|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2020 13:48:55 GMT
Not just yesterday. I think that almost every team has looked tidier and more assured on the ball than we have, this season. And I think it's contributed to the fact that we haven't really played well yet. It's odd. At times we're terrible in possession, and some of the decision making with the ball has been poor all season. But - possession is just a stat. The days are gone, where 60% possession made you favourites to win. Generally I don't think they are. But this is a shit league and we have much better attacking players than a lot of the league so it doesn't matter. It's why I wish MON would stop shitting his pants tbh because we've potentially got a fantastic attacking side. Why did we stop whatever we were doing at the back-end of last season? We went from being a side that hadn't scored 3 in a game since time began, to one that couldn't stop scoring.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 2, 2020 14:04:34 GMT
Generally I don't think they are. But this is a shit league and we have much better attacking players than a lot of the league so it doesn't matter. It's why I wish MON would stop shitting his pants tbh because we've potentially got a fantastic attacking side. Why did we stop whatever we were doing at the back-end of last season? We went from being a side that hadn't scored 3 in a game since time began, to one that couldn't stop scoring. I have no idea. The defence did need sorting but it didn’t need a complete shift in emphasis with it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2020 14:39:54 GMT
I can easily believe less possession yields better results , especially at Stoke .
Moving the ball around ponderously and retaining possession, makes life easy for the opposition and harder for yourselves , and mark Hughes definitely lead us down that dead end ,eventually.
On Saturday's MOTD , Alan shearer highlighted , time and again , how Sheffield United were making it nigh on impossible for themselves to score , by endlessly turning down the opportunity to put the ball in the box and just ' knocking it around ' . It was laughable , how stupid they were. To be fair to shearer , he explained how this can not possibly be Chris wilder's idea , so he had no idea why they were doing it.
Reading Gary Neville's autobiography at the moment . He's talking about standards . He recalls finally getting the ball in a little bit of space , and taking an extra touch to make it easier to put a quality cross. Within seconds , Roy Keane , was racing over to him ...,' what the f#ck are you doing , pressure , speed , just get the f*cking ball in the box asap '
|
|
|
Post by tachyon on Nov 2, 2020 15:31:26 GMT
If you don't mind me asking, where do you get your data? [/quote] I'm the football product manager for a data company. So I take raw data (mainly from Opta) & turn it into stuff that describes what happens on the pitch & what might happen in the future. Amongst other things, I inflicted xG onto the world.
|
|
|
Post by Linx on Nov 2, 2020 16:23:20 GMT
I realise that LP. But we like to catch each other out without enough caffeine in the system😎. Keeps us on our toes! Don't talk to me about caffeine Linx! I've just treated myself to a bean to cup espresso/cappucino machine and my brain is hurting from the effort of understanding all the controls. Pity I don't have degree in being a barrista - it would finally have come in useful! OMG! I’m addicted to mine. I set it at extra strong and 2 x extra long as the only way of getting a mug full. Trouble is, I’m turning into a coffee snob. Costa is now no good, Starbucks just about bearable and, ironically, Macdonalds is passable and good VFM. I’m down to one independent in the plethora of choice in coffee shops in town that I think is okay. Just hate that sour after taste you can get with badly brewed, stale or cheap coffee. The trip to the expensive coffee bean shop in the touristy part of town was once an occasional treat; now it’s an essential stock up of coffee supplies!
|
|
|
Post by ohbottom on Nov 2, 2020 16:30:53 GMT
Does this explain why we kept giving the ball away Satdee?
|
|
|
Post by Miles Offside on Nov 2, 2020 18:26:40 GMT
Too often, we're strung out with big gaps between us, so we play it safe and pass back. Then the ball goes across the back line before being hoofed 40 yards.
And too often we're light up front, with nothing to pass to. Best we've played all season was when we played a proper front three against Brentford.
|
|
|
Post by logdog on Nov 2, 2020 18:37:26 GMT
Is my memory playing tricks on me, or didn’t we normally fair quite well in the possession & chances stats under Nath???🤔
|
|
|
Post by boskampsflaps on Nov 2, 2020 21:57:42 GMT
Generally I don't think they are. But this is a shit league and we have much better attacking players than a lot of the league so it doesn't matter. It's why I wish MON would stop shitting his pants tbh because we've potentially got a fantastic attacking side. Why did we stop whatever we were doing at the back-end of last season? We went from being a side that hadn't scored 3 in a game since time began, to one that couldn't stop scoring. It was a last resort because MON's prefered formations weren't working and he decided this season to give them another go yet again.........
|
|
|
Post by bgreen13 on Nov 2, 2020 22:20:41 GMT
Leicester had 32% possession tonight.
|
|
|
Post by thehartshillbadger on Nov 2, 2020 22:32:51 GMT
Leicester had 32% possession tonight. They also passed the ball to each other (forwards, quickly and one touch) and were moving all over the pitch, superb flowing football
|
|
|
Post by raythesailor on Nov 3, 2020 10:10:51 GMT
I watched the Leeds v Leicester game last night.
Leicester were exceptional, with Vardy in particular, at breaking from defence to attack whilst Leeds had far more possession.
|
|
|
Post by tachyon on Nov 4, 2020 8:08:29 GMT
The premise that Stoke do better under MON when we have lower possession is an illusion caused by score effects.
We have our lowest share of traditional, time based possession when we're *already* winning.
When we're level (and probably trying to score next) our time based possession share increases by 8% & starts further up the pitch.
When we're losing (& definitely trying to score & not outclasses (Leeds)) our possession share increases by another 9% & is initiated even further upfield.
It's leading that causes the lower total match possession figures.
Having a low possession share doesn't generally cause us to take the lead in a game.
It's just the mechanism we use (or are compelled to use) to try to protect any lead and then it confounds the overall match possession numbers.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Nov 4, 2020 8:57:56 GMT
Generally I don't think they are. But this is a shit league and we have much better attacking players than a lot of the league so it doesn't matter. It's why I wish MON would stop shitting his pants tbh because we've potentially got a fantastic attacking side. Why did we stop whatever we were doing at the back-end of last season? We went from being a side that hadn't scored 3 in a game since time began, to one that couldn't stop scoring. Because we wanted to integrate young players like Souttar, Collins and TOB, and new players JOB and Fletcher and we needed to find a system which would do that. I don't think anyone would say they don't want those players in the team. It's called progress. With two young centre halves three at the back makes sense. Can you imagine what an experienced player like Fletcher or Rooney would do to two rookie defenders? Plus the number of matches and injuries mean we need a system which is flexible and not reliant on one player like we were on Clucas especially and even McLean at the end of last season.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 4, 2020 9:40:14 GMT
Why did we stop whatever we were doing at the back-end of last season? We went from being a side that hadn't scored 3 in a game since time began, to one that couldn't stop scoring. Because we wanted to integrate young players like Souttar, Collins and TOB, and new players JOB and Fletcher and we needed to find a system which would do that. I don't think anyone would say they don't want those players in the team. It's called progress. With two young centre halves three at the back makes sense. Can you imagine what an experienced player like Fletcher or Rooney would do to two rookie defenders? Plus the number of matches and injuries mean we need a system which is flexible and not reliant on one player like we were on Clucas especially and even McLean at the end of last season. You can be perfectly defensively solid in a back four though even with rookie defenders, especially where one has now a decent amount of experience of just that one tier down and the other is something of a prodigy. We've been leakier at home with this system than the other one. If we were reliant on anyone in the second half of last season it was Powell, and all the change seems to have done is squeeze him out without adequately replacing the creativity he brings. That the manager is prepared to revisit it for games like Rotherham suggests he recognises this and hopefully we'll see it more often in winnable games while keeping the three at the back for tighter games where we'll try and hit teams on the break.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Nov 4, 2020 10:00:08 GMT
I disagree over Powell. Clucas and McLean were the ones who drove us forwards quickly. We didn't have any more possession at the end of last season. Clucas gets upfield (without the ball) quicker than any of our other midfield players giving opposition defenders someone else to worry about. The fact he has been injured or out of form this season has been a huge miss and I think the reason why we are struggling to score.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 4, 2020 10:14:45 GMT
I disagree over Powell. Clucas and McLean were the ones who drove us forwards quickly. We didn't have any more possession at the end of last season. Clucas gets upfield (without the ball) quicker than any of our other midfield players giving opposition defenders someone else to worry about. The fact he has been injured or out of form this season has been a huge miss and I think the reason why we are struggling to score. Powell was the one actually creating the chances though. Look at the impact he had on game between January and March and in three of the first 4-5 games post-lockdown. We were all but nailed on to go down with Clucas and McClean playing pretty much every week before he found a place for Powell. The change of system hasn't done any of those players - him, Clucas or McClean - any favours though.
|
|
|
Post by Pugsley on Nov 4, 2020 11:02:09 GMT
I disagree over Powell. Clucas and McLean were the ones who drove us forwards quickly. We didn't have any more possession at the end of last season. Clucas gets upfield (without the ball) quicker than any of our other midfield players giving opposition defenders someone else to worry about. The fact he has been injured or out of form this season has been a huge miss and I think the reason why we are struggling to score. Powell was the one actually creating the chances though. Look at the impact he had on game between January and March and in three of the first 4-5 games post-lockdown. We were all but nailed on to go down with Clucas and McClean playing pretty much every week before he found a place for Powell. The change of system hasn't done any of those players - him, Clucas or McClean - any favours though. They haven't yet, 9 games in. He clearly sees this formation as the best way to progress. The football isn't great but results suggest he is correct. Time will tell.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Nov 4, 2020 11:23:48 GMT
I disagree over Powell. Clucas and McLean were the ones who drove us forwards quickly. We didn't have any more possession at the end of last season. Clucas gets upfield (without the ball) quicker than any of our other midfield players giving opposition defenders someone else to worry about. The fact he has been injured or out of form this season has been a huge miss and I think the reason why we are struggling to score. Powell was the one actually creating the chances though. Look at the impact he had on game between January and March and in three of the first 4-5 games post-lockdown. We were all but nailed on to go down with Clucas and McClean playing pretty much every week before he found a place for Powell. The change of system hasn't done any of those players - him, Clucas or McClean - any favours though. So what's the excuse for Saturday when Powell was playing his favoured no. 10 role but didn't create anything that I can remember? I like Powell and thought he had a better game on Saturday but I don't think he's consistent or creative enough to build a team around. As I said before this season especially we need a formation which will get results without relying on particular players. That is what we have done so far.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 4, 2020 11:28:09 GMT
Powell was the one actually creating the chances though. Look at the impact he had on game between January and March and in three of the first 4-5 games post-lockdown. We were all but nailed on to go down with Clucas and McClean playing pretty much every week before he found a place for Powell. The change of system hasn't done any of those players - him, Clucas or McClean - any favours though. So what's the excuse for Saturday when Powell was playing his favoured no. 10 role but didn't create anything that I can remember? I like Powell and thought he had a better game on Saturday but I don't think he's consistent or creative enough to build a team around. As I said before this season especially we need a formation which will get results without relying on particular players. That is what we have done so far. He was astonishingly consistent between January and March though. Are we saying one game overrules that, or every game we use that system and don't blow teams away means it has no value over one in which we're yet to look convincing and never blow teams away?
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 4, 2020 11:29:26 GMT
Powell was the one actually creating the chances though. Look at the impact he had on game between January and March and in three of the first 4-5 games post-lockdown. We were all but nailed on to go down with Clucas and McClean playing pretty much every week before he found a place for Powell. The change of system hasn't done any of those players - him, Clucas or McClean - any favours though. They haven't yet, 9 games in. He clearly sees this formation as the best way to progress. The football isn't great but results suggest he is correct. Time will tell. Happily Saturday, ordinary performance though it was, suggests he's flexible enough to look at more than one option, which is good.
|
|
|
Post by Pugsley on Nov 4, 2020 11:32:19 GMT
They haven't yet, 9 games in. He clearly sees this formation as the best way to progress. The football isn't great but results suggest he is correct. Time will tell. Happily Saturday, ordinary performance though it was, suggests he's flexible enough to look at more than one option, which is good. Yep, without doubt. I think we'll just get better. The league is so unpredictable.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Nov 4, 2020 11:33:33 GMT
Powell was the one actually creating the chances though. Look at the impact he had on game between January and March and in three of the first 4-5 games post-lockdown. We were all but nailed on to go down with Clucas and McClean playing pretty much every week before he found a place for Powell. The change of system hasn't done any of those players - him, Clucas or McClean - any favours though. So what's the excuse for Saturday when Powell was playing his favoured no. 10 role but didn't create anything that I can remember? I like Powell and thought he had a better game on Saturday but I don't think he's consistent or creative enough to build a team around. As I said before this season especially we need a formation which will get results without relying on particular players. That is what we have done so far. I agreed with Mourinho last week when he said all these players who moan when he doesn't play them but don't produce when given the chance aren't good enough. If Powell needs to convince me that we should play a system to enable him to play no. 10 he should produce every time he plays there. Otherwise the system has to suit the whole squad and he has to fit in.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 4, 2020 11:39:46 GMT
So what's the excuse for Saturday when Powell was playing his favoured no. 10 role but didn't create anything that I can remember? I like Powell and thought he had a better game on Saturday but I don't think he's consistent or creative enough to build a team around. As I said before this season especially we need a formation which will get results without relying on particular players. That is what we have done so far. I agreed with Mourinho last week when he said all these players who moan when he doesn't play them but don't produce when given the chance aren't good enough. If Powell needs to convince me that we should play a system to enable him to play no. 10 he should produce every time he plays there. Otherwise the system has to suit the whole squad and he has to fit in. Sorry, name me a player who 'produces' every single time they play even in their favoured position? Messi doesn't do that.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Nov 4, 2020 11:51:31 GMT
I agreed with Mourinho last week when he said all these players who moan when he doesn't play them but don't produce when given the chance aren't good enough. If Powell needs to convince me that we should play a system to enable him to play no. 10 he should produce every time he plays there. Otherwise the system has to suit the whole squad and he has to fit in. Sorry, name me a player who 'produces' every single time they play even in their favoured position? Messi doesn't do that. Well I don't remember Hudson having many poor games. So we built a team around him. I think you'll find that Messi had very few ineffective games early in his career. It' s not the first time Powell has been given the no.10 role this season. How many chances did fans give Fox or Chester before they were condemned. Mourino's point is that if you want to lay claim to a position you produce at the first opportunity you are given otherwise you don't have a case. Messi's position is cemented in that team.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 4, 2020 12:02:14 GMT
Sorry, name me a player who 'produces' every single time they play even in their favoured position? Messi doesn't do that. Well I don't remember Hudson having many poor games. So we built a team around him. I think you'll find that Messi had very few ineffective games early in his career. It' s not the first time Powell has been given the no.10 role this season. How many chances did fans give Fox or Chester before they were condemned. Mourino's point is that if you want to lay claim to a position you produce at the first opportunity you are given otherwise you don't have a case. Messi's position is cemented in that team. Hudson will have had poor games like every single player in the history of the game. Chester has hardly had any good games and he's played what, 10-15 now? How is that the same thing? How many times has Powell has the number 10 position this season? Two? Three? One of them was Villa where he was able to craft for himself and others a few decent opportunities against a Premier League side. Talk me through these games 'early in Messi's career'? That sounds suspiciously plucked from thin air. Powell's form at the back end of last season and his pivotal role in the majority of games we won in that time, are we saying that doesn't count? But it does for everyone else? How does that work? It starts to get a bit desperate when we're relying on the gospel of renowned bastion of honesty and transparency Jose Mourinho.
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Nov 4, 2020 12:55:57 GMT
Last Night, Crewe v Gillingham score 0-1 Possession 74% - 26% Shots 21 - 7 On target 4 - 3 A bit like a TP away win only too many shots
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Nov 4, 2020 13:13:08 GMT
Well I don't remember Hudson having many poor games. So we built a team around him. I think you'll find that Messi had very few ineffective games early in his career. It' s not the first time Powell has been given the no.10 role this season. How many chances did fans give Fox or Chester before they were condemned. Mourino's point is that if you want to lay claim to a position you produce at the first opportunity you are given otherwise you don't have a case. Messi's position is cemented in that team. Hudson will have had poor games like every single player in the history of the game. Chester has hardly had any good games and he's played what, 10-15 now? How is that the same thing? How many times has Powell has the number 10 position this season? Two? Three? One of them was Villa where he was able to craft for himself and others a few decent opportunities against a Premier League side. Talk me through these games 'early in Messi's career'? That sounds suspiciously plucked from thin air. Powell's form at the back end of last season and his pivotal role in the majority of games we won in that time, are we saying that doesn't count? But it does for everyone else? How does that work? It starts to get a bit desperate when we're relying on the gospel of renowned bastion of honesty and transparency Jose Mourinho. Three is more than Morino is prepared to give those Spurs players. My point is that in professional sport you have to take your chance with both hands or expect to have to wait. That's what the best players do. Powell has spent his career not making the most of his ability which is undoubtedly good enough for the Premier. He wouldn't be at Stoke if he produced the sort of form he is capable of consistently. And if he can't produce consistently do you as manager play a formation which suits mainly him or one which suits the majority of the squad and gets you results. I think you'll find most managers at our level pick the consistent players over ones who produce outstanding performances in short spells. If we only won the games in which Powell played well at no.10 then we would not get promotion but he can play well out wide and, I would argue has probably done more often than in the centre too. The system has to suit the squad. By the way I don't remember Messi's early career but I'm sure he must have been consistently good and you're probably right about Hudson but all I remember is good games or brilliant games but he was always influential
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 4, 2020 13:23:11 GMT
Hudson will have had poor games like every single player in the history of the game. Chester has hardly had any good games and he's played what, 10-15 now? How is that the same thing? How many times has Powell has the number 10 position this season? Two? Three? One of them was Villa where he was able to craft for himself and others a few decent opportunities against a Premier League side. Talk me through these games 'early in Messi's career'? That sounds suspiciously plucked from thin air. Powell's form at the back end of last season and his pivotal role in the majority of games we won in that time, are we saying that doesn't count? But it does for everyone else? How does that work? It starts to get a bit desperate when we're relying on the gospel of renowned bastion of honesty and transparency Jose Mourinho. Three is more than Morino is prepared to give those Spurs players. My point is that in professional sport you have to take your chance with both hands or expect to have to wait. That's what the best players do. Powell has spent his career not making the most of his ability which is undoubtedly good enough for the Premier. He wouldn't be at Stoke if he produced the sort of form he is capable of consistently. And if he can't produce consistently do you as manager play a formation which suits mainly him or one which suits the majority of the squad and gets you results. I think you'll find most managers at our level pick the consistent players over ones who produce outstanding performances in short spells. If we only won the games in which Powell played well at no.10 then we would not get promotion but he can play well out wide and, I would argue has probably done more often than in the centre too. The system has to suit the squad. By the way I don't remember Messi's early career but I'm sure he must have been consistently good and you're probably right about Hudson but all I remember is good games or brilliant games but he was always influential Which games would you point to as evidence he plays better on the left, out of interest? Again, you seem to be holding Powell up to different and unrealistic standards than anybody else. There isn’t one player in the squad who has played well every game in either system? Powell has been very good and among our best players in that position in the majority of games he’s played there. When we start regularly hammering teams without him then we can argue it’s not worth finding a prominent place for him.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Nov 4, 2020 15:04:07 GMT
Three is more than Morino is prepared to give those Spurs players. My point is that in professional sport you have to take your chance with both hands or expect to have to wait. That's what the best players do. Powell has spent his career not making the most of his ability which is undoubtedly good enough for the Premier. He wouldn't be at Stoke if he produced the sort of form he is capable of consistently. And if he can't produce consistently do you as manager play a formation which suits mainly him or one which suits the majority of the squad and gets you results. I think you'll find most managers at our level pick the consistent players over ones who produce outstanding performances in short spells. If we only won the games in which Powell played well at no.10 then we would not get promotion but he can play well out wide and, I would argue has probably done more often than in the centre too. The system has to suit the squad. By the way I don't remember Messi's early career but I'm sure he must have been consistently good and you're probably right about Hudson but all I remember is good games or brilliant games but he was always influential Which games would you point to as evidence he plays better on the left, out of interest? Again, you seem to be holding Powell up to different and unrealistic standards than anybody else. There isn’t one player in the squad who has played well every game in either system? Powell has been very good and among our best players in that position in the majority of games he’s played there. When we start regularly hammering teams without him then we can argue it’s not worth finding a prominent place for him. I'm not holding him up to a different standard. I think JOM has been most consistent but you said Powell was more important to the team than Clucas, McLean or any other player. I think if you are most important you should perform consistently not in flashes. There is a difference between having the potential to be best when you play well and being important. I would say that Glen Whelan was probably our most important player but in no way was he the best. His presence though allowed other players to produce their best. I don't think Powell does that as he is sometimes guilty of slowing the game down completely which doesn't work for us. I think the team we select should be the one that gets us the best results and enables most players to produce their best. MON is the one who decides that.
|
|