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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jan 10, 2021 9:29:09 GMT
Maybe if we can field an actual left-back at some point...? I think allowing the injury crisis to dictate our game plan is poor management and extremely negative. Agree with Bayern it would be far more positive and in the best interest of the fit players available to play to their strengths. Plugging the gap at leftback would be miles better than witnessing the car crash we have seen recently. Oh and reintroduce Cousins and fuck off Vokes would also help. Disagree completely - a manager has to adapt the game plan to suit the players and with the only "proper" full back out injured 5 at the back is currently our best option. Have people forgot where blind faith in the diamond got us already? We've done better this season when we've played with wingbacks than when we've gone 4 at the back and yesterday was a case in point - when we switched to 4 at the back with a makeshift left back we fell apart. O'Neill has said his preferred formation is 433 with inverted wingers and the signing of of Matondo and the interest in Doughty and Pickering indicate that that is where he wants us to go. However until he gets the right players in pace I can't see him playing 433 just as a point of principle.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 9:33:32 GMT
Who exactly? With Fox out our only other left back (Tymon) isn't really a left back, hasn't played well there and seems to be injured at the moment anyway. McLean can't play left back but can improvise as a wing back, same for Clucas. Seemingly our academy don't have a competent left back either from all reports. Until we can convince a left back to join us we are stuck with wing backs. In fact despite the carping O'Neill has actually preferred 4 at the back this season until Fox's injury made it impossible. If the opposition only play one forward it doesn't mean that we have to sit back and defend with 5.in fact yesterday it was noticeable that Batth in particular but also Souttar were playing more like full backs when we were doing well in the first half an hour. which is as it should be. I think that at half time Rodgers told Leicester to push higher up the pitch which coupled with Shawcross, Brown and Allen tiring meant that we dropped deeper and our lack of full backs showed. McClean has been appalling at left wing back. Why would playing a back four with, say, Smith at left back (I think even Collins had a couple of decent games there in pre-season) be any worse? What would we lose? I wouldn't play Smith at RB so lb definitely not. Clucas is probably best bet but he looks nowhere near fit. We desperately need a competent lb. There must be a league one lb who can make the step up who we could get cheaply. Most div one clubs are desperate for money.
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Post by questionable on Jan 10, 2021 9:51:31 GMT
This wing back system has to go. Most teams have played one striker against us recently. We have three centre halves. They just overload us out wide and pen us back.. We haven't got the wing backs to play this system therefore can't play our way up the pitch. Just end up passing back to recycle it forward where Vokes or Brown lose it. Madness..... "Vis Unita Fortior" Same can be said for a number of our recent managers trying the same system, square pegs round holes, McLean at LB time and time again being targeted by the opposition as we have no other options, to a certain extent the RB. There’s a steadier manager at the club but tactically not much better than Jones
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Post by Trouserdog on Jan 10, 2021 10:01:00 GMT
I don't know who was supposed to be left-back once we switched to 4 at the back (I think it was Clucas) but we soon transformed from a defensively solid team that doesn't look like scoring to a defensive shambles that doesn't look like scoring.
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Post by cheadlestokie on Jan 10, 2021 10:19:01 GMT
It seems to me that in the modern game the most vital positions are right snd left back.
The correct players in those positions give the team balance both defensively and in attack.
Just how long is it since we had two good players in those positions?
Not difficult to see why Jones wanted Justin.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jan 10, 2021 10:19:19 GMT
I think allowing the injury crisis to dictate our game plan is poor management and extremely negative. Agree with Bayern it would be far more positive and in the best interest of the fit players available to play to their strengths. Plugging the gap at leftback would be miles better than witnessing the car crash we have seen recently. Oh and reintroduce Cousins and fuck off Vokes would also help. Disagree completely - a manager has to adapt the game plan to suit the players and with the only "proper" full back out injured 5 at the back is currently our best option. Have people forgot where blind faith in the diamond got us already? We've done better this season when we've played with wingbacks than when we've gone 4 at the back and yesterday was a case in point - when we switched to 4 at the back with a makeshift left back we fell apart. O'Neill has said his preferred formation is 433 with inverted wingers and the signing of of Matondo and the interest in Doughty and Pickering indicate that that is where he wants us to go. However until he gets the right players in pace I can't see him playing 433 just as a point of principle. I'm not a fan of 433 at all, it leaves the striker too isolated without a number 10 and our best player Powell gets shoehorned in somewhere. If you're playing 4 at the back it has to be 4231
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Post by damagedswan on Jan 10, 2021 10:24:33 GMT
I'd honestly be trying all sorts of square pegs in round holes rather than play 3 at the back with wing-backs any more. By sticking with this set-up we're denying ourselves any chance of a more attacking formation just so that McClean can play LWB badly - and we've actually got a glut of potential wingers who could actually play... Matondo, Verlinden, Brown, Ince, McClean. How bad can Tommy Smith be at LB ffs? How bad can Clucas be there? Tbh, today's game doesn't really matter at all, but we've got to try something new because we've thrown so many points away at shit opposition these last 10 games or so. How bad can Clucas be there? The last 30 mins or so gave a perfect answer, as Sam was tried there and any semblance we had of defence collapsed. To go out there and be worse than McClean in the left back position takes some doing, but Clucas succeeded. Tbf everyone of our defenders, Collins, Sgawcross, Souttar, and Clucas himself harboured notions of going forward and scoring goals for us; the result of course was an open house at the bet365... Fair enough. I'd rather he had tried Smith there with Collins at RB than Clucas, but even then I'm not sure if I'd end the experiment after 30 minutes chasing the game against an extremely good Premier League team. In general I am moaning after the horse has bolted, because obviously Plan A should be buying a LB.
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Post by boweryboy on Jan 10, 2021 10:25:38 GMT
Don't be conned by O'Neill that Fox's injury is forcing us to play this system, because it's not, when Fox was fit he played him in the back three left side,all along he has been enforcing this system,now we are not getting away with it because of Campbell's injury....and yes we had become a one man team,it was going to happen at some point in a season !!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jan 10, 2021 10:35:40 GMT
This wing back system has to go. Most teams have played one striker against us recently. We have three centre halves. They just overload us out wide and pen us back.. We haven't got the wing backs to play this system therefore can't play our way up the pitch. Just end up passing back to recycle it forward where Vokes or Brown lose it. Madness..... "Vis Unita Fortior" Same can be said for a number of our recent managers trying the same system, square pegs round holes, McLean at LB time and time again being targeted by the opposition as we have no other options, to a certain extent the RB. There’s a steadier manager at the club but tactically not much better than Jones Nonsense. Jones had one tactic - O'Neill has already shown he's got far more tactical ideas than Jones. The problem is he's constrained by injuries and gaps in the squad he inherited.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 10, 2021 10:39:31 GMT
Don't be conned by O'Neill that Fox's injury is forcing us to play this system, because it's not, when Fox was fit he played him in the back three left side,all along he has been enforcing this system,now we are not getting away with it because of Campbell's injury....and yes we had become a one man team,it was going to happen at some point in a season !! No he didn't. He tried that but soon went to a flat back 4 with Fox at left back which is when we played our best football this season with Tyrese as right wing. The loss of Campbell was immense but the loss of Fox almost matches it. He was providing the crosses for the few goals we were scoring. Very underrated on here.
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Post by numpty40 on Jan 10, 2021 10:51:11 GMT
It seems to me that in the modern game the most vital positions are right snd left back. The correct players in those positions give the team balance both defensively and in attack. Just how long is it since we had two good players in those positions? Not difficult to see why Jones wanted Justin. Yes, also remember seeing Lloyd Kelly playing for Bristol City in our first season after relegation and suggesting we try and get him to the club. Imagine Justin at right back and Kelly at left back!!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jan 10, 2021 10:54:42 GMT
Disagree completely - a manager has to adapt the game plan to suit the players and with the only "proper" full back out injured 5 at the back is currently our best option. Have people forgot where blind faith in the diamond got us already? We've done better this season when we've played with wingbacks than when we've gone 4 at the back and yesterday was a case in point - when we switched to 4 at the back with a makeshift left back we fell apart. O'Neill has said his preferred formation is 433 with inverted wingers and the signing of of Matondo and the interest in Doughty and Pickering indicate that that is where he wants us to go. However until he gets the right players in pace I can't see him playing 433 just as a point of principle. I'm not a fan of 433 at all, it leaves the striker too isolated without a number 10 and our best player Powell gets shoehorned in somewhere. If you're playing 4 at the back it has to be 4231 I hated the 433 Rowett used with 2 playing as wingers - that does leave the central striker isolated. However O'Neill's 433 will be 2 inside forwards/inverted wingers which gives the central strike even more support. The right footed Matondo has already said his preferred position is on the left and was slotted into that position yesterday which I think is a sign of the way the side will shape up when we have a left back available. I'm afraid I don't share your confidence in Powell. It's dangerous to shape your team around player anyway and Powell isn't that good or that consistent to even merit taking that risk. You can even make a case for him being the central striker in a three - he can pick a pass, good in the air, score's goals, has played upfront in the past and his ability to fall over at the slightest touch might even buy us the odd penalty.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 10, 2021 10:58:18 GMT
Yes Powell is our best player but not consistent enough to build a team around and anyway we've seen where building a team around your best player leaves you when he gets injured.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 11:07:03 GMT
How bad can Clucas be there? The last 30 mins or so gave a perfect answer, as Sam was tried there and any semblance we had of defence collapsed. To go out there and be worse than McClean in the left back position takes some doing, but Clucas succeeded. Tbf everyone of our defenders, Collins, Sgawcross, Souttar, and Clucas himself harboured notions of going forward and scoring goals for us; the result of course was an open house at the bet365... Fair enough. I'd rather he had tried Smith there with Collins at RB than Clucas, but even then I'm not sure if I'd end the experiment after 30 minutes chasing the game against an extremely good Premier League team. In general I am moaning after the horse has bolted, because obviously Plan A should be buying a LB. Sounds easy. Obviously it's not.
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Post by shrewspotter on Jan 10, 2021 11:38:17 GMT
McClean was a wank signing full stop. Tried hard etc etc but no quality Erm, didn't he win 'player of the season' about 6 months ago? he did and in fairness had a decent run towards the end of the season I don’t want to take anything away from him but if you look at last seasons candidates there was literally no competition for that award bar Sam Clucas (who is equally as toss in my opinion), also I’d argue that it was McCleans application that won him the award as opposed to his match winning contributions. When you consider what we paid and even with his player of the year award, what is his value now? I’d say under 1 million, so with that point I’d say he was yet another poor buy from the transfer team. However out of the shit buys of the last 2 years he is nowhere near top of the list
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Post by shrewspotter on Jan 10, 2021 11:42:22 GMT
It seems to me that in the modern game the most vital positions are right snd left back. The correct players in those positions give the team balance both defensively and in attack. Just how long is it since we had two good players in those positions? Not difficult to see why Jones wanted Justin. I think for forward thinking teams this has been the case for many seasons. I remember when Keegan took over at Newcastle, he made a point of going for 2 very good fullbacks in John Beresford and Barry Venison and used these 2 as attacking options as well as being very good defensively
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Post by cheadlestokie on Jan 10, 2021 12:24:25 GMT
Maclean did win player of the season because O'Neill played him as an out and out left winger for a spell.
We are now back to playing him at wingback and he is rubbish.
Generally though when i see again yesterday that he was in really good positions twice in the second half well towards their penalty area and his delivery was atrocious I have to say that I have had my fill of him for all his effort.
One free cross went so far behind the goal it was untrue and the other barely made it off the ground.
Both times when under no challenge.
That together with the statue that is Vokes I find to be totally unacceptable and I would like to think I will never see either of them in a Stoke side again. ( I think I am going to be disappointed )
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 10, 2021 15:28:26 GMT
Same can be said for a number of our recent managers trying the same system, square pegs round holes, McLean at LB time and time again being targeted by the opposition as we have no other options, to a certain extent the RB. There’s a steadier manager at the club but tactically not much better than Jones Nonsense. Jones had one tactic - O'Neill has already shown he's got far more tactical ideas than Jones. The problem is he's constrained by injuries and gaps in the squad he inherited. Jones tried loads of different things. I mean I don’t think he had tactics but he didn’t just try one formation.
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Post by Miles Offside on Jan 10, 2021 18:34:14 GMT
There might be a handful of top teams with extremely athletic players who can get up and down the flanks as wing-backs while clever midfielders cover any gaps they leave, but we aren't one of them.
Watching a bang average right-back trying to double up as a winger, and a bang average left winger trying to double up as a full- back, was painful. Again.
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Post by meirman61 on Jan 10, 2021 19:22:57 GMT
How long is it now that we've been debating this bloody wing back system, how many managers have had a dabble while all the time we haven't had no actual wing-backs.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jan 10, 2021 20:17:35 GMT
It’s a tried and tested formation that clearly doesn’t work. So why does he do... keep trying with it! It’s abysmal management. We simply don’t have wing backs. The only wing back we have at this football club is Bauer and he’s not going be playing any time soon. The worry for me is the manager cannot see it yet every bugger else can Even bigger worry that he thought it was the way to go even when we had Fox in the side.
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Jan 12, 2021 17:50:09 GMT
Disagree completely - a manager has to adapt the game plan to suit the players and with the only "proper" full back out injured 5 at the back is currently our best option. Have people forgot where blind faith in the diamond got us already? We've done better this season when we've played with wingbacks than when we've gone 4 at the back and yesterday was a case in point - when we switched to 4 at the back with a makeshift left back we fell apart. O'Neill has said his preferred formation is 433 with inverted wingers and the signing of of Matondo and the interest in Doughty and Pickering indicate that that is where he wants us to go. However until he gets the right players in pace I can't see him playing 433 just as a point of principle. I'm not a fan of 433 at all, it leaves the striker too isolated without a number 10 and our best player Powell gets shoehorned in somewhere. If you're playing 4 at the back it has to be 4231 This.
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Post by nott1 on Jan 12, 2021 17:58:56 GMT
Not when we sign the new speedy wing back!
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 12, 2021 18:06:27 GMT
How long is it now that we've been debating this bloody wing back system, how many managers have had a dabble while all the time we haven't had no actual wing-backs. This is absolutely true, an abomination of a formation, however bringing in the new left back at least gives us an option to play a back 4 or 5 that we haven’t had before so in that respect it’s a good signing
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Post by moon on Jan 12, 2021 18:07:17 GMT
Not when we sign the new speedy wing back! RND or Doughty? I was hoping RND would be played LB and Doughty as LW, I hope we’re not intending on keeping wing backs, wouldn’t surprise me though. The CBs have a lot to learn if we are keeping 3 of them back there too, they often seen confused with the system when one is dragged out wide.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 12, 2021 18:09:07 GMT
I'm not a fan of 433 at all, it leaves the striker too isolated without a number 10 and our best player Powell gets shoehorned in somewhere. If you're playing 4 at the back it has to be 4231 This. I think O’Neill wants to play 4-3-3 though and it can work without a recognised centre forward, that’s the beauty of it. Especially for us, since we haven’t had a decent one since Peter Thorne!
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Jan 12, 2021 18:34:27 GMT
I think O’Neill wants to play 4-3-3 though and it can work without a recognised centre forward, that’s the beauty of it. Especially for us, since we haven’t had a decent one since Peter Thorne! Which players would play in this 433? And don't reply Stoke ones!
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 12, 2021 18:50:49 GMT
I think O’Neill wants to play 4-3-3 though and it can work without a recognised centre forward, that’s the beauty of it. Especially for us, since we haven’t had a decent one since Peter Thorne! Which players would play in this 433? And don't reply Stoke ones! At the moment I don’t believe we have the players for it but I reckon that’s what he’s aiming for. Unfortunately our best footballer(Powell) doesn’t really fit that formation. But we should look beyond Powell, he’s not the be all and end all is he?
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Jan 12, 2021 19:02:18 GMT
Which players would play in this 433? And don't reply Stoke ones! At the moment I don’t believe we have the players for it but I reckon that’s what he’s aiming for. Unfortunately our best footballer(Powell) doesn’t really fit that formation. But we should look beyond Powell, he’s not the be all and end all is he? What players of the current crop....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 19:47:18 GMT
Which players would play in this 433? And don't reply Stoke ones! At the moment I don’t believe we have the players for it but I reckon that’s what he’s aiming for. Unfortunately our best footballer(Powell) doesn’t really fit that formation. But we should look beyond Powell, We should not.
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