better. With Pogacar time will tell (as with Armstrong !), but for me with Vinokourov and Mayo as his team management there will always be a strong element of doubt. Don't know about Mayo, but Vinokourov was* manager at Astana, not UAE. *he was sacked a matter of days before this year's Tour. I know what is going on in this thread is just a healthy discussion of doping which should never go away from cycling, however I do question why the frothing at the mouth commenters below the line on various websites even bother watching the sport if every champion's victory is immediate proof of their doping. On the other hand, these comments by Thomas De Ghent are slightly concerning against the background of the massive reduction in out of competition testing that has resulted from the pandemic. Hopefully he just needs to recalibrate his power meter. www.cyclingnews.com/news/de-gendt-its-clear-that-the-general-level-is-just-much-higher-at-the-tour-de-france/
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 15:44:17 GMT
I agree about Wiggins and Froome, plus Ithink the opposition was better. With Pogacar time will tell (as with Armstrong !), but for me with Vinokourov and Mayo as his team management there will always be a strong element of doubt. Don't know about Mayo, but Vinokourov was* manager at Astana, not UAE. *he was sacked a matter of days before this year's Tour. I know what is going on in this thread is just a healthy discussion of doping which should never go away from cycling, however I do question why the frothing at the mouth commenters below the line on various websites even bother watching the sport if every champion's victory is immediate proof of their doping. On the other hand, these comments by Thomas De Ghent are slightly concerning against the background of the massive reduction in out of competition testing that has resulted from the pandemic. Hopefully he just needs to recalibrate his power meter. www.cyclingnews.com/news/de-gendt-its-clear-that-the-general-level-is-just-much-higher-at-the-tour-de-france/I've had a mare there about Vinokourov ! Although I definitely read an article in the run up to this years Tdf where it referred to him as UAE Emirates team director, and Mayo as joint DS, and their possible "influence" on Pogacar. Looks like the journo had his wires crossed, knotted, and rewired ! As for doping in general, I had hoped (probably naively) it had gone away and tbh so far this year I've not really seen anything to raise my concerns, apart from Pogacar, and possibly Ben O'Connor yesterday (although I put that down to him just having the ride of his career to date). It's the Pogacar rides that just seem too good, and too easy. I hadn previously seen the comments by de Gendt, but it worrying if he's right.
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Jul 5, 2021 16:36:00 GMT
Don't know about Mayo, but Vinokourov was* manager at Astana, not UAE. *he was sacked a matter of days before this year's Tour. I know what is going on in this thread is just a healthy discussion of doping which should never go away from cycling, however I do question why the frothing at the mouth commenters below the line on various websites even bother watching the sport if every champion's victory is immediate proof of their doping. On the other hand, these comments by Thomas De Ghent are slightly concerning against the background of the massive reduction in out of competition testing that has resulted from the pandemic. Hopefully he just needs to recalibrate his power meter. www.cyclingnews.com/news/de-gendt-its-clear-that-the-general-level-is-just-much-higher-at-the-tour-de-france/I've had a mare there about Vinokourov ! Although I definitely read an article in the run up to this years Tdf where it referred to him as UAE Emirates team director, and Mayo as joint DS, and their possible "influence" on Pogacar. Looks like the journo had his wires crossed, knotted, and rewired ! As for doping in general, I had hoped (probably naively) it had gone away and tbh so far this year I've not really seen anything to raise my concerns, apart from Pogacar, and possibly Ben O'Connor yesterday (although I put that down to him just having the ride of his career to date). It's the Pogacar rides that just seem too good, and too easy. I hadn previously seen the comments by de Gendt, but it worrying if he's right. Ha no worries. FWIW The Cycling Podcast were talking about the UAE staff today. Was only half paying attention but seemed like there were one or two on their staff who are tainted by doping, but that's par for the course. Encouragingly, they said Pog's coach is a senior US academic with a pretty big reputation in other fields at stake, so they suggested he seems an unlikely candidate to be facilitating doping. Journalists can often be blinded into overstating the credentials of those in the medical field however.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 19:55:13 GMT
Pleased that the first rest day is out of the way and stage 10 tomorrow has a chance of echelons in the last 30 kms but a sprint finish in Valence is expected. Cav must be favourite to make it number 33. If not Cav then I wouldn't be surprised if either Sonny Colbrelli or Wout Van Aert won.
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2021 TDF
Jul 5, 2021 20:10:02 GMT
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Post by salopstick on Jul 5, 2021 20:10:02 GMT
Pleased that the first rest day is out of the way and stage 10 tomorrow has a chance of echelons in the last 30 kms but a sprint finish in Valence is expected. Cav must be favourite to make it number 33. If not Cav then I wouldn't be surprised if either Sonny Colbrelli or Wout Van Aert won. This week it’s all about ventoux
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 20:17:18 GMT
Pleased that the first rest day is out of the way and stage 10 tomorrow has a chance of echelons in the last 30 kms but a sprint finish in Valence is expected. Cav must be favourite to make it number 33. If not Cav then I wouldn't be surprised if either Sonny Colbrelli or Wout Van Aert won. This week it’s all about ventoux Yep, twice in one stage - epic !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 15:36:05 GMT
Get In !
Number 33 for Cav !
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Post by Clem Fandango on Jul 6, 2021 15:36:24 GMT
Awesome stuff
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2021 TDF
Jul 6, 2021 15:56:11 GMT
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Post by Bod on Jul 6, 2021 15:56:11 GMT
Top stuff. Pleased to see WVA up there too. Felt a little for Colbrelli after his mechanical when the race was really ticking, but these things happen. Cavendish has a really decent gap in the green now, but I wonder what could happen if Matthews gets in a few soft breaks, even though DQS will try to prevent it. Bloody dull stage, but the end made it worth it.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 6, 2021 15:58:49 GMT
Changing the subject slightly I only got round to watch the SKY documentary on Marco Pantani (the last winner of the TDF and Giro in the same calendar year) last night. A troubled soul, but what a mountain climber he was. Recommend it to anyone that hasn't seen it.......
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 15:59:18 GMT
The promised echelons didn't have as much effect as they could have done, there maybe thepossibility of some on the stage to Carcassonne.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 16:01:27 GMT
Changing the subject slightly I only got round to watch the SKY documentary on Marco Pantani (the last winner of the TDF and Giro in the same calendar year) last night. A troubled soul, but what a mountain climber he was. Recommend it to anyone that hasn't seen it....... He certainly was a brilliant climber, particularly when he was "fully fuelled" with a few "added extras". Very apt nickname of The Pirate.
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2021 TDF
Jul 6, 2021 16:02:48 GMT
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Post by franklin on Jul 6, 2021 16:02:48 GMT
Cav is about to become a TDF legendary figure he's amazing 👏
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 6, 2021 16:10:07 GMT
Changing the subject slightly I only got round to watch the SKY documentary on Marco Pantani (the last winner of the TDF and Giro in the same calendar year) last night. A troubled soul, but what a mountain climber he was. Recommend it to anyone that hasn't seen it....... He certainly was a brilliant climber, particularly when he was "fully fuelled" with a few "added extras". Very apt nickname of The Pirate. The drug issue is a complicated one as it was rife around that time. For young riders been given professional contracts they were simply a cog in the wheel of these huge programmes teams had in place. Such a shame as climbing wise he was off the scale, an absolute freak of nature.......
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 16:13:56 GMT
Strollin home
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 6, 2021 16:16:13 GMT
Strollin home Great picture......
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 16:57:42 GMT
Strollin home Magic ! Hopefully he can break the record during this Tour. He's got the best lead out train at DQS as well. After Sunday's stage, when Cav beat the cut off time by just 97 seconds (!), he must be favourite for any remaining sprints after Arnaud Demare and Bryan Coquard missed the cut and Tim Merlier abandoned. Even Greg Van Avermaet diced with elimination after coming home with only five seconds to spare !
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Post by Bod on Jul 6, 2021 17:19:48 GMT
Changing the subject slightly I only got round to watch the SKY documentary on Marco Pantani (the last winner of the TDF and Giro in the same calendar year) last night. A troubled soul, but what a mountain climber he was. Recommend it to anyone that hasn't seen it....... Pantani will forever be one of my favourites. The doping issue in cycling has never bothered me or impacted my enjoyment. I disliked Armstrong as a personality and the fact that the authorities were complicit in his PED use, as opposed to disliking him because he was popped. Having ridden against people (even at amateur level) who dabbled in PED’s it didn’t bother me then either as they would have still beaten me comfortably. I’m more affronted by seeing polka dots shorts, jersey and socks 😉
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Post by salopstick on Jul 6, 2021 17:20:18 GMT
Amazing if he does it in Paris
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 23:00:09 GMT
Changing the subject slightly I only got round to watch the SKY documentary on Marco Pantani (the last winner of the TDF and Giro in the same calendar year) last night. A troubled soul, but what a mountain climber he was. Recommend it to anyone that hasn't seen it....... The Pirate a legend RIP
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2021 TDF
Jul 7, 2021 5:56:53 GMT
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Bod likes this
Post by salopstick on Jul 7, 2021 5:56:53 GMT
I’ve been looking forward to today since the route was announced
Shame they are not doing all three ascents
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2021 TDF
Jul 7, 2021 16:07:22 GMT
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Post by salopstick on Jul 7, 2021 16:07:22 GMT
I absolutely love that mountain.
Unbelievable stage. Plus Cav makes the time
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2021 TDF
Jul 7, 2021 16:29:53 GMT
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Post by Bod on Jul 7, 2021 16:29:53 GMT
I absolutely love that mountain. Unbelievable stage. Plus Cav makes the time Really? I thought it was a complete non-event. The stage win was a foregone conclusion from a looonng way out and the GC battle didn’t happen, aside from a little dig by Vingegaard, which gained him nothing aside from a bit of hope for the next mountain stages. It’s why I booked time off in the first week to watch the hillier stages rather than the ones that are billled as epic. I did enjoy seeing WVA showing that he is a human Swiss Army knife though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2021 16:48:01 GMT
I absolutely love that mountain. Unbelievable stage. Plus Cav makes the time Really? I thought it was a complete non-event. The stage win was a foregone conclusion from a looonng way out and the GC battle didn’t happen, aside from a little dig by Vingegaard, which gained him nothing aside from a bit of hope for the next mountain stages. It’s why I booked time off in the first week to watch the hillier stages rather than the ones that are billled as epic. I did enjoy seeing WVA showing that he is a human Swiss Army knife though. Same here - for the first time since I've watched stages on Mont Ventoux I actually thought it was a little bit boring today. I'd been expecting an epic GC battle and it just didn't happen. Maybe I'm feeling like that because there's no British interest in the GC this year, Ineos have really been very disappointing, and Pogacar still looks comfortable in the GC. I'm pleased Cav made the cut so we've still got the possibility that he might equal or even beat 34 wins - fingers crossed.
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Post by salopstick on Jul 7, 2021 17:56:15 GMT
I watched from the start. Maybe I like the mountain so much. But watching a breakaway trying to form at the start and alaphillpe doing well for the first half.
I just love seeing all the places where I’ve spewed my ring up on the ventoux
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2021 18:21:02 GMT
34 for Cav tomorrow ? Looks like a possibility of strong side winds and echelons forming. Hopefully he can do it !
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