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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 19, 2020 17:04:02 GMT
I don't agree at all. Not in the slightest You don't think Shawcross has been a great defender??? I don't agree he was average on the ball.
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sean
Academy Starlet
Posts: 236
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Post by sean on Sept 19, 2020 17:11:02 GMT
The problem is that everyone is thinking of Shawcross's ability with the ball at a Premier League level against top level players as that's where the vast majority of his appearances have been. I think we can probably file him under 'steady but unspectacular' at that level. However comparing his ability on the ball with Championship defenders shows him in a much more favourable light, we just haven't had the chance to see him play under a proper manager with an actual system for any stretch for him to be able to show it. Compared to Danny Batth, Shawcross looks like Franco Baresi with the ball at his feet. I am going to try and respond without an awful lot of swearing about one of our own supporters describing Ryan as "steady but unspectacular at premier league level" its just utter nonsense to label one of the best center backs in the country over that period as steady but unspectacular give your head a fucking wobble!!! Even Sir Alex said it was one of his biggest mistakes letting him go and its just my opinion but every cap Cahill got should have been Ryan's as he was a far superior player!
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 19, 2020 20:06:23 GMT
The problem is that everyone is thinking of Shawcross's ability with the ball at a Premier League level against top level players as that's where the vast majority of his appearances have been. I think we can probably file him under 'steady but unspectacular' at that level. However comparing his ability on the ball with Championship defenders shows him in a much more favourable light, we just haven't had the chance to see him play under a proper manager with an actual system for any stretch for him to be able to show it. Compared to Danny Batth, Shawcross looks like Franco Baresi with the ball at his feet. I am going to try and respond without an awful lot of swearing about one of our own supporters describing Ryan as "steady but unspectacular at premier league level" its just utter nonsense to label one of the best center backs in the country over that period as steady but unspectacular give your head a fucking wobble!!! Even Sir Alex said it was one of his biggest mistakes letting him go and its just my opinion but every cap Cahill got should have been Ryan's as he was a far superior player! Shawcross was a highly influential player for us, and was without doubt THE best Stoke player overall during our Prem years, given his consistency over a long period.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 19, 2020 20:10:00 GMT
He’s a club legend.
The results when he’s played in recent years speak volumes and we’ve missed him massively in this time.
If he can get back fit and stay fit he will be a massive addition to the squad again.
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Post by maine on Sept 19, 2020 20:13:36 GMT
In my opinion Ryan was a very good, old fashioned, Denis Smith kind of 'centre half'. He wasn't a ball player. (I hope I'm wrong in using the past tense) Maybe there's a tendency to over-appreciate ball playing defenders? I watched the Swans match earlier and heard the commentator drooling over Joe Roden. Roden's promising, no doubt, but personally I'm not so impressed by someone who puts his foot on the ball in his own penalty area, and turns around twice before 'elegantly stroking a 15 yard pass to a fellow central defender.
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Post by JimmyisGod on Sept 19, 2020 20:35:24 GMT
Sorry, on the wrong thread, thought this was about Kieron Freeman
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 23:12:42 GMT
Can anyone produce the stats on Shawcross's passing accuracy/completion? I don't recall it being too bad at all. OK he didn't have the ability to produce the killer pass that some of the best players have - but (probably because of that) he rarely attempted passes which were beyond him. He was a defender first and foremost who kept his short passes simple but was prepared to mix it up with a few long forward punts - obviously under orders from TP. Maybe this is what is driving this debate. For me ‘good on the ball’ means more than simply, does the basics right and doesn’t get tangled up. I have said that Shawcross often kept in his comfort zone and did what he needed to correctly. Which is honestly what I’d just expect from a player who is deemed to be good quality at the top flight. But ‘good on the ball’ suggests attributes beyond that, the ability to play a quick pass into space and to start attacks from the back. This is not something that is frequently been a part of Shawcross’ game. Whether he can or cannot do it doesn’t matter, because he hasn’t (often) done it in his career. Still was an unbelievable defender for us however.
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Post by mamasgloves on Sept 21, 2020 9:07:20 GMT
The problem is that everyone is thinking of Shawcross's ability with the ball at a Premier League level against top level players as that's where the vast majority of his appearances have been. I think we can probably file him under 'steady but unspectacular' at that level. However comparing his ability on the ball with Championship defenders shows him in a much more favourable light, we just haven't had the chance to see him play under a proper manager with an actual system for any stretch for him to be able to show it. Compared to Danny Batth, Shawcross looks like Franco Baresi with the ball at his feet. Agree to disagree. If anything, he looks worse at this leavel as attackers close you down more than in the Prem where you are generally allowed to take your time with multiple touches. I noticed it straight away after relegation, we suffered right across the back but with him in particular
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Post by citynickscfc on Sept 21, 2020 10:11:35 GMT
The problem is that everyone is thinking of Shawcross's ability with the ball at a Premier League level against top level players as that's where the vast majority of his appearances have been. I think we can probably file him under 'steady but unspectacular' at that level. However comparing his ability on the ball with Championship defenders shows him in a much more favourable light, we just haven't had the chance to see him play under a proper manager with an actual system for any stretch for him to be able to show it. Compared to Danny Batth, Shawcross looks like Franco Baresi with the ball at his feet. Agree to disagree. If anything, he looks worse at this leavel as attackers close you down more than in the Prem where you are generally allowed to take your time with multiple touches. I noticed it straight away after relegation, we suffered right across the back but with him in particular Let's just close this one... Shawx in guys prime and must of his time at stoke -man mountain, Danny Bath most of his time at stoke - wet flannel. Who cares how defenders are with the ball at their feet if the position score 0 goals. I for one always wish to prioritise safe defending and solidity over ball playing skills. Therefore, there is very little for comparison. Sadly Shawx fitness and age means he's almost done. Batth isn't going to make it as a prem defender so I'm not sure his worth, but it is a clear sign of how poor we have become. Back on subject, Kieron who?
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Post by mamasgloves on Sept 21, 2020 17:21:19 GMT
Agree to disagree. If anything, he looks worse at this leavel as attackers close you down more than in the Prem where you are generally allowed to take your time with multiple touches. I noticed it straight away after relegation, we suffered right across the back but with him in particular Let's just close this one... Shawx in guys prime and must of his time at stoke -man mountain, Danny Bath most of his time at stoke - wet flannel. Who cares how defenders are with the ball at their feet if the position score 0 goals. I for one always wish to prioritise safe defending and solidity over ball playing skills. Therefore, there is very little for comparison. Sadly Shawx fitness and age means he's almost done. Batth isn't going to make it as a prem defender so I'm not sure his worth, but it is a clear sign of how poor we have become. Back on subject, Kieron who? Don't get me wrong, I'd have Ryan over Batth every day of the week
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2020 17:35:50 GMT
Can anyone produce the stats on Shawcross's passing accuracy/completion? I don't recall it being too bad at all. OK he didn't have the ability to produce the killer pass that some of the best players have - but (probably because of that) he rarely attempted passes which were beyond him. He was a defender first and foremost who kept his short passes simple but was prepared to mix it up with a few long forward punts - obviously under orders from TP. Maybe this is what is driving this debate. For me ‘good on the ball’ means more than simply, does the basics right and doesn’t get tangled up. I have said that Shawcross often kept in his comfort zone and did what he needed to correctly. Which is honestly what I’d just expect from a player who is deemed to be good quality at the top flight. But ‘good on the ball’ suggests attributes beyond that, the ability to play a quick pass into space and to start attacks from the back. This is not something that is frequently been a part of Shawcross’ game. Whether he can or cannot do it doesn’t matter, because he hasn’t (often) done it in his career. Still was an unbelievable defender for us however. Aye good on the ball has always included being able to control a ball, decent close control, passing etc.
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Post by somersetstokie on Sept 21, 2020 17:39:05 GMT
I would love to see some informed comment on this Kieron Freeman guy. Or any new potential playmakers or options really.
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