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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 15, 2021 10:49:14 GMT
Your faith in the government's interest in the environment is touching, and well-meant, if a little misplaced. I'm sure they've done the focus groups and know full well that the environment is way down the list of concerns for most right-wingers. In which case, they don't need to worry about it. It'll be the first thing to be thrown under the bus if a conflict occurs with other policy areas such as economic growth, money, trade etc (ie the things that matter most to the people who vote Tory). The direction of travel for environmental protection is already apparent in the first few months post transition period, so while I fully agree with the environmental concerns in your post, these lot are not going to deliver for you, based on previous and current evidence. The petition is against the government, lobbying for action. You constantly limit yourself to criticism of THIS government, it is possible to change government...I suppose you have a point since any left wing opposition has made itself unelectable. Specifically on EU fishing methods, they should be doing something about it themselves, for such a moral organisation....try lobbying them, or changing their direction. Have we not "taken back control" of our own waters, John? Thought that was the whole point of Brexit, sovereignty? In which case, it's entirely down to our government to sort out what goes on in our own waters isn't it? Also, not being a member of the EU anymore, why would they care if any UK individual lobbied them to change direction?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 16, 2021 15:11:25 GMT
The petition is against the government, lobbying for action. You constantly limit yourself to criticism of THIS government, it is possible to change government...I suppose you have a point since any left wing opposition has made itself unelectable. Specifically on EU fishing methods, they should be doing something about it themselves, for such a moral organisation....try lobbying them, or changing their direction. Have we not "taken back control" of our own waters, John? Thought that was the whole point of Brexit, sovereignty? In which case, it's entirely down to our government to sort out what goes on in our own waters isn't it? Also, not being a member of the EU anymore, why would they care if any UK individual lobbied them to change direction? It certainly is up to our government. Pressure needs to be put upon them and future governments, similarly on many issues. To do the right thing environmentally will take courage and be controversial. "Taking back control" doesn't equate to " The UK government will always do the right thing" Far from it....it depends upon who we vote in , and then ensuring that promises are kept.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 17, 2021 7:32:10 GMT
Have we not "taken back control" of our own waters, John? Thought that was the whole point of Brexit, sovereignty? In which case, it's entirely down to our government to sort out what goes on in our own waters isn't it? Also, not being a member of the EU anymore, why would they care if any UK individual lobbied them to change direction? It certainly is up to our government. Pressure needs to be put upon them and future governments, similarly on many issues. To do the right thing environmentally will take courage and be controversial. "Taking back control" doesn't equate to " The UK government will always do the right thing" Far from it....it depends upon who we vote in , and then ensuring that promises are kept. "Ensuring that promises are kept"...That's a very welcome about turn, John, was only a couple of months ago I was saying exactly that in relation to Brexit and you seemed remarkably uninterested in doing so or even accepting that any Brexit-related promises or pledges had ever been made! Perhaps it depends on the individual subject? Either way, it's welcome and absolutely the right thing to do.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 17, 2021 9:24:47 GMT
It certainly is up to our government. Pressure needs to be put upon them and future governments, similarly on many issues. To do the right thing environmentally will take courage and be controversial. "Taking back control" doesn't equate to " The UK government will always do the right thing" Far from it....it depends upon who we vote in , and then ensuring that promises are kept. "Ensuring that promises are kept"...That's a very welcome about turn, John, was only a couple of months ago I was saying exactly that in relation to Brexit and you seemed remarkably uninterested in doing so or even accepting that any Brexit-related promises or pledges had ever been made! Perhaps it depends on the individual subject? Either way, it's welcome and absolutely the right thing to do. I've always believed that promises should be kept. But, We have a different concept of what constitutes a " promise" and the ability ( ie the position) to be able to influence policy. But we've been over this before. I'd prefer to look forward , rather than going back over things in an attempt to prove something, I'm not sure what, so yet again, I'll leave it with you. ( little point in re listing what you consider to be promises for the umpteenth time, but go ahead if it makes you feel better)
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 17, 2021 12:20:07 GMT
"Ensuring that promises are kept"...That's a very welcome about turn, John, was only a couple of months ago I was saying exactly that in relation to Brexit and you seemed remarkably uninterested in doing so or even accepting that any Brexit-related promises or pledges had ever been made! Perhaps it depends on the individual subject? Either way, it's welcome and absolutely the right thing to do. I've always believed that promises should be kept. But, We have a different concept of what constitutes a " promise" and the ability ( ie the position) to be able to influence policy. But we've been over this before. I'd prefer to look forward , rather than going back over things in an attempt to prove something, I'm not sure what, so yet again, I'll leave it with you. ( little point in re listing what you consider to be promises for the umpteenth time, but go ahead if it makes you feel better) Preferring to look forward would surely mean you're not all that bothered about promises being kept, since that would inevitably have to involve looking back at what was promised and then comparing it to what has been delivered? Personally, I think checking on what's been said/delivered is quite a sensible approach, but I have to admit, it must make life a lot easier if you prefer not to and just take politicians at their word all the time! At least you'll never be disappointed
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 17, 2021 12:50:24 GMT
I've always believed that promises should be kept. But, We have a different concept of what constitutes a " promise" and the ability ( ie the position) to be able to influence policy. But we've been over this before. I'd prefer to look forward , rather than going back over things in an attempt to prove something, I'm not sure what, so yet again, I'll leave it with you. ( little point in re listing what you consider to be promises for the umpteenth time, but go ahead if it makes you feel better) Preferring to look forward would surely mean you're not all that bothered about promises being kept, since that would inevitably have to involve looking back at what was promised and then comparing it to what has been delivered? Personally, I think checking on what's been said/delivered is quite a sensible approach, but I have to admit, it must make life a lot easier if you prefer not to and just take politicians at their word all the time! At least you'll never be disappointed As I say we have a different understanding of what constitutes a promise. Keep looking back then. Good day.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 17, 2021 14:05:41 GMT
Preferring to look forward would surely mean you're not all that bothered about promises being kept, since that would inevitably have to involve looking back at what was promised and then comparing it to what has been delivered? Personally, I think checking on what's been said/delivered is quite a sensible approach, but I have to admit, it must make life a lot easier if you prefer not to and just take politicians at their word all the time! At least you'll never be disappointed As I say we have a different understanding of what constitutes a promise. Keep looking back then. Good day. As someone who prefers looking forward, even you must see the irony in routinely posting youtube videos of thirty year old clips of politicians to agree with Great that you're now keen on seeing whether or not the current ones stick to their promises, though, fully agree with that as an approach.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 17, 2021 14:55:26 GMT
As I say we have a different understanding of what constitutes a promise. Keep looking back then. Good day. As someone who prefers looking forward, even you must see the irony in routinely posting youtube videos of thirty year old clips of politicians to agree with Great that you're now keen on seeing whether or not the current ones stick to their promises, though, fully agree with that as an approach. Never mind. It's a shame.
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 20, 2021 11:37:24 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 20, 2021 11:49:10 GMT
You were just as confident that the Tories hadn't pressed for further de-regulation of the financial markets or that membership of the EU had in any way benefited the UK environment, a short while back The pertinent part of that article seems to be this: "Authority chair Susan Steele said it will be contacting industry representatives about the changes that are required. “The accurate weighing of catches remains the responsibility of industry,” she said. “The EU’s decision, however, will involve changes to weighing practices. We will be working to ensure that industry can introduce these efficiently and in a way that assures compliances with EU regulations.” However, if Irish newspapers take the same stance as the majority of right-wing British newspapers have done for the last 30 years and fill their pages with the kind of made-up nonsense the current Prime Minister got sacked for doing, you may well end up being right! Sounds like wishful thinking on your part, Coke!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 24, 2021 15:53:46 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 24, 2021 16:24:09 GMT
Pleased to see that you now care about the fishing industry, unlike last November. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/6980490/thread"0.02% of the economy, 12,000 people employed according to the BBC. Yet this is worth dying in a ditch for apparently! Daft."Your words. Well at least you now care about the fishermen.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 25, 2021 7:22:34 GMT
Pleased to see that you now care about the fishing industry, unlike last November. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/6980490/thread"0.02% of the economy, 12,000 people employed according to the BBC. Yet this is worth dying in a ditch for apparently! Daft."Your words. Well at least you now care about the fishermen. More a case of wondering at the government's tactics of potentially coming away without any deal at all over an industry which is tiny in comparative terms. Clearly it was all just the usual bluff and bluster, political grandstanding. Despite trying to score a political point, make it deal crucial and look like they were acting on the fishing industry's behalf, he's thrown the fishermen under the bus, according to the fishermen. Sounds about right for this government. It's all about telling people what they want to hear rather than doing the right thing, which surprise surprise nearly always creates more problems than it solves. Dominic Cummings being the obvious current example.
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 25, 2021 8:38:31 GMT
Pleased to see that you now care about the fishing industry, unlike last November. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/6980490/thread"0.02% of the economy, 12,000 people employed according to the BBC. Yet this is worth dying in a ditch for apparently! Daft."Your words. Well at least you now care about the fishermen. More a case of wondering at the government's tactics of potentially coming away without any deal at all over an industry which is tiny in comparative terms. Clearly it was all just the usual bluff and bluster, political grandstanding. Despite trying to score a political point, make it deal crucial and look like they were acting on the fishing industry's behalf, he's thrown the fishermen under the bus, according to the fishermen. Sounds about right for this government. It's all about telling people what they want to hear rather than doing the right thing, which surprise surprise nearly always creates more problems than it solves. Dominic Cummings being the obvious current example. As you suggest the negotiations, like most negotiations, were a question of brinkmanship. I imagine the government were primarily concerned with agreeing the EU could not make future laws the UK were required to comply with, or be subject to the ECOJ on anything bar the NI protocol. Once sovereignty was established they sold out on the fishermen as France refused to agree any trade agreement if there was no compromise on fishing. We may be dissatisfied with the present government, but they have delivered on Brexit, which is more than May was achieving. It's hard to imagine Labour delivering on anything these days. The British fishermen are bitterly disappointed and feel let down from Cornwall to Scotland. The Irish fishermen are upset with EU having to give up more than their share: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55683739I think we can take it that the French fishermen are not happy. So it seems the only winners must be the fish! I always thought Brexit was good for the sole. www.iiea.com/brexit/brexit-blog/living-with-brexit-the-road-ahead/brexits-implications-for-fisheries/
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 25, 2021 14:27:26 GMT
More a case of wondering at the government's tactics of potentially coming away without any deal at all over an industry which is tiny in comparative terms. Clearly it was all just the usual bluff and bluster, political grandstanding. Despite trying to score a political point, make it deal crucial and look like they were acting on the fishing industry's behalf, he's thrown the fishermen under the bus, according to the fishermen. Sounds about right for this government. It's all about telling people what they want to hear rather than doing the right thing, which surprise surprise nearly always creates more problems than it solves. Dominic Cummings being the obvious current example. As you suggest the negotiations, like most negotiations, were a question of brinkmanship. I imagine the government were primarily concerned with agreeing the EU could not make future laws the UK were required to comply with, or be subject to the ECOJ on anything bar the NI protocol. Once sovereignty was established they sold out on the fishermen as France refused to agree any trade agreement if there was no compromise on fishing. We may be dissatisfied with the present government, but they have delivered on Brexit, which is more than May was achieving. It's hard to imagine Labour delivering on anything these days. The British fishermen are bitterly disappointed and feel let down from Cornwall to Scotland. The Irish fishermen are upset with EU having to give up more than their share: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55683739I think we can take it that the French fishermen are not happy. So it seems the only winners must be the fish! I always thought Brexit was good for the sole. www.iiea.com/brexit/brexit-blog/living-with-brexit-the-road-ahead/brexits-implications-for-fisheries/I don't think Brexit will be good for anybody, unfortunately. I think it was just a load of posturing as per usual. Telling people what they want to hear again, rather than what is actually going to happen, then relying on the distance of time and a largely complicit Press looking the other way, while the govt moves onto the next cock-up! And it's only those directly involved in the fishing industry who've been thrown under the bus, so it doesn't really matter to anyone else who's inclined to vote Tory. Still, never mind!
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 29, 2021 21:22:48 GMT
More challenges for UK fishing industry? :
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 29, 2021 21:26:11 GMT
The Norwegians have taken back control of their own waters.
What's not to like?
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 29, 2021 22:08:03 GMT
More challenges for UK fishing industry? : www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-agrees-fishing-catch-limits-with-eu-and-norwayThe whole subject of fishing rights and quotas is very complicated. There are technical papers that explain it in detail (areas/quotas/fish species/net sizes/catch sizes/ and so forth), but the media generally chose to ignore the detail and just report the bare major facts that suit their political purpose. There was an agreement earlier this year between Norway, the EU and the UK on fishing in Norwegian sector of the North Sea. Todays failure to agree relates to fishing the the Norwegian sub artic region. It's Norway's waters and they have every right to set the terms. The UK has chosen not to accept those terms. You can agree deals very easily if you give the other side of the table what they want. Hopefully in 2022 there will be an agreement. The UK have agreed to a 5 year phase of fishing rights in UK waters as part of the trade agreement with the EU. After 5 years the UK will assume full sovereignty set the terms for British waters. Then I expect we will have the real set to over fishing. Everyone is claiming to have lost out on fishing, so I assume the fish have come out best.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 30, 2021 6:42:11 GMT
Oh well, let those jobs and livelihoods go.
Perhaps they'll all take up fishing again in 2022, eh?
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Post by wagsastokie on Apr 30, 2021 8:40:51 GMT
Oh well, let those jobs and livelihoods go. Perhaps they'll all take up fishing again in 2022, eh? Or we could simply impose tariffs on Norwegian fish to pay for a fishing furlough scheme The thing I find disturbing about modern fishing is in the articles there talking about one ship that catches 10 percent of all fish eaten in chip shops a year To me the days of mass trawlers should be numbered The whole fishing industry needs a major overhaul and run on a more sustainable basis
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 30, 2021 8:46:54 GMT
Oh well, let those jobs and livelihoods go. Perhaps they'll all take up fishing again in 2022, eh? Or we could simply impose tariffs on Norwegian fish to pay for a fishing furlough scheme The thing I find disturbing about modern fishing is in the articles there talking about one ship that catches 10 percent of all fish eaten in chip shops a year To me the days of mass trawlers should be numbered The whole fishing industry needs a major overhaul and run on a more sustainable basis I agree about the sustainability, although the use of mass trawlers is simply capitalism in action, so good luck with getting a right-wing government to do anything about that. Sustainability may be delivered in our waters by not having much of a fishing industry left.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 30, 2021 13:47:31 GMT
Chippy tea tonight, it is Friday after all.
A nice plate of Norwegian cod, chips and mushy peas, lovely stuff......
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 30, 2021 14:06:04 GMT
Chippy tea tonight, it is Friday after all. A nice plate of Norwegian cod, chips and mushy peas, lovely stuff...... I hope you choke on it! British fish for British palates
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Post by wagsastokie on Apr 30, 2021 15:28:24 GMT
Chippy tea tonight, it is Friday after all. A nice plate of Norwegian cod, chips and mushy peas, lovely stuff...... I shall partake of a nice piece of Icelandic haddock myself
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 30, 2021 15:50:46 GMT
Chippy tea tonight, it is Friday after all. A nice plate of Norwegian cod, chips and mushy peas, lovely stuff...... I shall partake of a nice piece of Icelandic haddock myself Nice......
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Post by partickpotter on May 1, 2021 6:13:16 GMT
As ever, there is more to this Norway fishing non-deal than you’ll get from reading most media reporting... Shetland fishermen have welcomed the rejection of Norway deal. It touches on something previously covered, I think, on the Brexit thread, about how the fishing industry is not homogeneous and how the voices of large companies smother those of the smaller independent fishing interests through their powerful lobbying groups. The story this week seems to be another example of this. Of course our media don’t look too deeply into this type of story preferring to stick with tabloid level simplistic journalism that they know appeals to people who like to seize on uncritical anti-Brexit or anti-Government stories. Of which we have a few on this forum. They might ask themselves why are they supporting the interests of big business over the small guys.
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Post by wagsastokie on May 1, 2021 6:30:35 GMT
As ever, there is more to this Norway fishing non-deal than you’ll get from reading most media reporting... Shetland fishermen have welcomed the rejection of Norway deal. It touches on something previously covered, I think, on the Brexit thread, about how the fishing industry is not homogeneous and how the voices of large companies smother those of the smaller independent fishing interests through their powerful lobbying groups. The story this week seems to be another example of this. Of course our media don’t look too deeply into this type of story preferring to stick with tabloid level simplistic journalism that they know appeals to people who like to seize on uncritical anti-Brexit or anti-Government stories. Of which we have a few on this forum. They might ask themselves why are they supporting the interests of big business over the small guys. Well there’s a surprise the whole fishing industry needs fundamental reform Where funding is made available for smaller and more environmentally friendly trawlers to be commissioned And the end of super trawlers that in this case sweeps up 10% of chip shop cod
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 1, 2021 7:42:01 GMT
As ever, there is more to this Norway fishing non-deal than you’ll get from reading most media reporting... Shetland fishermen have welcomed the rejection of Norway deal. It touches on something previously covered, I think, on the Brexit thread, about how the fishing industry is not homogeneous and how the voices of large companies smother those of the smaller independent fishing interests through their powerful lobbying groups. The story this week seems to be another example of this. Of course our media don’t look too deeply into this type of story preferring to stick with tabloid level simplistic journalism that they know appeals to people who like to seize on uncritical anti-Brexit or anti-Government stories. Of which we have a few on this forum. They might ask themselves why are they supporting the interests of big business over the small guys. Blame the biased media! It was the Chief Exec of Fisheries UK Ltd who was complaining that the government had screwed the fishermen, not some moaning Remainer!
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Post by partickpotter on May 1, 2021 7:47:41 GMT
As ever, there is more to this Norway fishing non-deal than you’ll get from reading most media reporting... Shetland fishermen have welcomed the rejection of Norway deal. It touches on something previously covered, I think, on the Brexit thread, about how the fishing industry is not homogeneous and how the voices of large companies smother those of the smaller independent fishing interests through their powerful lobbying groups. The story this week seems to be another example of this. Of course our media don’t look too deeply into this type of story preferring to stick with tabloid level simplistic journalism that they know appeals to people who like to seize on uncritical anti-Brexit or anti-Government stories. Of which we have a few on this forum. They might ask themselves why are they supporting the interests of big business over the small guys. Blame the biased media! It was the Chief Exec of Fisheries UK Ltd who was complaining that the government had screwed the fishermen, not some moaning Remainer! As usual you miss the point.
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Post by mrcoke on May 1, 2021 8:41:57 GMT
Blame the biased media! It was the Chief Exec of Fisheries UK Ltd who was complaining that the government had screwed the fishermen, not some moaning Remainer! As usual you miss the point. It's OK partick, he doesn't just miss the point, he doesn't look into what the actual numbers mean. For example, the post on the Brexit thread about export " sales of milk and cream down by 96%". What does that actually mean? Have we sold 4 bottles instead of 100?! Of course not, but what are the actual numbers? The UK is historically an importer of milk. One of the effects of the pandemic is that for the first time since records began in March last year, milk etc. exports exceeded imports. Such are the distortions in the market at the moment. Was this positive trade balance due to extra exports? No, it was due to reduced imports. Why? Because the catering industry ground to a virtual halt with the pandemic. The same industry we are told is in danger of not restarting because of lack of foreign workers. The same industry that is at stand still in the EU due to the pandemic and does not need to buy so much milk. It is a sad fact that those that didn't want Brexit are thrashing around for every reason to justify why the UK should have continued to be ruled by Brussels. It's quite pathetic really. As your post stated in the link, the EU is really about big business corporations dominating Europe, in this case controlling fishing at the expense of the SMEs. It is about the rich receiving the vast proportion of the EU budget via the CAP. It is about German car industry trying to slow down the introduction of electric cars by persuading the EU not to legislate on the removal of petrol and diesel cars. The examples are endless. So the deal has not been struck with Norway. What should we have done? Roll over and give Norway whatever they demanded? Norway are sticking up for themselves, good luck to them. The EU countries stuck up for their steel industries, as was pointed out to me, but on the way flouted endless EU regulations, which the UK stupidly obeyed. I fully expect problems leaving a customs union after 40 years membership. What sickens me is those people who have constantly tried to undermine the decision of the British people to leave the EU, and now that we have left, the repeated distortion of statistics, usually without any reference to the basic data, to try and prove a point. www.fwi.co.uk/business/markets-and-trends/dairy-markets/uk-dairy-export-volume-exceeds-import-level-for-first-time#:~:text=Dairy%20product%20exports%20have%20outstripped,at%2095%2C000%20tonnes%20during%202019.
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