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Post by berahinosgoals on Jan 24, 2020 15:11:14 GMT
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Post by TinkerT on Jan 24, 2020 15:15:41 GMT
They have a fantastic set up, all the kids teams don't play in leagues instead traveling the world playing big tournaments. There youth team played Bayern and wiped the floor with them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 15:50:58 GMT
They have a really talented manager, who they stood by even as he did not at first adapt to the rigours of the championship. In return Frank is probably staying with them for a long time, which ensures continuity.
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Post by marylandstoke on Jan 24, 2020 16:11:56 GMT
Should be pointed out moneyball has never actually won anything
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 24, 2020 16:20:19 GMT
Should be pointed out moneyball has never actually won anything Boston won the World Series using practically the same model, they just had a bigger budget but retained the same principles. But even if that wasn't the case, it wouldn't be really surprising when it's a way of levelling the playing field as much as possible for clubs that don't have the cash to go out and buy the best players. Brentford consistently have one of the worst budgets in the league, yet they are consistently improving pretty much every year despite selling their best players. They've turned over 100 million in profit in the past few years alone, there's no way they sustain themselves in this league as they have done without their model, which is based on many statistical metrics, Benham's stats company's (SmartOdds) algorithms and a modern structural set up with 2 directors of football informing the whole process. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 24, 2020 16:23:28 GMT
They have a really talented manager, who they stood by even as he did not at first adapt to the rigours of the championship. In return Frank is probably staying with them for a long time, which ensures continuity. Benham has indicated on multiple occasions they'll only sack a manager when they aren't performing according to their metrics, not the actual league table. It's really bore fruit this year for them. |
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Post by scfc75 on Jan 24, 2020 16:40:37 GMT
Should be pointed out moneyball has never actually won anything Boston won the World Series using practically the same model, they just had a bigger budget but retained the same principles. But even if that wasn't the case, it wouldn't be really surprising when it's a way of levelling the playing field as much as possible for clubs that don't have the cash to go out and buy the best players. Brentford consistently have one of the worst budgets in the league, yet they are consistently improving pretty much every year despite selling their best players. They've turned over 100 million in profit in the past few years alone, there's no way they sustain themselves in this league as they have done without their model, which is based on many statistical metrics, Benham's stats company's (SmartOdds) algorithms and a modern structural set up with 2 directors of football informing the whole process. Biggest spenders in our division by far this season...£28m! |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 24, 2020 16:41:41 GMT
Boston won the World Series using practically the same model, they just had a bigger budget but retained the same principles. But even if that wasn't the case, it wouldn't be really surprising when it's a way of levelling the playing field as much as possible for clubs that don't have the cash to go out and buy the best players. Brentford consistently have one of the worst budgets in the league, yet they are consistently improving pretty much every year despite selling their best players. They've turned over 100 million in profit in the past few years alone, there's no way they sustain themselves in this league as they have done without their model, which is based on many statistical metrics, Benham's stats company's (SmartOdds) algorithms and a modern structural set up with 2 directors of football informing the whole process. Biggest spenders in our division by far this season...£28m! All self generated from aforementioned profit. Taken them a long time to get to this stage. |
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Post by scfc75 on Jan 24, 2020 16:43:12 GMT
Biggest spenders in our division by far this season...£28m! All self generated from aforementioned profit. Yeah they generated something like £35m in sales. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 24, 2020 16:44:49 GMT
All self generated from aforementioned profit. Yeah they generated something like £35m in sales. Which is the crux, lower league gems pinpointed by data. Managed well and developed,sold on, funds reinvested. The ultimate “self sufficiency”. |
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Post by WorkingclassHero on Jan 24, 2020 16:49:41 GMT
Yeah they generated something like £35m in sales. Which is the crux, lower league gems pinpointed by data. Managed well and developed,sold on, funds reinvested. The ultimate “self sufficiency”. Nothing wrong with the process. Long contracts for older expensive premier league cast offs is a sure fire route to success 🤣 |
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jan 24, 2020 16:55:24 GMT
They have a fantastic set up, all the kids teams don't play in leagues instead traveling the world playing big tournaments. There youth team played Bayern and wiped the floor with them. Its not a youth team though its a B team, they dont have an academy they take players from other clubs, only works as long as other clubs run academies |
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Jan 24, 2020 18:07:02 GMT
Brentford's model works because they're a small club who know their limits and have created a sustainable model that works for them. Due to their size and the fact that simply being in The Championship is a relative success, there isn't great pressure to get promoted to the Premier League. Equally, if they get relegated to League One it isn't the biggest disaster either. This allows them to operate this model free from too much pressure. The fans aren't up in arms and screaming lack of ambition when their star players get sold, and if they get a weak batch of youngsters and end up getting relegated it isn't a complete disaster for the club.
This model is difficult to do at Stoke because our size and history dictates that we should be striving for promotion to the Premier League and trying to survive there, and it's what the fans expect. Our fans wouldn't accept our star players constantly being sold and replaced by cheap youngsters, with the result being endless Championship mid table with the odd play off finish and probably the odd relegation to League One when we didn't get the balance right on the pitch. Our fans wouldn't be patient enough with it and it would be seen as unambitious and settling for mediocrity. Especially as the type of clubs poaching our players would be similar size to us too. So in short, while their model is admirable it isn't really realistic for a 'bigger' club like us.
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shooters
Youth Player
POTTER POWER
Posts: 475
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Post by shooters on Jan 24, 2020 18:09:30 GMT
They have a fantastic set up, all the kids teams don't play in leagues instead traveling the world playing big tournaments. There youth team played Bayern and wiped the floor with them. Its not a youth team though its a B team, they dont have an academy they take players from other clubs, only works as long as other clubs run academies Yes bombed their academy. Paraded a squad of new academy under 9's on the pitch and then ripped it all up a few days after. Moneyball book is excellent and film with Brad Pitt not too bad either. |
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 24, 2020 18:29:38 GMT
Won nowt, achieved nowt. Will not go up.
Good luck to them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 18:49:10 GMT
Ten years ago we were in the Premier League and Brentford were in League One (pretty much midtable).
Fast forward ten years. We've spent a total of (approx) 292M compared to their 61M. We've had a net spend of 190M and they've had a net spend of -62M.
Currently they are higher than us in the league, further than us in the cup competition and have a stream of players they can sell for a profit, whereas we have a bloated squad on huge wages we cannot shift for free.
I don't think we are in any position to mock them. They have certainly spent their last ten years much better off the pitch than we have.
We didn't win anything either.
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 24, 2020 18:57:27 GMT
Ten years ago we were in the Premier League and Brentford were in League One (pretty much midtable). Fast forward ten years. We've spent a total of (approx) 292M compared to their 61M. We've had a net spend of 190M and they've had a net spend of -62M. Currently they are higher than us in the league, further than us in the cup competition and have a stream of players they can sell for a profit, whereas we have a bloated squad on huge wages we cannot shift for free. I don't think we are in any position to mock them. They have certainly spent their last ten years much better off the pitch than we have. We didn't win anything either. We achieved and won promotion, got to a cup final, played in Europe, got to another semi, and established ourselves in the top flight with 3 top 10 finishes. They have done nothing that is comparable to Stoke City. True, we have ballsed it up big time. Good luck to them, hope they do well. |
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Post by markby on Jan 24, 2020 19:01:08 GMT
Should be pointed out moneyball has never actually won anything "Moneyball" (or a variation thereof) has transformed BFC from a club which like eg Leyton Orient, was in danger of crashing out of the FL altogether, into one which has consistently held its own in the top half of the Championship, with a decent crack at going up. (Though unlike Orient, Bees might never have got back into the FL again).
Of course the other option would have been for the owner to throw his millions on players (transfer and wages) and hope that FFP didn't catch up with them, like eg QPR and Birmingham (and a few others in the pipeline?). And just look where those two teams are now, compared with The Bees.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 19:05:31 GMT
Ten years ago we were in the Premier League and Brentford were in League One (pretty much midtable). Fast forward ten years. We've spent a total of (approx) 292M compared to their 61M. We've had a net spend of 190M and they've had a net spend of -62M. Currently they are higher than us in the league, further than us in the cup competition and have a stream of players they can sell for a profit, whereas we have a bloated squad on huge wages we cannot shift for free. I don't think we are in any position to mock them. They have certainly spent their last ten years much better off the pitch than we have. We didn't win anything either. We achieved and won promotion, got to a cup final, played in Europe, got to another semi, and established ourselves in the top flight with 3 top 10 finishes. They have done nothing that is comparable to Stoke City. True, we have ballsed it up big time. Good luck to them, hope they do well. People mock them for not winning anything but if our club had used our money better, along the lines of what they are doing at a lower level, we'd have repeated what Leicester have done or come very close to it (Another club who are excellent at recruitment). 'Ballsed it up' is being kind. Arrogant and completely out of touch with modern football is more in line with reality. To go from League One to the top end of the Championship doing what they do is nothing short of remarkable. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 24, 2020 19:08:25 GMT
Won nowt, achieved nowt. Will not go up. Good luck to them. It’s all relative, this is the longest they’ve been in the second tier since the 40s, they pay for themselves, are moving into a new ground and have every chance of going up despite being one of the smallest clubs in the division with a low budget other than what they make with their player sales. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 24, 2020 19:13:47 GMT
Brentford's model works because they're a small club who know their limits and have created a sustainable model that works for them. Due to their size and the fact that simply being in The Championship is a relative success, there isn't great pressure to get promoted to the Premier League. Equally, if they get relegated to League One it isn't the biggest disaster either. This allows them to operate this model free from too much pressure. The fans aren't up in arms and screaming lack of ambition when their star players get sold, and if they get a weak batch of youngsters and end up getting relegated it isn't a complete disaster for the club. This model is difficult to do at Stoke because our size and history dictates that we should be striving for promotion to the Premier League and trying to survive there, and it's what the fans expect. Our fans wouldn't accept our star players constantly being sold and replaced by cheap youngsters, with the result being endless Championship mid table with the odd play off finish and probably the odd relegation to League One when we didn't get the balance right on the pitch. Our fans wouldn't be patient enough with it and it would be seen as unambitious and settling for mediocrity. Especially as the type of clubs poaching our players would be similar size to us too. So in short, while their model is admirable it isn't really realistic for a 'bigger' club like us. Norwich adopted a similar model and got promoted after selling the likes of Maddison etc. Even if they come down this year, it means they’ll be well placed to come back up. You’re right about patience though, I don’t think Stoke fans currently have the patience at all for any project. It doesn’t necessarily have to be youngsters either, Pukki isn’t young but was identified using data driven models that showed he was achieving way more than he should be doing for a player at Brondby. |
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Post by markby on Jan 24, 2020 19:18:59 GMT
They have a fantastic set up, all the kids teams don't play in leagues instead traveling the world playing big tournaments. There youth team played Bayern and wiped the floor with them. Its not a youth team though its a B team, they dont have an academy they take players from other clubs, only works as long as other clubs run academiesNo chance of all the other clubs scrapping their Academies, they've invested far too much in them, with some, like eg Chelsea, actually turning a tidy profit for them.
Meanwhile, Benham invested millions in one of only two 4-Star(?) academies outside the top two tiers when the FA and Leagues started requiring al clubs to have an Academy of their own. Then the PL got the Rules changed by bunging a few quid to the EFL clubs, in return for scrapping fair-market transfer fees for academy graduates. Bees lost Joe Hardy to Liverpool and Ian Poveda to M.City for a few thousand each, when they should realistically have commanded six figure sums, if not a million or more.
At which point, Benham said "fuck that for a game of soldiers", cut his losses and figured out what he might do instead. He then realised that there could still be value to be had in Academy graduates who were released by their clubs (late developers etc), who they could sign for nothing, while offering them a second chance to get back in the pro-game.
This "B" team has been a huge success in bringing players through to the 1st team (some of whom have been sold for a massive profit), the club has invested heavily in top-class coaches and facilities for them, whilst matching them against some of the cream of Britian and Europe's U-23's and Academies etc. This week, for instance, they've just come back from a trip to Portugal, where they trained in the sun and played games against 3 local teams:
I believe another EFL club has taken the hint (can't remember which) and is following the same route. Meanwhile, the other 90 clubs are probably still dismissing it as some sort of silliness - "You mark my words, son, you'll never get anywhere with your fancy new ideas..."
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 24, 2020 19:22:48 GMT
Its not a youth team though its a B team, they dont have an academy they take players from other clubs, only works as long as other clubs run academiesNo chance of all the other clubs scrapping their Academies, they've invested far too much in them, with some, like eg Chelsea, actually turning a tidy profit for them.
Meanwhile, Benham invested millions in one of only two 4-Star(?) academies outside the top two tiers when the FA and Leagues started requiring al clubs to have an Academy of their own. Then the PL got the Rules changed by bunging a few quid to the EFL clubs, in return for scrapping fair-market transfer fees for academy graduates. Bees lost Joe Hardy to Liverpool and Ian Poveda to M.City for a few thousand each, when they should realistically have commanded six figure sums, if not a million or more.
At which point, Benham said "fuck that for a game of soldiers", cut his losses and figured out what he might do instead. He then realised that there could still be value to be had in Academy graduates who were released by their clubs (late developers etc), who they could sign for nothing, while offering them a second chance to get back in the pro-game.
This "B" team has been a huge success in bringing players through to the 1st team (some of whom have been sold for a massive profit), the club has invested heavily in top-class coaches and facilities for them, whilst matching them against some of the cream of Britian and Europe's U-23's and Academies etc. This week, for instance, they've just come back from a trip to Portugal, where they trained in the sun and played games against 3 local teams:
I believe another EFL club has taken the hint (can't remember which) and is following the same route. Meanwhile, the other 90 clubs are probably still dismissing it as some sort of silly idea - "You mark my words, son, you'll never get anywhere with your fancy new ideas..."
Huddersfield I believe. |
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Post by markby on Jan 24, 2020 19:25:55 GMT
Brentford's model works because they're a small club who know their limits and have created a sustainable model that works for them. Due to their size and the fact that simply being in The Championship is a relative success, there isn't great pressure to get promoted to the Premier League. Equally, if they get relegated to League One it isn't the biggest disaster either. Trust me, Benham is not in the least bit interested in just staying in the Championship. And while no-one is saying they'll inevitably get promoted etc, anyone at the club who settled for mid-Championship security would be shown the door before you could say "P45"!
As for relegation, I won't say it could never happen, but as far as Benham is concerned, he might not use use the term "disaster" in the event of relegation, more like "monumental fcuk-up which must never be repeated". I mean, he hasn't plunged over £70m into a new stadium in order to watch Lge One football, that's for sure.
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Post by markby on Jan 24, 2020 19:29:58 GMT
I believe another EFL club has taken the hint (can't remember which) and is following the same route. Meanwhile, the other 90 clubs are probably still dismissing it as some sort of silliness - "You mark my words, son, you'll never get anywhere with your fancy new ideas..."
Huddersfield I believe. That's the one. |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 24, 2020 19:57:26 GMT
It has similarities to how the Glenn Hoddle Academy worked, though I don't think that had much success apart from Sam Clucas?
I'd imagine most professional football clubs are playing Moneyball to an extent by now, but Brentford are (seemingly) doing it better than anyone else. Many said the fees Liverpool paid for Alisson and van Dijk were ridiculous. Fee-wise not in the spirit of Moneyball, but they identified the right players for the positions they needed most and chased van Dijk until they got him.
There will always be someone punching well above their weight in player recruitment. It was Crewe for a while. Stoke have done it well at times too, most recently under Pulis with the likes of Etherington, Shawcross, Whelan, Beattie and Fuller, then Bojan and Arnautovic under Hughes. Less of the data-driven thing, but finding players who have a good chance of performing better. It went pear-shaped when we started spending loads on relative failures from other clubs.
It's funny how Benham dismisses Moneyball as not having the human-aspect, at least based on the film which is unlikely to be wholly realistic, but I thought player recruitment there had the human aspect too. Perhaps they hammed that up just for the film.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 24, 2020 20:01:01 GMT
It has similarities to how the Glenn Hoddle Academy worked, though I don't think that had much success apart from Sam Clucas? I'd imagine most professional football clubs are playing Moneyball to an extent by now, but Brentford are (seemingly) doing it better than anyone else. Many said the fees Liverpool paid for Alisson and van Dijk were ridiculous. Fee-wise not in the spirit of Moneyball, but they identified the right players for the positions they needed most and chased van Dijk until they got him. There will always be someone punching well above their weight in player recruitment. It was Crewe for a while. Stoke have done it well at times too, most recently under Pulis with the likes of Etherington, Shawcross, Whelan, Beattie and Fuller, then Bojan and Arnautovic under Hughes. It went pear-shaped when we started spending loads on relative failures from other clubs. It's funny how Benham dismisses Moneyball as not having the human-aspect, at least based on the film which is unlikely to be wholly realistic, but I thought player recruitment there had the human aspect too. Perhaps they hammed that up just for the film. The Glenn Hoddle Academy was more about getting players back into football after being released professionally at a young age, Brentford are much more about looking at who is performing well in minor leagues and in no danger of being released, with a plan to the. sell on for profit. |
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 24, 2020 20:04:34 GMT
We achieved and won promotion, got to a cup final, played in Europe, got to another semi, and established ourselves in the top flight with 3 top 10 finishes. They have done nothing that is comparable to Stoke City. True, we have ballsed it up big time. Good luck to them, hope they do well. People mock them for not winning anything but if our club had used our money better, along the lines of what they are doing at a lower level, we'd have repeated what Leicester have done or come very close to it (Another club who are excellent at recruitment). 'Ballsed it up' is being kind. Arrogant and completely out of touch with modern football is more in line with reality. To go from League One to the top end of the Championship doing what they do is nothing short of remarkable. I'm not mocking I'm stating fact. Like I said, I hope they do well and get promotion. |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 24, 2020 20:05:18 GMT
It has similarities to how the Glenn Hoddle Academy worked, though I don't think that had much success apart from Sam Clucas? I'd imagine most professional football clubs are playing Moneyball to an extent by now, but Brentford are (seemingly) doing it better than anyone else. Many said the fees Liverpool paid for Alisson and van Dijk were ridiculous. Fee-wise not in the spirit of Moneyball, but they identified the right players for the positions they needed most and chased van Dijk until they got him. There will always be someone punching well above their weight in player recruitment. It was Crewe for a while. Stoke have done it well at times too, most recently under Pulis with the likes of Etherington, Shawcross, Whelan, Beattie and Fuller, then Bojan and Arnautovic under Hughes. It went pear-shaped when we started spending loads on relative failures from other clubs. It's funny how Benham dismisses Moneyball as not having the human-aspect, at least based on the film which is unlikely to be wholly realistic, but I thought player recruitment there had the human aspect too. Perhaps they hammed that up just for the film. The Glenn Hoddle Academy was more about getting players back into football after being released professionally at a young age, Brentford are much more about looking at who is performing well in minor leagues and in no danger of being released, with a plan to the. sell on for profit. I said it has similarities. They've signed young players released from other clubs, including Arsenal. |
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Post by markby on Jan 24, 2020 20:06:12 GMT
Many said the fees Liverpool paid for Alisson and van Dijk were ridiculous. Fee-wise not in the spirit of Moneyball, but they identified the right players for the positions they needed most and chased van Dijk until they got him. What people often overlook is that they got £140m for Coutinho, having bought him for £8.5m five years earlier.
I imagine the fees for both Alisson and VVD were inflated since Roma and Saints knew LFC had the Coutinho money, but still, it all represented terrific business for them.
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