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Post by borat on Dec 12, 2020 14:16:49 GMT
Really pisses me off when people say , " didn't like Hughes" , fucking 9th place for stoke is superb, and look at the results against the big teams! People forget beating man city away and my personal favourite 4 - 3 Everton away.getting our first points away at man utd and Chelsea too, short fucking memories.
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Post by onefatcopper on Dec 12, 2020 14:20:10 GMT
But this is why your argument doesn’t hold water, why would the owners dismiss a manager who had reached the unparalleled success of three ninth places ? They backed the manager in the transfer market to levels we had never witnessed and don’t forget these were the same owners who bankrolled the Stokealona era. The owners do have their faults and the main one being a naive loyalty, but remember that they are fans just like ourselves and they are certainly not in this for the money. Hughes was the reason for our relegation even though he was bleating that he could have saved us. He had lost the dressing room, lost the fans (remember the Stoke station incident for example) and eventually the board, apart from the cost of relegation he left us with his players who were/are on exorbitant salaries over long term contracts with no resale value that we have literally given them away ! Hughes main crime is that he destroyed the spirit not only within the team but within the fans, it’s not until now that you can feel that the spirit is returning, this is due to a manager appointed by the owners and a bunch of youngsters from the academy that has been staunchly backed by the owners. You seem to basically agree with my argument which apparently 'doesn't hold water'. Make your mind up. Why would they sack him? The same reason they sacked a manager who took the club from the bottom half of the Championship into Europe - he'd lost the plot and results were drying up. I can see why they persisted with him after the third season despite a rotten second half of it. But he should have gone at the end of the season after that at the latest. It was clear by that point that he was getting it badly wrong. He definitely helped destroy the spirit. The same one that he'd renewed and revitalised. He deserves the credit for one and censure for the other. It’s called sarcasm that you think that ninth place is the highest position that we should be happy with ? Wigan, FA Cup winners, Leicester City Premier League champions, Burnley qualifying for Europe due to league position, all clubs of a similar size to Stoke apart from Wigan which makes their achievement even greater that can look back with a sense of pride, I’m sure fans of the future will notice that Stoke City came ninth three times when they are looking at teams honours. The spirit between fans and players was nurtured long before Hughes came on the scene, he gradually dismantled it to a point where you could count more empty red seats than fans.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 12, 2020 14:36:24 GMT
How do you know that Flores or Rowett had not agreed to come and then changed their minds after their contracts were improved at Espanyol and Derby? After those 2 turned us down it became an act of desperation. I don’t agree with your assessment of Lambert....when he arrived the damage was already done and I doubt very much that any new manager would have saved us from relegation tbh because we had such shithousery players that were, imo, disrupting the whole club. I believe Lambert would have done a better job than Rowett and certainly Mad Nathan after relegation. Really? How are Ipswich getting on? Nice bloke Lambert but poor manager, that spell at Norwich aside. 3rd in League One.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 14:42:13 GMT
Really? How are Ipswich getting on? Nice bloke Lambert but poor manager, that spell at Norwich aside. 3rd in League One. Having taking them down and finished 11th last season...
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 14:47:03 GMT
You seem to basically agree with my argument which apparently 'doesn't hold water'. Make your mind up. Why would they sack him? The same reason they sacked a manager who took the club from the bottom half of the Championship into Europe - he'd lost the plot and results were drying up. I can see why they persisted with him after the third season despite a rotten second half of it. But he should have gone at the end of the season after that at the latest. It was clear by that point that he was getting it badly wrong. He definitely helped destroy the spirit. The same one that he'd renewed and revitalised. He deserves the credit for one and censure for the other. It’s called sarcasm that you think that ninth place is the highest position that we should be happy with ? Wigan, FA Cup winners, Leicester City Premier League champions, Burnley qualifying for Europe due to league position, all clubs of a similar size to Stoke apart from Wigan which makes their achievement even greater that can look back with a sense of pride, I’m sure fans of the future will notice that Stoke City came ninth three times when they are looking at teams honours. The spirit between fans and players was nurtured long before Hughes came on the scene, he gradually dismantled it to a point where you could count more empty red seats than fans. None of that stuff means ninth isn’t a good achievement or that the football we played during that time wasn’t enjoyable. I didn’t say it was the highest we could expect but that it is a good achievement for a club our size. Which it is. If you’re criticising Hughes for not bettering that when it represents the best finish for 40 years, you have to criticise his predecessor for the same and all the Stoke managers we’ve had since Waddo. Wigan were relegated the season they won the cup and have never recovered? The spirit had actually largely evaporated by the time Hughes took over. In the dressing room and in the stands. Being the lowest scorers in the entire pyramid two years running and failing to win 78% of the games in the previous 18 months will do that to a club. I thought my argument didn’t hold water because there was no cause for the owners to sack Hughes, have you changed tack on that now?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 12, 2020 15:17:17 GMT
Having taking them down and finished 11th last season... That’s not the whole story though is it. He took over with Ipswich adrift at the bottom of the championship with third of the season gone. He has a rebuilding job that’s why he was given a contract extension to 2025 after finishing 11th last season.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 15:21:31 GMT
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 12, 2020 15:37:11 GMT
They should be careful what they wish for......seems weird that he has them playing well and 3rd in the league.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 15:39:16 GMT
They should be careful what they wish for......seems weird that he has them playing well and 3rd in the league. That old chestnut...
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Post by onefatcopper on Dec 12, 2020 15:44:30 GMT
It’s called sarcasm that you think that ninth place is the highest position that we should be happy with ? Wigan, FA Cup winners, Leicester City Premier League champions, Burnley qualifying for Europe due to league position, all clubs of a similar size to Stoke apart from Wigan which makes their achievement even greater that can look back with a sense of pride, I’m sure fans of the future will notice that Stoke City came ninth three times when they are looking at teams honours. The spirit between fans and players was nurtured long before Hughes came on the scene, he gradually dismantled it to a point where you could count more empty red seats than fans. None of that stuff means ninth isn’t a good achievement or that the football we played during that time wasn’t enjoyable. I didn’t say it was the highest we could expect but that it is a good achievement for a club our size. Which it is. If you’re criticising Hughes for not bettering that when it represents the best finish for 40 years, you have to criticise his predecessor for the same and all the Stoke managers we’ve had since Waddo. Wigan were relegated the season they won the cup and have never recovered? The spirit had actually largely evaporated by the time Hughes took over. In the dressing room and in the stands. Being the lowest scorers in the entire pyramid two years running and failing to win 78% of the games in the previous 18 months will do that to a club. I thought my argument didn’t hold water because there was no cause for the owners to sack Hughes, have you changed tack on that now? I would have terminated Hughes way before he eventually got the bullet, you criticised the owners for not ditching him before they did, but in your world of mediocrity he should be revered because we came ninth three times and we should be eternally grateful for a style of football that shone so brightly but eventually fizzled out, a bit like Hughes himself, promised so much but delivered nothing. Criticise the owners by all means, they are the ones who have bankrolled Stoke with their own money, kept the price of season tickets down instead of cashing in, helped with travel costs to away games. Like I have mentioned before, the Coates families biggest fault is their naivety in being so loyal
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 15:51:58 GMT
None of that stuff means ninth isn’t a good achievement or that the football we played during that time wasn’t enjoyable. I didn’t say it was the highest we could expect but that it is a good achievement for a club our size. Which it is. If you’re criticising Hughes for not bettering that when it represents the best finish for 40 years, you have to criticise his predecessor for the same and all the Stoke managers we’ve had since Waddo. Wigan were relegated the season they won the cup and have never recovered? The spirit had actually largely evaporated by the time Hughes took over. In the dressing room and in the stands. Being the lowest scorers in the entire pyramid two years running and failing to win 78% of the games in the previous 18 months will do that to a club. I thought my argument didn’t hold water because there was no cause for the owners to sack Hughes, have you changed tack on that now? I would have terminated Hughes way before he eventually got the bullet, you criticised the owners for not ditching him before they did, but in your world of mediocrity he should be revered because we came ninth three times and we should be eternally grateful for a style of football that shone so brightly but eventually fizzled out, a bit like Hughes himself, promised so much but delivered nothing. Criticise the owners by all means, they are the ones who have bankrolled Stoke with their own money, kept the price of season tickets down instead of cashing in, helped with travel costs to away games. Like I have mentioned before, the Coates families biggest fault is their naivety in being so loyal So again, you agree with me that he should’ve been sacked earlier and the naive loyalty was a failure of the owners. So why the ‘why would they sack him’? Stuff earlier? ‘My world of mediocrity’, complete bollocks. Everything else that came before it is presumably worse than mediocre and should also be disregarded too presumably? I don’t revere Hughes overall, I’m just saying it wasn’t all bad and he did a good job for a while, until he didn’t. The tendency to explain away or find fault with the good stuff because the bad stuff was so ruinous is stupid and disingenuous. The good stuff was good (and it was good however much you try to belittle it by invoking Leicester) and the bad stuff was awful.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 12, 2020 16:06:13 GMT
They should be careful what they wish for......seems weird that he has them playing well and 3rd in the league. That old chestnut... Based on that then would you be happy to see the back of MON as we are only 8th in Championship during a rebuilding process?.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 16:24:13 GMT
Based on that then would you be happy to see the back of MON as we are only 8th in Championship during a rebuilding process?. It’s not remotely the same thing 🙂 Also, I think the Ipswich fans will have a better idea about what they should ‘wish for’ given they watch it every week. Irrespective even of that, Lambert’s various wizard schemes and selections only contrived to push us deeper into the muck.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 12, 2020 16:34:23 GMT
Based on that then would you be happy to see the back of MON as we are only 8th in Championship during a rebuilding process?. It’s not remotely the same thing 🙂 Also, I think the Ipswich fans will have a better idea about what they should ‘wish for’ given they watch it every week. Irrespective even of that, Lambert’s various wizard schemes and selections only contrived to push us deeper into the muck. Can’t agree with that. Lambert was a panic appointment and he came into a rotten apple and did his best to avoid relegation. Not the best manager in the world but one of his "wizard schemes" was to try and install much needed discipline but with the attitude and shithousery of senior players he had at his disposal he didn’t really have any hope. The writing was on the wall well before his appointment. He was no way to blame for our relegation.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 16:47:54 GMT
It’s not remotely the same thing 🙂 Also, I think the Ipswich fans will have a better idea about what they should ‘wish for’ given they watch it every week. Irrespective even of that, Lambert’s various wizard schemes and selections only contrived to push us deeper into the muck. Can’t agree with that. Lambert was a panic appointment and he came into a rotten apple and did his best to avoid relegation. Not the best manager in the world but one of his "wizard schemes" was to try and install much needed discipline but with the attitude and shithousery of senior players he had at his disposal he didn’t really have any hope. The writing was on the wall well before his appointment. He was no way to blame for our relegation. He won two games. One after we were already relegated. That was the sum total of his ‘best’. Here’s some of the stuff that contributed to that. - Bringing Glen Johnson back - Bringing Darren Fletcher back - Bringing Charlie Adam back, who’s sending off against Everton and slothful penalty against Brighton hammered sizeable nails into our coffin. Still, as Homer Simpson says, stuff always looks bad if you remember it.
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Post by dave1 on Dec 12, 2020 16:48:31 GMT
Mark Hughes is an absolute wanker. Dont give a fuck about 3 ninth place finishes, wow. Not a patch on Tony!!!
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 16:53:08 GMT
Mark Hughes is an absolute wanker. Dont give a fuck about 3 ninth place finishes, wow. Not a patch on Tony!!! Why couldn’t Tony finish that high?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 12, 2020 17:09:02 GMT
Can’t agree with that. Lambert was a panic appointment and he came into a rotten apple and did his best to avoid relegation. Not the best manager in the world but one of his "wizard schemes" was to try and install much needed discipline but with the attitude and shithousery of senior players he had at his disposal he didn’t really have any hope. The writing was on the wall well before his appointment. He was no way to blame for our relegation. He won two games. One after we were already relegated. That was the sum total of his ‘best’. Here’s some of the stuff that contributed to that. - Bringing Glen Johnson back - Bringing Darren Fletcher back - Bringing Charlie Adam back, who’s sending off against Everton and slothful penalty against Brighton hammered sizeable nails into our coffin. Still, as Homer Simpson says, stuff always looks bad if you remember it. That’s all in hindsight sight though. What isn’t hind sight is the abysmal signings, attitudes and indiscipline of players including loanees that contributed to our decline. As you say stuff looks bad if you remember it.
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Post by dave1 on Dec 12, 2020 17:13:23 GMT
Mark Hughes is an absolute wanker. Dont give a fuck about 3 ninth place finishes, wow. Not a patch on Tony!!! Why couldn’t Tony finish that high? Completely different circumstances. I've not read the whole thread, but in my opinion, how any stoke fan can say that Mark Hughes achieved more than Sir Tony is beyond me. I love MoN, but I'd have Tone back tomorrow.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 17:24:47 GMT
He won two games. One after we were already relegated. That was the sum total of his ‘best’. Here’s some of the stuff that contributed to that. - Bringing Glen Johnson back - Bringing Darren Fletcher back - Bringing Charlie Adam back, who’s sending off against Everton and slothful penalty against Brighton hammered sizeable nails into our coffin. Still, as Homer Simpson says, stuff always looks bad if you remember it. That’s all in hindsight sight though. What isn’t hind sight is the abysmal signings, attitudes and indiscipline of players including loanees that contributed to our decline. As you say stuff looks bad if you remember it. Well hang on those signings very much turned out poorly but they didn’t necessarily look it, Berahino aside, at the time, so it very much is hindsight too isn’t it? Way more so than thinking bringing the already proven failures of Johnson and Fletcher back, which looked rum shouts at the time.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 17:25:21 GMT
Why couldn’t Tony finish that high? Completely different circumstances. I've not read the whole thread, but in my opinion, how any stoke fan can say that Mark Hughes achieved more than Sir Tony is beyond me. I love MoN, but I'd have Tone back tomorrow. In what way were the circumstances different?
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Post by milky on Dec 12, 2020 17:35:28 GMT
Why couldn’t Tony finish that high? Completely different circumstances. I've not read the whole thread, but in my opinion, how any stoke fan can say that Mark Hughes achieved more than Sir Tony is beyond me. I love MoN, but I'd have Tone back tomorrow. I'm not seeing anyone trying to claim Hughes achieved more than Pulis in the grand scheme of things, more calling out people who constantly rewrite history with regards both ,particularly Hughes by point blank pretending the good bits never happened, just as some pretend the bad stuff under Tone never happened either.
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Post by silsdenstokie on Dec 12, 2020 17:56:47 GMT
Mark Hughes is an absolute wanker. Dont give a fuck about 3 ninth place finishes, wow. Not a patch on Tony!!! Take it you didn't enjoy the 6-1 against Liverpool, or the regular beatings of top 6 opposition, or playing Man city and man Utd off the park in Dec 2015 or the fantastic football we played in 14/15, not to mention seeing the likes of Bojan, Arnie and Shaq in a Stoke shirt?
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Post by elystokie on Dec 12, 2020 18:05:10 GMT
Mark Hughes is an absolute wanker. Dont give a fuck about 3 ninth place finishes, wow. Not a patch on Tony!!! Why couldn’t Tony finish that high? Certainly wasn't lack of funding, as far as I remember only Chelsea and Man City spent more.
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Post by onefatcopper on Dec 12, 2020 18:08:28 GMT
That’s all in hindsight sight though. What isn’t hind sight is the abysmal signings, attitudes and indiscipline of players including loanees that contributed to our decline. As you say stuff looks bad if you remember it. Well hang on those signings very much turned out poorly but they didn’t necessarily look it, Berahino aside, at the time, so it very much is hindsight too isn’t it? Way more so than thinking bringing the already proven failures of Johnson and Fletcher back, which looked rum shouts at the time. I hate to use profanity but just for you I will lower my standards, WIMMER !
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Post by sufolkstokie on Dec 12, 2020 18:21:29 GMT
Best football I've watched was produced under Hughes. A crap end but way more to do with the board not sacking him when they should. Nobody under the age of 50-odd has seen a better Stoke team than Hughes' 13-15. And people hate him. Mad innit 2.5 years of delightful football - the second best Stoke team I have seen - too young to see the nearly won it if we didnt sell the Matthews team It is just sad instead of building on it we managed to break it apart Last time there were a bunch of mitigating circumstances, of which some were/are debateable With Hughes I still cant my head around why such a fall from grace
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 18:31:09 GMT
Well hang on those signings very much turned out poorly but they didn’t necessarily look it, Berahino aside, at the time, so it very much is hindsight too isn’t it? Way more so than thinking bringing the already proven failures of Johnson and Fletcher back, which looked rum shouts at the time. I hate to use profanity but just for you I will lower my standards, WIMMER ! Wimmer was a player we didn’t need and one who turned out to be awful, but again, it’s still hindsight. He actually came here with some pedigree at the time. Frustrating because it was unnecessary and an appalling use of the Arnautovic money at the time, but a lack of ability or quality wasn’t cited as an issue when he actually signed.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 12, 2020 18:44:01 GMT
That’s all in hindsight sight though. What isn’t hind sight is the abysmal signings, attitudes and indiscipline of players including loanees that contributed to our decline. As you say stuff looks bad if you remember it. Well hang on those signings very much turned out poorly but they didn’t necessarily look it, Berahino aside, at the time, so it very much is hindsight too isn’t it? Way more so than thinking bringing the already proven failures of Johnson and Fletcher back, which looked rum shouts at the time. Fair point. But imo the demise of our PL status falls at the feet of Hughes and the transfer team for bringing in some mediocre players for huge (for us) transfer fees and loanees all on big money. Bringing in failures or bad attitude players like Imbula, Wimmer, Berahino, Jesse, Badou and possibly more, who should have formed the backbone of our PL squad was a disaster. As I said earlier, as bad as Lambert's record was, the damage was already done and he was no way to blame for relegation. Of course there are 101 differing opinions on the reason for our demise so best to agree to disagree on this very emotive subject.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 12, 2020 18:47:46 GMT
Well hang on those signings very much turned out poorly but they didn’t necessarily look it, Berahino aside, at the time, so it very much is hindsight too isn’t it? Way more so than thinking bringing the already proven failures of Johnson and Fletcher back, which looked rum shouts at the time. Fair point. But imo the demise of our PL status falls at the feet of Hughes and the transfer team for bringing in some mediocre players for huge (for us) transfer fees and loanees all on big money. Bringing in failures or bad attitude players like Imbula, Wimmer, Berahino, Jesse, Badou and possibly more, who should have formed the backbone of our PL squad was a disaster. As I said earlier, as bad as Lambert's record was, the damage was already done and he was no way to blame for relegation. Of course there are 101 differing opinions on the reason for our demise so best to agree to disagree on this very emotive subject. Think that’s harsh on Badou who played well, but otherwise would agree. Hughes was the overwhelming architect of the relegation. With three months of the season to play though, I don’t think we were dead and buried and a more imaginative appointment could’ve saved us.
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Post by onefatcopper on Dec 12, 2020 19:27:34 GMT
I hate to use profanity but just for you I will lower my standards, WIMMER ! Wimmer was a player we didn’t need and one who turned out to be awful, but again, it’s still hindsight. He actually came here with some pedigree at the time. Frustrating because it was unnecessary and an appalling use of the Arnautovic money at the time, but a lack of ability or quality wasn’t cited as an issue when he actually signed. The more I read of your reasoning the more I get the image of the Nuremberg trials, “yes we did invade Poland, France, Holland etc, and we admit that millions of people were executed, but we were just following orders and we didn’t have the advantage of hindsight “ I’m sure if I used that expletive JESSE you could come up with a rational perspective.
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