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Post by kevkj on Jan 9, 2021 17:20:28 GMT
This wing back system has to go. Most teams have played one striker against us recently. We have three centre halves. They just overload us out wide and pen us back.. We haven't got the wing backs to play this system therefore can't play our way up the pitch. Just end up passing back to recycle it forward where Vokes or Brown lose it. Madness.....
"Vis Unita Fortior"
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Post by FullerMagic on Jan 9, 2021 17:21:19 GMT
Maybe if we can field an actual left-back at some point...?
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Post by ravey123 on Jan 9, 2021 17:37:07 GMT
This wing back system has to go. Most teams have played one striker against us recently. We have three centre halves. They just overload us out wide and pen us back.. We haven't got the wing backs to play this system therefore can't play our way up the pitch. Just end up passing back to recycle it forward where Vokes or Brown lose it. Madness..... "Vis Unita Fortior" You either play A - 4 at the back with traditional fullbacks or B - 5 at the back with pacey attacking fullbacks. We try to play B with the players for A and it is absolute dogshit
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Post by milky on Jan 9, 2021 17:43:01 GMT
We need a left back desperately.
Collins has to be right back.
Cousins has to come back.
That's even before we work out what to do with the other end of the pitch.
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Post by damagedswan on Jan 9, 2021 18:58:56 GMT
I'd honestly be trying all sorts of square pegs in round holes rather than play 3 at the back with wing-backs any more. By sticking with this set-up we're denying ourselves any chance of a more attacking formation just so that McClean can play LWB badly - and we've actually got a glut of potential wingers who could actually play... Matondo, Verlinden, Brown, Ince, McClean. How bad can Tommy Smith be at LB ffs? How bad can Clucas be there? Tbh, today's game doesn't really matter at all, but we've got to try something new because we've thrown so many points away at shit opposition these last 10 games or so.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jan 9, 2021 19:01:31 GMT
I love MON but can't understand the thinking behind playing Batth and Souttar on the ends of a back 3. In that system those positions need pace as you sometimes need to come out and do the job of a full back.
It was awful
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Post by lordb on Jan 9, 2021 19:01:46 GMT
We can't play anything other than wingbacks until Fox is back unless we sign another left back Go get Pickering of course Tymon looks like he can have good games in midfield but he's not a left back McLean at left back...no.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 9, 2021 19:02:18 GMT
Again there is absolutely no reason for him to be playing this formation.
He can improvise a left back like he’s persisting improvising a left wing back.
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Post by ChrisKamarasPerm on Jan 9, 2021 20:04:59 GMT
Time to bring Wimmer in at left back?
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Post by shrewspotter on Jan 9, 2021 20:08:22 GMT
Maybe if we can field an actual left-back at some point...? that’s the issue. MON doesn’t trust anyone at lb other than Fox, so while he is injured it’s a 3 at the back with wingbacks. I’m a bit surprised Tymon didn’t deputies there but undoubtably we need to fix it desperately
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 9, 2021 20:10:11 GMT
Maybe if we can field an actual left-back at some point...? that’s the issue. MON doesn’t trust anyone at lb other than Fox, so while he is injured it’s a 3 at the back with wingbacks. I’m a bit surprised Tymon didn’t deputies there but undoubtably we need to fix it desperately Which is bad management because McClean has been the worst player in the team for a while now. That he won’t fudge a left back but persists with something that isn’t working is worrying. There is absolutely no excuse for it.
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Post by shrewspotter on Jan 9, 2021 20:11:09 GMT
Again there is absolutely no reason for him to be playing this formation. He can improvise a left back like he’s persisting improvising a left wing back. yeah definitely. We are miles better with a flat back 4. That gives us more control in midfield and dangerous areas We talk about Campbell being a huge loss, but Fox has been too in my opinion. Since he got injured that balance has gone. Also bring back Cousins
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 20:12:09 GMT
Wing back system is fine if you have actual wing backs. We don't.
If you have a player like James Justin playing there it is a very attacking system.
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Post by shrewspotter on Jan 9, 2021 20:12:24 GMT
that’s the issue. MON doesn’t trust anyone at lb other than Fox, so while he is injured it’s a 3 at the back with wingbacks. I’m a bit surprised Tymon didn’t deputies there but undoubtably we need to fix it desperately Which is bad management because McClean has been the worst player in the team for a while now. That he won’t fudge a left back but persists with something that isn’t working is worrying. There is absolutely no excuse for it. McClean was a wank signing full stop. Tried hard etc etc but no quality
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 9, 2021 20:20:25 GMT
And for the “but we have no left back” crew.
We have 0 wing backs.
It’s a terrible excuse.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 9, 2021 20:24:55 GMT
And for the “but we have no left back” crew. We have 0 wing backs. It’s a terrible excuse. Absolutely correct and it’s probably easier to shoehorn someone it at left back than wingback
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Post by Dresden_scfc on Jan 9, 2021 20:25:10 GMT
Again there is absolutely no reason for him to be playing this formation. He can improvise a left back like he’s persisting improvising a left wing back. yeah definitely. We are miles better with a flat back 4. That gives us more control in midfield and dangerous areas We talk about Campbell being a huge loss, but Fox has been too in my opinion. Since he got injured that balance has gone. Also bring back Cousins Fox is a huge loss, he was looking decent with more consistent good crossing
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 20:26:47 GMT
It’s a tried and tested formation that clearly doesn’t work. So why does he do... keep trying with it! It’s abysmal management. We simply don’t have wing backs. The only wing back we have at this football club is Bauer and he’s not going be playing any time soon. The worry for me is the manager cannot see it yet every bugger else can
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 9, 2021 20:38:52 GMT
And for the “but we have no left back” crew. We have 0 wing backs. It’s a terrible excuse. Absolutely correct and it’s probably easier to shoehorn someone it at left back than wingback Definitely. Just tell them to defend and don’t go past the halfway line.
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Post by karl on Jan 9, 2021 20:39:33 GMT
It’s a tried and tested formation that clearly doesn’t work. So why does he do... keep trying with it! It’s abysmal management. We simply don’t have wing backs. The only wing back we have at this football club is Bauer and he’s not going be playing any time soon. The worry for me is the manager cannot see it yet every bugger else can I think he would stick to 4 at the back if we signed another left back and a right back.
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Post by robstokie on Jan 9, 2021 21:00:07 GMT
The problems for me are
1 - The lack of wing-backs - we dont have anyone who offers the workrate or the technical ability to get up and down the pitch and contribute from wide ares. Furthermore, teams can kill us by doubling up and using the full back to create extra width on the overlap, which pins us back and makes it difficult to break pressure with an out ball or to counter as everyones sat deep which in turn leads to us buckling.
2 - The centre-halfs - most teams who utilise the back 3 (or 5) usually have centre-halfs who are either quick (allowing them to press higher up the pitch gaining territory) or good on the ball (so they can drop into midfield with the ball and build from the back). We seem to have a plethora of very similar type centre-halves - big and strong, but also slow and awkward on the ball, which leads to us sitting deep knowing that if we step up on teams (such as Leicester today, or any team with quick players) we could be caught out by players running at us, or balls in behind plus the lack of technical ability leads to us either hoofing it, losing it under pressure in silly areas or looking for a further midfielder to drop back, thus allowing the opposition to press up on us even more and us losing a player further up the pitch and supply lines to the strikers who then become isolated or drop deep with no outlet, allowing their centre-halves to push up and pin us back even more.
3 - Communication - There seems to be a lack of communication across our back line - things such as whether the centre-half on the wing-backs side drops into the full back position when the wing back is forward (to cut out diagonal balls and keep tabs on the full back creating any potential overlap, thus creating a proxy back 4 if the other wing-back hangs back), do the wing backs push up in tandem, in line with the 3 centre-halves (weve conceded a few from mix ups in when and if to press out from diagonals and through balls into the pockets between centre-half and wing back) or do we alternate our width, does a forward or a midfielder come across to create overlaps/ space for the wing backs to get onto the ball and, my personal bug-bear, who marks the far post from balls coming in from the opposite flank - does the centre-half mark the area, or the runner and does the wing back mark the area, late runner or stay out wide to defend any second ball coming in. These are all things that need to be established so we dont give away cheap goals and, if we did, to prevent further ones - if we dont, well just keep conceding the same goals time and again.
4 - Negativity - Surely, if we were to play 3 centre-halves, then the whole point would be so that the midfield can press up, especially if we were playing percentages or long balls to pick up the scraps, recycle it and push on, so it defeats the object if you are playing a stopper in there and sacrificing a body higher up - you would want a centre-half pressing out to pressure any runners and the other 2 to go narrow behind to prevent the through ball into central areas and clean up anything. This has repercussions further up as if we were to break, we would have less in the way of viable options meaning we would have to wait, giving the opposition time to get behind the ball and set themselves, particularly as...
5 - Confidence - is it just me, or do we never look confident in what we are doing, both defensively (look how many times we slice clearances and give balls away in dangerous areas) and coming forward (how often does anyone look to take on their man, try playing balls forward in attacking positions or try something different (shooting from outside the ball) or make forward runs to play off a second ball and be proactive. Instead we are terribly reactive (we dont look to dictate the tempo or probe, we just sit off teams) and look frightened to lose the ball and play the safe option time and time again, which suggests theres no confidence from players to trust that their teammates will make the effort to get there or be ready to cover if it doesnt come off and we lose possession, this all leads to players, individually and collectively losing confidence.
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Post by leegthestokie90 on Jan 10, 2021 2:57:40 GMT
U need two pacey wing backs for it to work with energy that justin would of been alrite
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Post by potterpaul on Jan 10, 2021 3:41:25 GMT
Maybe if we can field an actual left-back at some point...? I think allowing the injury crisis to dictate our game plan is poor management and extremely negative. Agree with Bayern it would be far more positive and in the best interest of the fit players available to play to their strengths. Plugging the gap at leftback would be miles better than witnessing the car crash we have seen recently. Oh and reintroduce Cousins and fuck off Vokes would also help.
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Post by stokesaint1 on Jan 10, 2021 5:47:39 GMT
We need a left back desperately. Collins has to be right back. Cousins has to come back. That's even before we work out what to do with the other end of the pitch. We need a decent right back just as desperately too. IMO, Collins is a centre back and that's where he should be playing. Until we get one however, I agree Collins at right back is a far better option than Smith. It really is annoying when you consider how long it has been since we had two quality full backs. So long I can't remember when it was. As regards the other end of the pitch, we currently have absolutely nothing with the unavailability of Campbell and Fletcher. And we know Campbell is out for the season and Fletcher was always going to spend at least as much time injured as he does playing. Both ends need addressing, if we are to make anything out of this season, other than total mediocrity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 7:11:33 GMT
I'd honestly be trying all sorts of square pegs in round holes rather than play 3 at the back with wing-backs any more. By sticking with this set-up we're denying ourselves any chance of a more attacking formation just so that McClean can play LWB badly - and we've actually got a glut of potential wingers who could actually play... Matondo, Verlinden, Brown, Ince, McClean. How bad can Tommy Smith be at LB ffs? How bad can Clucas be there? Tbh, today's game doesn't really matter at all, but we've got to try something new because we've thrown so many points away at shit opposition these last 10 games or so. How bad can Clucas be there? The last 30 mins or so gave a perfect answer, as Sam was tried there and any semblance we had of defence collapsed. To go out there and be worse than McClean in the left back position takes some doing, but Clucas succeeded. Tbf everyone of our defenders, Collins, Sgawcross, Souttar, and Clucas himself harboured notions of going forward and scoring goals for us; the result of course was an open house at the bet365...
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Post by zerps on Jan 10, 2021 7:36:33 GMT
It’s a tried and tested formation that clearly doesn’t work. So why does he do... keep trying with it! It’s abysmal management. We simply don’t have wing backs. The only wing back we have at this football club is Bauer and he’s not going be playing any time soon. The worry for me is the manager cannot see it yet every bugger else can He’s been lucky this season with results. Persistent with a formation that has never suited us. Now we’ve started losing and playing shite it looks what it is. Ridiculous.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 10, 2021 9:10:22 GMT
Again there is absolutely no reason for him to be playing this formation. He can improvise a left back like he’s persisting improvising a left wing back. Who exactly? With Fox out our only other left back (Tymon) isn't really a left back, hasn't played well there and seems to be injured at the moment anyway. McLean can't play left back but can improvise as a wing back, same for Clucas. Seemingly our academy don't have a competent left back either from all reports. Until we can convince a left back to join us we are stuck with wing backs. In fact despite the carping O'Neill has actually preferred 4 at the back this season until Fox's injury made it impossible. If the opposition only play one forward it doesn't mean that we have to sit back and defend with 5. In fact yesterday it was noticeable that Batth in particular but also Souttar were playing more like full backs when we were doing well in the first half an hour. which is as it should be. I think that at half time Rodgers told Leicester to push higher up the pitch which coupled with Shawcross, Brown and Allen tiring meant that we dropped deeper and our lack of full backs showed.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 10, 2021 9:13:47 GMT
Again there is absolutely no reason for him to be playing this formation. He can improvise a left back like he’s persisting improvising a left wing back. Who exactly? With Fox out our only other left back (Tymon) isn't really a left back, hasn't played well there and seems to be injured at the moment anyway. McLean can't play left back but can improvise as a wing back, same for Clucas. Seemingly our academy don't have a competent left back either from all reports. Until we can convince a left back to join us we are stuck with wing backs. In fact despite the carping O'Neill has actually preferred 4 at the back this season until Fox's injury made it impossible. If the opposition only play one forward it doesn't mean that we have to sit back and defend with 5.in fact yesterday it was noticeable that Batth in particular but also Souttar were playing more like full backs when we were doing well in the first half an hour. which is as it should be. I think that at half time Rodgers told Leicester to push higher up the pitch which coupled with Shawcross, Brown and Allen tiring meant that we dropped deeper and our lack of full backs showed. McClean has been appalling at left wing back. Why would playing a back four with, say, Smith at left back (I think even Collins had a couple of decent games there in pre-season) be any worse? What would we lose?
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Post by jaybee on Jan 10, 2021 9:20:45 GMT
McClean was a wank signing full stop. Tried hard etc etc but no quality Erm, didn't he win 'player of the season' about 6 months ago?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 9:24:31 GMT
McClean was a wank signing full stop. Tried hard etc etc but no quality Erm, didn't he win 'player of the season' about 6 months ago? He had Bruno playing behind him, which probably wasn't appreciated by many Stoke fans. But not having him, or adequate replacement, here has made a world of difference.
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