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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 7:09:13 GMT
The manager addressed this in his interview and pretty much said he brought Chester back in because he thought we'd have more of the ball. 1. We actually didn't have that much more of the ball because Barnsley pressed us high and wide. 2. Chester was the worst of the three centre halves on the ball and every pass went backwards or sideways. The last point is quite pertinent. 3. He actually makes our defence far less organised and was outshone quite considerably by two young kids. Get him gone. Liam Lindsay would make this defence more balanced than he does. How can you say that he makes our defence more disorganised? I think shuffling players round like we did on Saturday to accommodate Batth is the worst thing you can do. In my opinion if one player is out you should just slot his replacement into his place. On Saturday Souttar had to move right and Collins left to accommodate Batth who can only play in the centre. For that reason alone Chester should play. I'd read to think what Barnsley would have done to Batth whose main weakness is panicking when put under pressure like Barnsley were doing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 7:13:07 GMT
The manager addressed this in his interview and pretty much said he brought Chester back in because he thought we'd have more of the ball. 1. We actually didn't have that much more of the ball because Barnsley pressed us high and wide. 2. Chester was the worst of the three centre halves on the ball and every pass went backwards or sideways. The last point is quite pertinent. 3. He actually makes our defence far less organised and was outshone quite considerably by two young kids. Get him gone. Liam Lindsay would make this defence more balanced than he does. How can you say that he makes our defence more disorganised? I think shuffling players round like we did on Saturday to accommodate Batth is the worst thing you can do. In my opinion if one player is out you should just slot his replacement into his place. On Saturday Souttar had to move right and Collins left to accommodate Batth who can only play in the centre. For that reason alone Chester should play. I'd read to think what Barnsley would have done to Batth whose main weakness is panicking when put under pressure like Barnsley were doing. Batth would probably launch the ball longer. Chester did nothing but sell Souttar and Collins down the river with a lot of suicide balls. Chester didn't want the ball last night and every time he had it he got rid pretty sharpish - nearly always backwards and sideways. Souttar and Collins were trying genuine positive forward passes - Campbell's goal the best of the lot, which actually came from a panicked ball back from Chester. How can I say he spreads panic? With my own eyes with what I see. He doesn't look in control and to my own mind, never has in a Stoke shirt from day one. He even admits that he has still to properly adjust to having to change his game because of a debilitating injury. I really don't know why we're bothering with him.
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Post by jeycov on Oct 22, 2020 7:22:02 GMT
Yeah I don't get Chester over Batth. Danny boy always looks louder and more engaged in marshalling the back line, which we seem to be missing. Souttar fucked up for the first goal, he's gonna do that again while he's learning. Still my favourite defender though. His ability to organise the defence is more important alongside the youngsters As for “launching a long pass” , it takes the pressure away from the defence No reason to avoid this option some of the time We have some pace up front to get to a decent long ball and it would make the opposition review their decision to press all of the time We overdid the passing at the back imo
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 7:29:28 GMT
How can you say that he makes our defence more disorganised? I think shuffling players round like we did on Saturday to accommodate Batth is the worst thing you can do. In my opinion if one player is out you should just slot his replacement into his place. On Saturday Souttar had to move right and Collins left to accommodate Batth who can only play in the centre. For that reason alone Chester should play. I'd read to think what Barnsley would have done to Batth whose main weakness is panicking when put under pressure like Barnsley were doing. Batth would probably launch the ball longer. Chester did nothing but sell Souttar and Collins down the river with a lot of suicide balls. Chester didn't want the ball last night and every time he had it he got rid pretty sharpish - nearly always backwards and sideways. Souttar and Collins were trying genuine positive forward passes - Campbell's goal the best of the lot, which actually came from a panicked ball back from Chester. How can I say he spreads panic? With my own eyes with what I see. He doesn't look in control and to my own mind, never has in a Stoke shirt from day one. He even admits that he has still to properly adjust to having to change his game because of a debilitating injury. I really don't know why we're bothering with him. Launching the ball as far as he can is exactly right so that invariably the opposition regain possession and come straight back. On Saturday initially Collins and Souttar were completely unsettled by this approach. I didn't actually notice Chester doing much wrong and I would say that he is always a calm presence. There's nothing wrong in passing the ball sideways to someone you think can pass better. Huth did it all the time. And you haven't addressed my main point that the inclusion of Batth means rearranging all 3 of them
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 7:32:12 GMT
Batth would probably launch the ball longer. Chester did nothing but sell Souttar and Collins down the river with a lot of suicide balls. Chester didn't want the ball last night and every time he had it he got rid pretty sharpish - nearly always backwards and sideways. Souttar and Collins were trying genuine positive forward passes - Campbell's goal the best of the lot, which actually came from a panicked ball back from Chester. How can I say he spreads panic? With my own eyes with what I see. He doesn't look in control and to my own mind, never has in a Stoke shirt from day one. He even admits that he has still to properly adjust to having to change his game because of a debilitating injury. I really don't know why we're bothering with him. Launching the ball as far as he can is exactly right so that invariably the opposition regain possession and come straight back. On Saturday initially Collins and Souttar were completely unsettled by this approach. I didn't actually notice Chester doing much wrong and I would say that he is always a calm presence. There's nothing wrong in passing the ball sideways to someone you think can pass better. Huth did it all the time. And you haven't addressed my main point that the inclusion of Batth means rearranging all 3 of them You didn't address my point of using Lindsay on the left so that Souttar and Collins could stay in their positions?
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Post by robwahlmann on Oct 22, 2020 8:08:02 GMT
I'd have gone for the same 3 as against Luton. I would in away games against the better sides yes. I think when we are playing lesser teams home or away, we need to put out a 4-2-3-1 with our best players, you can't play an attacking side with Baath in there, he surrenders possession every time he plays it forwards Tell him to play it simple then! He is probably our best DEFENDER!
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 8:53:15 GMT
Launching the ball as far as he can is exactly right so that invariably the opposition regain possession and come straight back. On Saturday initially Collins and Souttar were completely unsettled by this approach. I didn't actually notice Chester doing much wrong and I would say that he is always a calm presence. There's nothing wrong in passing the ball sideways to someone you think can pass better. Huth did it all the time. And you haven't addressed my main point that the inclusion of Batth means rearranging all 3 of them You didn't address my point of using Lindsay on the left so that Souttar and Collins could stay in their positions? I haven't seen Lindsay for more than 6 months but I was at Derby where he was a jibbering wreck. I suspect the induction into Stoke shot his confidence completely and he probably needs a move to get going again. He just isn't the calming, organising presence two young players need. Shawcross would be ideal but again couldn't play on the left so I think Chester is the best option. Now your turn.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 22, 2020 8:54:51 GMT
Never fear James Chester is here!
I just can't believe an experienced defender would position himself like that at a throw.
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Post by thehoof on Oct 22, 2020 8:56:17 GMT
I would in away games against the better sides yes. I think when we are playing lesser teams home or away, we need to put out a 4-2-3-1 with our best players, you can't play an attacking side with Baath in there, he surrenders possession every time he plays it forwards Tell him to play it simple then! He is probably our best DEFENDER! Thing is Rob, he isn’t.
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 9:09:28 GMT
Tell him to play it simple then! He is probably our best DEFENDER! Thing is Rob, he isn’t. He's our best defender when crosses and shots are raining into our area. He's great at getting in headers and blocks. The other arts of defending like tackling, clearing in the direction of a team mate rather than as far as you can get it down the pitch, tracking runners and dealing with fast, tricky, mobile forwards have passed him by.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 9:30:48 GMT
You didn't address my point of using Lindsay on the left so that Souttar and Collins could stay in their positions? I haven't seen Lindsay for more than 6 months but I was at Derby where he was a jibbering wreck. I suspect the induction into Stoke shot his confidence completely and he probably needs a move to get going again. He just isn't the calming, organising presence two young players need. Shawcross would be ideal but again couldn't play on the left so I think Chester is the best option. Now your turn. My turn to answer what? We go away from home with Danny Batth in the team and concede few chances and no goals, even with players 'out of position'. We put James Chester back in the side and it's keystone cops. It isn't a calming influence that the kids need. Souttar and Collins have shown they are superior to Chester in every way. They just need a competent defender alongside them. Do you think Chester falls into that category?
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 9:48:49 GMT
I haven't seen Lindsay for more than 6 months but I was at Derby where he was a jibbering wreck. I suspect the induction into Stoke shot his confidence completely and he probably needs a move to get going again. He just isn't the calming, organising presence two young players need. Shawcross would be ideal but again couldn't play on the left so I think Chester is the best option. Now your turn. My turn to answer what? We go away from home with Danny Batth in the team and concede few chances and no goals, even with players 'out of position'. We put James Chester back in the side and it's keystone cops. It isn't a calming influence that the kids need. Souttar and Collins have shown they are superior to Chester in every way. They just need a competent defender alongside them. Do you think Chester falls into that category? Different teams. Barnsley were much better than Luton. Don't forget they drew away at Bristol City. Last night was just the sort of game Batth would have been at his worst under intense pressure. I still don't think Chester did a lot wrong apart from turning his back on the throw for the first but yes I do think he's a competent defender and has been name dropped by MON as one of the players helping the younger ones do well. It was noticeable after the sending off that we never even thought of sending Batth on I suspect because we knew his style of defending would just play into Barnsley's hands and invite pressure when a calm pass could get the ball up field retaining possession which is exactly what happened with the substitutions. They did a job on us, they knew not to send high crosses into the area to negate our height advantage. Credit where it's due. And I will give Batth credit for games like Brentford and Forest last season when he got his head or body on everything but I honestly don't see the difference between home and away at the moment apart from being familiar with the way the pitch plays.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 10:04:03 GMT
My turn to answer what? We go away from home with Danny Batth in the team and concede few chances and no goals, even with players 'out of position'. We put James Chester back in the side and it's keystone cops. It isn't a calming influence that the kids need. Souttar and Collins have shown they are superior to Chester in every way. They just need a competent defender alongside them. Do you think Chester falls into that category? Different teams. Barnsley were much better than Luton. Don't forget they drew away at Bristol City. Last night was just the sort of game Batth would have been at his worst under intense pressure. I still don't think Chester did a lot wrong apart from turning his back on the throw for the first but yes I do think he's a competent defender and has been name dropped by MON as one of the players helping the younger ones do well. It was noticeable after the sending off that we never even thought of sending Batth on I suspect because we knew his style of defending would just play into Barnsley's hands and invite pressure when a calm pass could get the ball up field retaining possession which is exactly what happened with the substitutions. They did a job on us, they knew not to send high crosses into the area to negate our height advantage. Credit where it's due. And I will give Batth credit for games like Brentford and Forest last season when he got his head or body on everything but I honestly don't see the difference between home and away at the moment apart from being familiar with the way the pitch plays. So your giving Batth credit for playing well against those slow, lumbering carthorses like Watkins, M'Buemo, Benrahma and Canos, are happy to admit he played well against Hylton, Lee and Cornick but you don't think he could have done it against Woodrow, Simoes and Frieser? So just to finally confirm, you think James Chester is a viable option on the left of a back three? Barnsley drew at home to Bristol City.
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Post by crapslinger on Oct 22, 2020 11:15:03 GMT
Never fear James Chester is here! I just can't believe an experienced defender would position himself like that at a throw. He simply is not good enough even at this level God knows what MON sees in him.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 22, 2020 11:26:01 GMT
Never fear James Chester is here! I just can't believe an experienced defender would position himself like that at a throw. He simply is not good enough even at this level God knows what MON sees in him. He really isn't. And people will say it's nit picking but I really don't think it is. That whole goal summed the difference between us and them up. Our players expected him to pass the ball to someone else to take the throw in and let them all get set and organised because it's exactly what we would do. Fast thinking from the Barnsley player.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 11:42:12 GMT
He simply is not good enough even at this level God knows what MON sees in him. He really isn't. And people will say it's nit picking but I really don't think it is. That whole goal summed the difference between us and them up. Our players expected him to pass the ball to someone else to take the throw in and let them all get set and organised because it's exactly what we would do. Fast thinking from the Barnsley player. The second goal is worse. He jockeys Woodrow down the flanks then stands about 6 yards off him, allows an easy pass inside and then just jogs away. It's all on Smith absolutely when the cross comes in, but what Chester did for an experienced player is unforgivable right at the start of the move. You put the ball and man in the stand and deal with the throw...
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 22, 2020 12:08:16 GMT
I think Fox will add something when he returns on the left side, his passing into the front man is much better than he gets credit for.
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Post by robwahlmann on Oct 22, 2020 16:02:50 GMT
Tell him to play it simple then! He is probably our best DEFENDER! Thing is Rob, he isn’t. Opinions!
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 16:44:38 GMT
So your giving Batth credit for playing well against those slow, lumbering carthorses like Watkins, M'Buemo, Benrahma and Canos, are happy to admit he played well against Hylton, Lee and Cornick but you don't think he could have done it against Woodrow, Simoes and Frieser? So just to finally confirm, you think James Chester is a viable option on the left of a back three? Barnsley drew at home to Bristol City. If you remember Watkins and Benrahma had shockers in that game and missed several chances not because of good defending. I think he would have struggled against the Barnsley press last night and unlike Forest, Brentford and Luton Barnsley did not send a lot of high crosses into the area. Yes I think that Fox is the best option but then Chester purely because they play on the left. I am not a big fan of shuffling your whole defence around to accommodate your 4th best centre half so you pick the one who is best in the position needing cover. Whereas we lost at home to them with both Batth, Chester and BMI in our defence. Does that make Barnsley a better team than us? I don't buy Barnsley were a poor team. They did their best with limited resources and their best was at least as good as we played. I don't understand why we can't give credit to the opposition when it is due
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Post by blackpoolred on Oct 22, 2020 19:46:34 GMT
He has got potential and he may one day realise it - it may, hopefully, start coming together this year. But we conceded nearly 20 goal attempts against Luton, which is an appalling stat and tonight our defence was split all over the place with simple balls over the top. He has very little competitive game time and is young - time will prove whether he is ready this season - but, for me, he is a worry in that defence at the moment Goal attempts without context proves nothing. How many looked dangerous? If a team shoots on sight of course they will have more attempts but not necessarily look more like scoring. The only way for him to gain experience is to play and as yet he has looked shaky at the start of games but settled into them. He has done nothing horrendous and deserves the chance to play. Don't forget that the coaching staff think enough of him to have played him left, right and fullback this season. On Saturday, his first league start of the season he was asked to play out of position on the left to accommodate the far more experienced Batth. Stats are looked at by the managers and are a good form indicator - ask those who like to do spread betting or anybody that has bought a betting system for predicting football scores - they are all mainly weighted on how many goal-scoring opportunities you are conceding/creating along with how many set pieces created/conceded. Luton had a number of good chances first half and our goalkeeper made 2 great saves in the second half, not to mention 16 corners conceded. If we continue with the type of stats we had against Luton we will lose more than we win and take a few pastings while we are at it. Collins does need game time for sure and perhaps should have gone out on loan last year. There have also been a number of different players playing in various defensive positions this season and no real time for partnerships to form at the moment. That said we can't play him for too long if he is just not ready - although not sure we have too many other options. You are correct though he does seem to grow into games after a slow start - personally not convinced he is ready and does make me cringe. For Barnsley's first goal yesterday the youngsters in our defence helped to create a chance that should never have resulted in a cross in the first place, awful positioning and unnecessary challenge by Souttar and not really sure what Collins was doing to be honest - but it was a half-arsed attempt at blocking the cross and was too far away from his man and not nearly aggressive/decisive enough. I don't think Smith's kick at the post after they had scored was necessarily frustration with him self. Going to be an interesting season to see how the youngsters get on, both lack experience and are naive at times and it will cost us in games, but I guess it boils down to how often it costs us - as to whether the manager will continue to play them and see them as a regular. Souttar clearly looks more the part at the moment though.
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