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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 14, 2020 8:56:17 GMT
50 years ago we started the day as world champions. And ended it not as world champions. 2-0 up and in complete control then it all went Pete Tong. If he'd kept Charlton on would we have seen the job through? Alf never really grasped the skill of making substitutions. Alf himself said the loss of Banks was the big factor. In our squad everyone was replaceable but Banks.
Either way it must've been totally absolutely devastating.
It marked the end of an era. And the last time we were expected to make a mark in a tournament.
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Post by thfc67 on Jun 14, 2020 14:09:19 GMT
50 years ago we started the day as world champions. And ended it not as world champions. 2-0 up and in complete control then it all went Pete Tong. If he'd kept Charlton on would we have seen the job through? Alf never really grasped the skill of making substitutions. Alf himself said the loss of Banks was the big factor. In our squad everyone was replaceable but Banks. Either way it must've been totally absolutely devastating. It marked the end of an era. And the last time we were expected to make a mark in a tournament. It was a quarter-final in a knock-out competition, anything can happen and often the best team doesn't always win, though I'm not saying England were the best team in this case. Ramsey openly blaming Bonetti and his mistakes for the defeat was disgraceful, with no mention of his own part in the defeat. Overall, the 1970 World Cup was a brilliant tournament. Brazil were by far the stand out team, and worthy winners. As a 14 year old watching them, I was mesmerized by their style of play (just as I was four years later by the 'Total Football' of Johan Cruyff and the Netherlands). England, West Germany and maybe one or two others could possibly have won it, but the best team won the World Cup in 1970.
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Post by tpholloway1 on Jun 14, 2020 15:00:21 GMT
50 years ago we started the day as world champions. And ended it not as world champions. 2-0 up and in complete control then it all went Pete Tong. If he'd kept Charlton on would we have seen the job through? Alf never really grasped the skill of making substitutions. Alf himself said the loss of Banks was the big factor. In our squad everyone was replaceable but Banks. Either way it must've been totally absolutely devastating. It marked the end of an era. And the last time we were expected to make a mark in a tournament. It was a quarter-final in a knock-out competition, anything can happen and often the best team doesn't always win, though I'm not saying England were the best team in this case. Ramsey openly blaming Bonetti and his mistakes for the defeat was disgraceful, with no mention of his own part in the defeat. Overall, the 1970 World Cup was a brilliant tournament. Brazil were by far the stand out team, and worthy winners. As a 14 year old watching them, I was mesmerized by their style of play (just as I was four years later by the 'Total Football' of Johan Cruyff and the Netherlands). England, West Germany and maybe one or two others could possibly have won it, but the best team won the World Cup in 1970. I agree about Ramsey's comments re Bonetti(although he was poor but Bank's knew the defence in front of him which Bonetti did not). The substitution of Charlton was a major error and changed the game. I thought, overall, that the 1970 team was better than the 1966 one but there are fine margins at this level. Brazil were brilliant and a joy to watch after being kicked off the park in 1966.
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jun 14, 2020 17:07:12 GMT
England players of the Time ( Lee, Charlton, Ball) say the substitute controversy is over stated. Colin Bell came on and had a good game, preserving the aged Charlton for the next match is a sensible reason for the substitution. A side like West Germany were too good to roll over, and would have come at England at some point. Apart from his errors, Bonetti had been distracted by trouble with his wife (players wives had accompanied the squad) and was said not to be mentally prepared. Geoff Hurst, Francis Lee and Nobby Stiles have subsequently said that Alex Stepney would have been a better choice, not least due to his big match temperament, as Bonetti was nervous as well as distracted.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 14, 2020 17:39:08 GMT
England players of the Time ( Lee, Charlton, Ball) say the substitute controversy is over stated. Colin Bell came on and had a good game, preserving the aged Charlton for the next match is a sensible reason for the substitution. A side like West Germany were too good to roll over, and would have come at England at some point. Apart from his errors, Bonetti had been distracted by trouble with his wife (players wives had accompanied the squad) and was said not to be mentally prepared. Geoff Hurst, Francis Lee and Nobby Stiles have subsequently said that Alex Stepney would have been a better choice, not least due to his big match temperament, as Bonetti was nervous as well as distracted. The reality is we will never know. I agree that WG would have tried to save the game, and the substitution was tactically sound, but there can be little doubt they must have had a "lift" seeing the player they feared most taken off. Bobby had a massive reputation in WG. On the GK issue: 1. Bonetti was clearly the nations #2 . He was really hot, had the fastest reactions of any GK (but not the positional sense and anticipation Banks had), and went on to successes with Chelsea in cup competitions. 2. Ramsay was right to select Bonetti, correct in that he had a stinker (for whatever reason), but wrong to publically say so. 3. Stepney was good, but I'd trust Ramsay's judgement every time over Hurst, Lee, and Stiles whose management, team selection ability credentials I have yet to see. 4. I have stood at Old Trafford and seen Stepney miss an easier save than anything Bonetti failed to save in that match. I was once stupid enough to remind him of the miss he made against Stoke at a dinner, which put a bit of a dampener on the evening!
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Post by thfc67 on Jun 14, 2020 17:53:58 GMT
England players of the Time ( Lee, Charlton, Ball) say the substitute controversy is over stated. Colin Bell came on and had a good game, preserving the aged Charlton for the next match is a sensible reason for the substitution. A side like West Germany were too good to roll over, and would have come at England at some point. Apart from his errors, Bonetti had been distracted by trouble with his wife (players wives had accompanied the squad) and was said not to be mentally prepared. Geoff Hurst, Francis Lee and Nobby Stiles have subsequently said that Alex Stepney would have been a better choice, not least due to his big match temperament, as Bonetti was nervous as well as distracted. "...preserving the aged Charlton for the next match is a sensible reason for the substitution." Preserving him for a match that never happened? This was a quarter-final of the World Cup, lose you're going home. England were winning 2-1 with 20 minutes to go when he took Charlton off; same score when he took Peters off on the 81st minute. West Germany equalised in the 82nd minute. Unless Charlton and Peters were injured or knackered he shouldn't have taken them off. I could understand resting players if you're 3-0 or 4-0 ahead. Win the game you're playing, worry about the next one afterwards
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jun 14, 2020 18:24:36 GMT
I’ve pretty much cribbed my previous post from Alf Ramsey’s biography. I’m just trying to give the view at the time by the players and management. I’ve named a few but most players on that day blamed Bonetti and felt that the substitutions were overstated. The substitutions were certainly a part of what happened next not disputing that, Norman Hunter arguably should have come on earlier too. The biggest reason by far for the defeat was Bonnetti’s performance.
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Post by thfc67 on Jun 14, 2020 19:00:16 GMT
I’ve pretty much cribbed my previous post from Alf Ramsey’s biography. I’m just trying to give the view at the time by the players and management. I’ve named a few but most players on that day blamed Bonetti and felt that the substitutions were overstated. The substitutions were certainly a part of what happened next not disputing that, Norman Hunter arguably should have come on earlier too. The biggest reason by far for the defeat was Bonnetti’s performance. This is a great article about it all, which I've just come across. www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jun/09/world-cup-stunning-moments-gordon-banks-england-1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 19:46:33 GMT
50 years ago we started the day as world champions. And ended it not as world champions. 2-0 up and in complete control then it all went Pete Tong. If he'd kept Charlton on would we have seen the job through? Alf never really grasped the skill of making substitutions. Alf himself said the loss of Banks was the big factor. In our squad everyone was replaceable but Banks. Either way it must've been totally absolutely devastating. It marked the end of an era. And the last time we were expected to make a mark in a tournament. The Italian side were superb and deserved to be in the final.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 14, 2020 21:18:36 GMT
50 years ago we started the day as world champions. And ended it not as world champions. 2-0 up and in complete control then it all went Pete Tong. If he'd kept Charlton on would we have seen the job through? Alf never really grasped the skill of making substitutions. Alf himself said the loss of Banks was the big factor. In our squad everyone was replaceable but Banks. Either way it must've been totally absolutely devastating. It marked the end of an era. And the last time we were expected to make a mark in a tournament. The Italian side were superb and deserved to be in the final. The semi between Italy and West Germany is a true dramatic roller coaster classic. Was Beckenbauer showboating playing on in a sling?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 0:29:52 GMT
The Italian side were superb and deserved to be in the final. The semi between Italy and West Germany is a true dramatic roller coaster classic. Was Beckenbauer showboating playing on in a sling? One of the best WC games ever. Two great sides but best team won.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 15, 2020 5:00:06 GMT
England players of the Time ( Lee, Charlton, Ball) say the substitute controversy is over stated. Colin Bell came on and had a good game, preserving the aged Charlton for the next match is a sensible reason for the substitution. A side like West Germany were too good to roll over, and would have come at England at some point. Apart from his errors, Bonetti had been distracted by trouble with his wife (players wives had accompanied the squad) and was said not to be mentally prepared. Geoff Hurst, Francis Lee and Nobby Stiles have subsequently said that Alex Stepney would have been a better choice, not least due to his big match temperament, as Bonetti was nervous as well as distracted. The reality is we will never know. I agree that WG would have tried to save the game, and the substitution was tactically sound, but there can be little doubt they must have had a "lift" seeing the player they feared most taken off. Bobby had a massive reputation in WG. On the GK issue: 1. Bonetti was clearly the nations #2 . He was really hot, had the fastest reactions of any GK (but not the positional sense and anticipation Banks had), and went on to successes with Chelsea in cup competitions. 2. Ramsay was right to select Bonetti, correct in that he had a stinker (for whatever reason), but wrong to publically say so. 3. Stepney was good, but I'd trust Ramsay's judgement every time over Hurst, Lee, and Stiles whose management, team selection ability credentials I have yet to see. 4. I have stood at Old Trafford and seen Stepney miss an easier save than anything Bonetti failed to save in that match. I was once stupid enough to remind him of the miss he made against Stoke at a dinner, which put a bit of a dampener on the evening! I don't know if Alf criticised Bonetti publicly. Later that evening he was having a glass of champagne and unusually asked a few of the journalists to join him. (Alf disliked the press intensely) It was then he ruefully lamented the loss of Banks.
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Post by madelinesmithmmmh on Jun 15, 2020 8:05:49 GMT
The Italian side were superb and deserved to be in the final. The semi between Italy and West Germany is a true dramatic roller coaster classic. Was Beckenbauer showboating playing on in a sling? Great game, talk about end-to-end. Great tournament, but the W Germany game still hurts almost as much as the semi finals to come. Saw Bayern Munich at Coventry around that time, Muller, Beckenbaur and Meier were something else.
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Post by ohbottom on Jun 15, 2020 8:39:22 GMT
England players of the Time ( Lee, Charlton, Ball) say the substitute controversy is over stated. Colin Bell came on and had a good game, preserving the aged Charlton for the next match is a sensible reason for the substitution. A side like West Germany were too good to roll over, and would have come at England at some point. Apart from his errors, Bonetti had been distracted by trouble with his wife (players wives had accompanied the squad) and was said not to be mentally prepared. Geoff Hurst, Francis Lee and Nobby Stiles have subsequently said that Alex Stepney would have been a better choice, not least due to his big match temperament, as Bonetti was nervous as well as distracted. The reality is we will never know. I agree that WG would have tried to save the game, and the substitution was tactically sound, but there can be little doubt they must have had a "lift" seeing the player they feared most taken off. Bobby had a massive reputation in WG. I don't think the substitution was tactically sound. Made just after they'd pulled a goal back (giving them a double lift) and Beckenbauer himself has said it freed him up to dictate the game - up to then his main job had been to try to keep Charlton under control. In the context of the game it made no sense. I understand the argument about preserving Charlton's legs for the expected semi, but that's a strategic argument, not tactical. I fucking love pedantry
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 15, 2020 8:53:41 GMT
The reality is we will never know. I agree that WG would have tried to save the game, and the substitution was tactically sound, but there can be little doubt they must have had a "lift" seeing the player they feared most taken off. Bobby had a massive reputation in WG. On the GK issue: 1. Bonetti was clearly the nations #2 . He was really hot, had the fastest reactions of any GK (but not the positional sense and anticipation Banks had), and went on to successes with Chelsea in cup competitions. 2. Ramsay was right to select Bonetti, correct in that he had a stinker (for whatever reason), but wrong to publically say so. 3. Stepney was good, but I'd trust Ramsay's judgement every time over Hurst, Lee, and Stiles whose management, team selection ability credentials I have yet to see. 4. I have stood at Old Trafford and seen Stepney miss an easier save than anything Bonetti failed to save in that match. I was once stupid enough to remind him of the miss he made against Stoke at a dinner, which put a bit of a dampener on the evening! I don't know if Alf criticised Bonetti publicly. Later that evening he was having a glass of champagne and unusually asked a few of the journalists to join him. (Alf disliked the press intensely) It was then he ruefully lamented the loss of Banks. I'm glad to hear that. I'd not heard he had been critical of Bonetti before the post above.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 9:18:24 GMT
The semi between Italy and West Germany is a true dramatic roller coaster classic. Was Beckenbauer showboating playing on in a sling? Great game, talk about end-to-end. Great tournament, but the W Germany game still hurts almost as much as the semi finals to come. Saw Bayern Munich at Coventry around that time, Muller, Beckenbaur and Meier were something else. Gerd Muller's goal took an eternity to go in. One of those games like W Germany and France 82 that you could never get bored of watching. Brazil v Peru in 70 was a cracker as well.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 15, 2020 13:02:33 GMT
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 15, 2020 18:53:04 GMT
50 years ago we started the day as world champions. And ended it not as world champions. 2-0 up and in complete control then it all went Pete Tong. If he'd kept Charlton on would we have seen the job through? Alf never really grasped the skill of making substitutions. Alf himself said the loss of Banks was the big factor. In our squad everyone was replaceable but Banks. Either way it must've been totally absolutely devastating. It marked the end of an era. And the last time we were expected to make a mark in a tournament. This was when the "hurt" from Three Lions actually started. The four years of being champions between '66 and '70 surely can't count as "hurt". So the song should have been 26 years of hurt, although I appreciate that doesn't have quite the same ring. (Also while I'm waxing pedantic, we were still world champions at the end of that day )
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 16, 2020 1:38:29 GMT
50 years ago we started the day as world champions. And ended it not as world champions. 2-0 up and in complete control then it all went Pete Tong. If he'd kept Charlton on would we have seen the job through? Alf never really grasped the skill of making substitutions. Alf himself said the loss of Banks was the big factor. In our squad everyone was replaceable but Banks. Either way it must've been totally absolutely devastating. It marked the end of an era. And the last time we were expected to make a mark in a tournament. This was when the "hurt" from Three Lions actually started. The four years of being champions between '66 and '70 surely can't count as "hurt". So the song should have been 26 years of hurt, although I appreciate that doesn't have quite the same ring. (Also while I'm waxing pedantic, we were still world champions at the end of that day ) No. You are no longer champions from the moment you're knocked out. Liverpool aren't European Champions now.
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 16, 2020 2:54:44 GMT
This was when the "hurt" from Three Lions actually started. The four years of being champions between '66 and '70 surely can't count as "hurt". So the song should have been 26 years of hurt, although I appreciate that doesn't have quite the same ring. (Also while I'm waxing pedantic, we were still world champions at the end of that day ) No. You are no longer champions from the moment you're knocked out. Liverpool aren't European Champions now. Hmm. Is this something official or is this your interpretation of knockout competitions? Not sure I’m on board with that.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 16, 2020 3:06:25 GMT
No. You are no longer champions from the moment you're knocked out. Liverpool aren't European Champions now. Hmm. Is this something official or is this your interpretation of knockout competitions? Not sure I’m on board with that. My interpretation. And I'm unanimous on this 😀
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 16, 2020 3:28:21 GMT
Hmm. Is this something official or is this your interpretation of knockout competitions? Not sure I’m on board with that. My interpretation. And I'm unanimous on this 😀 Makes me miss mumf 🤣
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