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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 12:22:50 GMT
Another weekend in the prem with goals being struck off , on the most technical and wafer thin of arguments .
Gary lineker was saying recently that with VAR , we are losing sight of the fact , that level is onside .
A seemingly good goal is scored and the reflex unthinking action of the defending team is to appeal to VAR for offside . Very often this trick works on the flimsiest of premises ...a bit of someone's knee is 1mm past the defender...the attacker is literally onside but in pointing with his arm where he wants the ball played , his outstretched arm is past the last defender .
This is really splitting hairs , to basically go against the spirit of the law that level is onside . Let's face it , really if all but part of your arm or part of your knee is level . Without VAR , a ref would have seen that has level and given the goal .
If defenders are going to appeal to VAR to the millimetre for every single goal .
A rule better suited to VAR might be that the attackers entire body must be offside , otherwise he is seen as level and onside .Then if you are 1 millimetre offside with your entire body , there is no way you can claim to be level anyway .
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Post by walrus on Nov 30, 2020 12:28:28 GMT
A rule better suited to VAR might be that the attackers entire body must be offside , otherwise he is seen as level and onside .Then if you are 1 millimetre offside with your entire body , there is no way you can claim to be level anyway . I think the current rule worked just fine until VAR was introduced. I’m on principal against changing rules to better suit VAR. They’ve done that with handball and look at the mess it’s made. If VAR is here to stay then it must be adapted to better suit the game rather than changing the game to suit VAR. |
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Post by wembley4372 on Nov 30, 2020 13:09:57 GMT
Or just simplify the whole thing and say its only the heads that counts in making the decision.
Even Gary Lineker can understand that one!
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Post by lordb on Nov 30, 2020 13:10:38 GMT
is football a better or worse experience with VAR
clearly worse
Just get rid of VAR
problem solved
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Post by Orbs on Nov 30, 2020 13:58:13 GMT
The problem isn’t with the drawing of the lines to see who is off/on. The rule talks about ‘when the ball is kicked.’ The lines are only drawn after the video has been stopped. My issue is with the stopping of the ball being kicked - is it absolutely in the right place in order to make the judgement? I’d have the criteria to feet only being on/off so that no other part of the body counts. I’d also have a 30cm ‘grace distance’ in favour of the attacker.
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mr
Youth Player
Posts: 415
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Post by mr on Nov 30, 2020 14:32:39 GMT
My issue is the same as Orbs, we’re only seeing half of the decision. When the ball leaves the foot is as important as the line being drawn showing someone to be on or offside.
I do think they should make the offside rule daylight between the attacker and defender, truly giving the benefit to the attacker.
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Post by Orbs on Nov 30, 2020 14:41:00 GMT
My issue is the same as Orbs, we’re only seeing half of the decision. When the ball leaves the foot is as important as the line being drawn showing someone to be on or offside. I do think they should make the offside rule daylight between the attacker and defender, truly giving the benefit to the attacker. I’d argue that the ball leaving the foot is the most important bit as if that bit is wrong the lines become irrelevant. |
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Post by Pugsley on Nov 30, 2020 14:59:39 GMT
It's shit, but if it pisses Klopp off then I'm all for it.
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Post by reddipotter on Nov 30, 2020 15:12:10 GMT
Here are my thoughts on VAR.
1. We cannot go back to the frequent mistakes before VAR.
2. Every major sport uses a version of it with little controversy- football must learn from them.
3. VAR has exposed some vague rules in football.
4. If you leave control with officials they will check everything.
5. Teams should have one challenge per half (kept if their challenge is upheld).
6. The referee’s original decision stands unless there is a clear error.
7. The line drawn for offside should be much thicker so providing a sort of ‘umpires call’ as in cricket.
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Post by skip on Nov 30, 2020 15:12:57 GMT
There's nothing wrong with it in principle, but like pretty much everything else in modern football, they've made a pig's **** out of it. Compare the accuracy and detail of the VAR stop motion with that of the equivalent in cricket. As has been mentioned above, you/we/the ref can't even see whether they player is offside when the ball is kicked if it is from a player passing but out of frame, and given the amount of cameras at a top flight game, that is farcial. Also mentioned above, something I hadn't thought of, is defenders appealing offside nowadays, knowing full well that a fragile VAR system will more times than not, rule offside for the faintest of margins.
Suggestion: Each team gets to call for VAR intervention twice per match, only once in each half, but beyond that, it's the call of the ref and the assistants. Piece of cake. Do that. And the ref can request VAR once per half per team also. At least its a method of intervention. At the moment, it's VAR for this VAR for that. It's neither accurate nor being deployed effectively.
It's the same as the head injury rule that could change instantly. A player take a proper crack to the head, they go off and that substitute doesn't count towards tactical substitutions. Just change the rule. Done.
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Post by wembley4372 on Nov 30, 2020 16:06:24 GMT
If we change it to be offside when you receive the ball it would greatly help our slower defenders!
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Post by Orbs on Nov 30, 2020 16:19:52 GMT
and don't get me started on handball...
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Post by mattador78 on Nov 30, 2020 16:43:52 GMT
If the part of the body that you actually score the goal with is in front/behind (depends which way he’s facing)of the defender then give it offside. If it wasn’t then there was no advantage and the goal stands.
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Post by PotterLog on Nov 30, 2020 16:49:45 GMT
It just seems like a level of precision that the game and the rule are not designed for, and arguably can't accommodate at all. Football is played on a huge grassy field with wonky white lines painted on it, and the "moment the ball is played" probably lasts several milliseconds from the first contact to when it leaves the boot. Can the technology genuinely ascertain which player's boot or armpit is closer to a line painted on grass 35 yards away at the exact correct moment, with 100% accuracy and down to the millimetre? The variation in the thickness and straightness of that line on the pitch is probably greater than the measurements in some of these offside calls we're seeing.
I'm sure the developers would have a reassuring answer but I'm sceptical. And even if they can show it's valid and reliable, if you can't perceive a rule infraction with the naked eye, even with video replays, is it an infraction at all?
Difficult to know what to do about it though. Unless someone can show that it's not as reliable as claimed, I don't think we can just bin it off now it's here. It is, after all, positive and beneficial much of the time. And all the other proposed solutions are problematic to me.. I think it's probably just one of those things we're going to have to get used to.
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Post by lordb on Nov 30, 2020 17:11:51 GMT
Here are my thoughts on VAR. 1. We cannot go back to the frequent mistakes before VAR. 2. Every major sport uses a version of it with little controversy- football must learn from them. 3. VAR has exposed some vague rules in football. 4. If you leave control with officials they will check everything. 5. Teams should have one challenge per half (kept if their challenge is upheld). 6. The referee’s original decision stands unless there is a clear error. 7. The line drawn for offside should be much thicker so providing a sort of ‘umpires call’ as in cricket. Re point one: why? yes there were costly mistakes but the overall experience was better than it is now, especially for fans at grounds (remember them....) re point 2: lots of controversy in lots of sports honestly it's shite get rid of VAR |
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Post by JoeinOz on Nov 30, 2020 21:52:25 GMT
Fuck var
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Post by silsdenstokie on Nov 30, 2020 22:05:05 GMT
Get rid
Hate it
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Post by kjpt140v on Nov 30, 2020 22:16:18 GMT
Another weekend in the prem with goals being struck off , on the most technical and wafer thin of arguments . Gary lineker was saying recently that with VAR , we are losing sight of the fact , that level is onside . A seemingly good goal is scored and the reflex unthinking action of the defending team is to appeal to VAR for offside . Very often this trick works on the flimsiest of premises ...a bit of someone's knee is 1mm past the defender...the attacker is literally onside but in pointing with his arm where he wants the ball played , his outstretched arm is past the last defender . This is really splitting hairs , to basically go against the spirit of the law that level is onside . Let's face it , really if all but part of your arm or part of your knee is level . Without VAR , a ref would have seen that has level and given the goal . If defenders are going to appeal to VAR to the millimetre for every single goal . A rule better suited to VAR might be that the attackers entire body must be offside , otherwise he is seen as level and onside .Then if you are 1 millimetre offside with your entire body , there is no way you can claim to be level anyway . |
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Post by gibby1409 on Dec 1, 2020 6:11:24 GMT
The real problem isn't VAR, its the interpretation by shite ref's on and off the field? I agree offside needs looking at, and for me, unless there is "daylight" between the player and the last defender when the ball is played, then they're onside? The penno given against the scousers last weekend was, imo nailed on. The player missed the ball and kicked the player? The ref missed it hence VAR did it's job. The fact it annoyed Klopp too is just an additional bonus  |
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Post by Trouserdog on Dec 1, 2020 6:33:04 GMT
I think we should either:
1) Fuck it off completely
2) Change the offside rule so that it's the position of the feet taken into consideration and no other body part.
3) Use a version of Umpire's Call like they do in cricket. Basically, the technology can't be 100% accurate so in cases where the computer images shows that less than 50% of the ball would/might have hit the stumps in the case of an LBW decision, they go with the original decision made by the on-field umpire. The football equivalent would probably be, if you've got to start drawing lines on the pitch, fuck that, just go with what the liner said.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 1, 2020 7:16:45 GMT
Get it gone.
It was obvious it was going to ruin the game, it has.
Just that wait to celebrate. Awful.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 1, 2020 7:43:21 GMT
I think we should either: 1) Fuck it off completely 2) Change the offside rule so that it's the position of the feet taken into consideration and no other body part. 3) Use a version of Umpire's Call like they do in cricket. Basically, the technology can't be 100% accurate so in cases where the computer images shows that less than 50% of the ball would/might have hit the stumps in the case of an LBW decision, they go with the original decision made by the on-field umpire. The football equivalent would probably be, if you've got to start drawing lines on the pitch, fuck that, just go with what the liner said. 1 |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 1, 2020 8:12:32 GMT
Wasn’t aware that teams could appeal decisions and ask for VAR. Anyway get rid of it except for cheating such as diving and deliberately scoring with the hand. Read this and you’ll understand the rediculously fine lines of offside that ruins the game www.premierleague.com/news/1488423 |
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Post by noustie on Dec 1, 2020 8:36:13 GMT
Villa one yesterday seemed to be ruled out because his arm was offside. After looking at it for 3 minutes the reasonable decision would have been to let the goal stand; the correct decision would have been to award a peno because if he was offside it was caused by a foul and; the daftest decision was to watch it for 3 minutes then rule the goal out and give the ball back West Ham.
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Post by reddipotter on Dec 1, 2020 10:06:56 GMT
Here are my thoughts on VAR. 1. We cannot go back to the frequent mistakes before VAR. 2. Every major sport uses a version of it with little controversy- football must learn from them. 3. VAR has exposed some vague rules in football. 4. If you leave control with officials they will check everything. 5. Teams should have one challenge per half (kept if their challenge is upheld). 6. The referee’s original decision stands unless there is a clear error. 7. The line drawn for offside should be much thicker so providing a sort of ‘umpires call’ as in cricket. Re point one: why? yes there were costly mistakes but the overall experience was better than it is now, especially for fans at grounds (remember them....) re point 2: lots of controversy in lots of sports honestly it's shite get rid of VAR I think many people have forgotten the regular fury with incorrect decisions. If unfairness is part of the ‘experience’ then I suppose you’re right. I don’t agree that there is much controversy with video checks in other sports. There’s obviously some, but compared to football it’s minuscule. |
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 1, 2020 10:30:25 GMT
If the part of the body that you actually score the goal with is in front/behind (depends which way he’s facing)of the defender then give it offside. If it wasn’t then there was no advantage and the goal stands. This is absolute common sense. Unbelievable that all these meetings involving refs and officials cannot come up with something like this, something that everyone would feel comfortable with. |
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Post by lordb on Dec 1, 2020 12:31:56 GMT
Re point one: why? yes there were costly mistakes but the overall experience was better than it is now, especially for fans at grounds (remember them....) re point 2: lots of controversy in lots of sports honestly it's shite get rid of VAR I think many people have forgotten the regular fury with incorrect decisions. If unfairness is part of the ‘experience’ then I suppose you’re right. I don’t agree that there is much controversy with video checks in other sports. There’s obviously some, but compared to football it’s minuscule. If in the future technology can be used much much much much quicker then I might be persuaded Goal line technology has been a massive improvement. |
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Post by mattador78 on Dec 1, 2020 12:37:46 GMT
If the part of the body that you actually score the goal with is in front/behind (depends which way he’s facing)of the defender then give it offside. If it wasn’t then there was no advantage and the goal stands. This is absolute common sense. Unbelievable that all these meetings involving refs and officials cannot come up with something like this, something that everyone would feel comfortable with. 😌😘 |
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Post by Mr Jon on Dec 1, 2020 13:27:32 GMT
I think many people have forgotten the regular fury with incorrect decisions. If unfairness is part of the ‘experience’ then I suppose you’re right. I don’t agree that there is much controversy with video checks in other sports. There’s obviously some, but compared to football it’s minuscule. If in the future technology can be used much much much much quicker then I might be persuaded Goal line technology has been a massive improvement. Unless you have that dozy 2@ Andy Davies, the ref in our Watford game, in charge of proceedings  |
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Post by Widget123 on Dec 1, 2020 14:07:57 GMT
VAR is completely unfit for purpose in my opinion in its current setup.
I've long advocated that a fifth official should be the "VAR ref" viewing a simple split screen across the pitch from both sides looking across both of the 18 yard box in a medium shot. They watch the game in real time and act as an additional linesman for offsides where the on pitch liner is unsighted (or is simply "championship level" shit). No replays just a real time call. They can then provide an additional set of eyes covering offsides, fouls and handballs etc. to assist the referee who has the final and ultimate decision. That way there is no pratting around with precision measurements with multiple angle replays and the game goes back to what it used to be with the benefit that any player diving, straying offside before a goal, tugging shirts at a corner etc has a further chance to pulled up for the behaviour and the appropriate sanction being delivered.
It wouldn't be perfect but it'd be light years better than the current snafu which is making the games completely disjointed. It would also be very inexpensive to implement with just four basic locked off cameras and a feed to a single desk for the additional support referee. It could conceivably be rolled out at all championship clubs given that low investment cost. (and given the relative shitness of the refs and liners at this level it would arguably be an improvement across this division).
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