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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 5, 2020 13:19:06 GMT
It isn't an opinion. It is a fact that assassinating a senior official of a sovereign power is seen in geopolitical terms as a very big deal indeed. If you don't agree with that fact then that's your right. But it is a fact Some geopolitical people might see it differently. If you do , that is your right. What even is a geopolitical person?! You're not even making any sense now. Which is of course your right
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2020 13:23:35 GMT
Some geopolitical people might see it differently. If you do , that is your right. What even is a geopolitical person?! You're not even making any sense now. Which is of course your right A geopolitical person is a person who is important geopolitically and thinks geopolitically in geopolitical terms, whatever that is.
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Post by Billy the kid on Jan 5, 2020 13:25:15 GMT
I tend to agree with vokes here, regardless of who did what, assassinating a senior figure of another nation regardless of what that said person has done is indeed an act of war. Whether you agree with that act or not is immaterial.
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Post by bathstoke on Jan 5, 2020 13:34:48 GMT
What even is a geopolitical person?! You're not even making any sense now. Which is of course your right A geopolitical person is a person who is important geopolitically and thinks geopolitically in geopolitical terms, whatever that is. There are continents & shores that breach human understanding...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2020 13:36:15 GMT
A geopolitical person is a person who is important geopolitically and thinks geopolitically in geopolitical terms, whatever that is. There are continents & shores that breach human understanding... That's exactly what I'm saying Bath, so most threads degenerate...in this case. . Pro Trump/ anti Trump, pro USA/ anti USA
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2020 13:39:08 GMT
I tend to agree with vokes here, regardless of who did what, assassinating a senior figure of another nation regardless of what that said person has done is indeed an act of war. Whether you agree with that act or not is immaterial. I agree Billy, but the interpretations and consequences of said act can't be predicted, there are many views ....and are interpreted on this board as pro or anti USA/ Trump..... when, in geopolitical terms and knowledge, most of us are out of our depth. .in my opinion.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 5, 2020 13:53:36 GMT
I tend to agree with vokes here, regardless of who did what, assassinating a senior figure of another nation regardless of what that said person has done is indeed an act of war. Whether you agree with that act or not is immaterial. Thanks for putting this far more succinctly than I managed to!
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Post by Timmypotter on Jan 5, 2020 13:55:57 GMT
Watch this first. It might save 2h 46m of your life by not listening to the biggest conspiracy theory from a thinking man's David Icke. Again, straight from the alt right playbook. No attempt whatsoever to refute the points made in Hypernormalisation. Just a wank parody. Attack the style, avoid the substance. Not very bright. The problem with hypernormalisation, and most Curtis stuff, is that there isn't much substance. I remember watching it when it was released. For the most part it is incoherent and doesn't actually seem to be about anything. The stuff about Gaddaffi is interesting but conveniently glosses over Libyan human rights abuses when he was in power. The parody is bang on. Like a lot of Curtis stuff it is style over content. It's been a while since I saw it, but I remember 'Why we Fight' (2005 documentary) having a lot more convincing stuff to say about the military industrial complex. And not a jarring piece of archive content to be seen.
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Post by Timmypotter on Jan 5, 2020 13:58:45 GMT
I tend to agree with vokes here, regardless of who did what, assassinating a senior figure of another nation regardless of what that said person has done is indeed an act of war. Whether you agree with that act or not is immaterial. I agree with Gary Kasparov He basically says that we've been allowing Iran to get away with too much and Trump has been hoping to ignore the situation.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 5, 2020 13:59:21 GMT
Soleamani is accused of leading an organisation that forces regime change against the will of those nations by foul means. So no different to the CIA or MI6 then? Western hypocrisy at its finest Selling weapons to whichever terrorist organisation we support at the time, organisation covert operations to bring down “the enemy” is ok, as long as they’re on the “right side” And when you raise it you’re accused of treachery by the usual bloody thirsty warmongers that still haven’t had the good grace to admit that Western policy over the last 30 years has been an unmitigated disaster...... As small government, pacifist and isolationist as I see myself, the "hypocrisy" thing, although true, I see as irrelevant. The West should always look after itself and its allies first and foremost. It doesn't matter if we've been involved in forcing regime changes, that doesn't mean we should allow that to happen if it is to our detriment. We don't need to be fair, we don't need to offer a level playing field. It's not a sporting gentlemen's game of cricket. I'd definitely stay the fuck out of it cause it's not worth British lives but no way should we tolerate nations engaging in the same sly and devious misadventures as we've been up to unless it benefits us. Darwinism. We didn't get to the top of the global food chain by playing fair.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 5, 2020 13:59:56 GMT
I tend to agree with vokes here, regardless of who did what, assassinating a senior figure of another nation regardless of what that said person has done is indeed an act of war. Whether you agree with that act or not is immaterial. I agree Billy, but the interpretations and consequences of said act can't be predicted, there are many views ....and are interpreted on this board as pro or anti USA/ Trump..... when, in geopolitical terms and knowledge, most of us are out of our depth. .in my opinion. This isn't about pro or anti Trump/USA/Iran. This is a simple case of evaluating one act. And whichever way you look at that act, it is an escalation and an act of war according to all existing protocols and conventions. No one is saying we can predict the consequences of the act, any more than we can read the future. If I go for a slash after banging the missus, it may all go down the bog without issue But there's an increased risk that a load of it will jet down my shin and fill me fucking slippers
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 14:02:50 GMT
Soleamani is accused of leading an organisation that forces regime change against the will of those nations by foul means. So no different to the CIA or MI6 then? Western hypocrisy at its finest Selling weapons to whichever terrorist organisation we support at the time, organisation covert operations to bring down “the enemy” is ok, as long as they’re on the “right side” And when you raise it you’re accused of treachery by the usual bloody thirsty warmongers that still haven’t had the good grace to admit that Western policy over the last 30 years has been an unmitigated disaster...... As small government, pacifist and isolationist as I see myself, the "hypocrisy" thing, although true, I see as irrelevant. The West should always look after itself and its allies first and foremost. It doesn't matter if we've been involved in forcing regime changes, that doesn't mean we should allow that to happen if it is to our detriment. We don't need to be fair, we don't need to offer a level playing field. It's not a sporting gentlemen's game of cricket. I'd definitely stay the fuck out of it cause it's not worth British lives but no way should we tolerate nations engaging in the same sly and devious misadventures as we've been up to unless it benefits us. Darwinism. We didn't get to the top of the global food chain by playing fair. That’s exactly the kind of attitude that has seen innocent people blown up on the tube as they go about their daily commute......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2020 14:04:10 GMT
I agree Billy, but the interpretations and consequences of said act can't be predicted, there are many views ....and are interpreted on this board as pro or anti USA/ Trump..... when, in geopolitical terms and knowledge, most of us are out of our depth. .in my opinion. This isn't about pro or anti Trump/USA/Iran. This is a simple case of evaluating one act. And whichever way you look at that act, it is an escalation and an act of war according to all existing protocols and conventions. No one is saying we can predict the consequences of the act, any more than we can read the future. If I go for a slash after banging the missus, it may all go down the bog without issue But there's an increased risk that a load of it will jet down my shin and fill me fucking slippers It depends how it is interpreted and how it pand out.. .but in here it is seen as anti Trump
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 5, 2020 14:05:48 GMT
As small government, pacifist and isolationist as I see myself, the "hypocrisy" thing, although true, I see as irrelevant. The West should always look after itself and its allies first and foremost. It doesn't matter if we've been involved in forcing regime changes, that doesn't mean we should allow that to happen if it is to our detriment. We don't need to be fair, we don't need to offer a level playing field. It's not a sporting gentlemen's game of cricket. I'd definitely stay the fuck out of it cause it's not worth British lives but no way should we tolerate nations engaging in the same sly and devious misadventures as we've been up to unless it benefits us. Darwinism. We didn't get to the top of the global food chain by playing fair. That’s exactly the kind of attitude that has seen innocent people blown up on the tube as they go about their daily commute...... And that's unfortunate, but voluntarily relinquishing power, influence, status and control wouldn't improve our lot.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 14:08:22 GMT
I tend to agree with vokes here, regardless of who did what, assassinating a senior figure of another nation regardless of what that said person has done is indeed an act of war. Whether you agree with that act or not is immaterial. I agree with Gary Kasparov He basically says that we've been allowing Iran to get away with too much and Trump has been hoping to ignore the situation. Before Trump pulled out of the Iran Nuclear deal against the wishes of the remaining G8 nations relations arguably were as good as they’d been in years between Iran and the rest of the worlds superpowers.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 14:09:51 GMT
That’s exactly the kind of attitude that has seen innocent people blown up on the tube as they go about their daily commute...... And that's unfortunate, but voluntarily relinquishing power, influence, status and control wouldn't improve our lot. We have very little status or power. We ride along in the coat tails of the USA and take whatever comes their/our way.....
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 5, 2020 14:20:03 GMT
And that's unfortunate, but voluntarily relinquishing power, influence, status and control wouldn't improve our lot. We have very little status or power. We ride along in the coat tails of the USA and take whatever comes their/our way..... Permanent seat on UN Security Council, Nuclear Power, Commonwealth, G7 (G8, G20 etc) country. We're not a global superpower in the same league as the USA, Russia or China but we're a very, very powerful and influential country compared to the vast majority of the world. It might not mean a lot when it comes to standing up to the USA, admittedly, but it doesn't reduce my original point that there's no reason why we need to make the world a fair place for hostile countries (even if they're hostile because of our imperialist actions of yesteryear in the first place).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 14:23:17 GMT
We have very little status or power. We ride along in the coat tails of the USA and take whatever comes their/our way..... Permanent seat on UN Security Council, Nuclear Power, Commonwealth, G7 (G8, G20 etc) country. We're not a global superpower in the same league as the USA, Russia or China but we're a very, very powerful and influential country compared to the vast majority of the world. It might not mean a lot when it comes to standing up to the USA, admittedly, but it doesn't reduce my original point that there's no reason why we need to make the world a fair place for hostile countries (even if they're hostile because of our imperialist actions of yesteryear in the first place). We’ve made the world a much more dangerous place in the last 30 years both abroad and for our own citizens (or it at least we’ve helped America to do so). You don’t have to be Einstein to work that one out....
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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 5, 2020 14:25:25 GMT
This isn't about pro or anti Trump/USA/Iran. This is a simple case of evaluating one act. And whichever way you look at that act, it is an escalation and an act of war according to all existing protocols and conventions. No one is saying we can predict the consequences of the act, any more than we can read the future. If I go for a slash after banging the missus, it may all go down the bog without issue But there's an increased risk that a load of it will jet down my shin and fill me fucking slippers It depends how it is interpreted and how it pand out.. .but in here it is seen as anti Trump It doesn't depend on anything. Facts are facts are facts. How events pan out after the fact is of course unpredictable. If stating a fact is viewed on here as taking a side then frankly that says more about "here" than anything else
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 5, 2020 14:30:50 GMT
Permanent seat on UN Security Council, Nuclear Power, Commonwealth, G7 (G8, G20 etc) country. We're not a global superpower in the same league as the USA, Russia or China but we're a very, very powerful and influential country compared to the vast majority of the world. It might not mean a lot when it comes to standing up to the USA, admittedly, but it doesn't reduce my original point that there's no reason why we need to make the world a fair place for hostile countries (even if they're hostile because of our imperialist actions of yesteryear in the first place). We’ve made the world a much more dangerous place in the last 30 years both abroad and for our own citizens (or it at least we’ve helped America to do so). You don’t have to be Einstein to work that one out.... The whole of British history since the Reformation has been one continuing story of imperialism, colonialism, projections of power and battes for supremacy of British influence. If you're going to go back 30 years you may as well go back further. All of this has made the world a more dangerous place (some conflicts have been more morally justified than others from an objective standpoint), but all of it has also given us a seat at the top table. I don't agree with unnecessary wars of aggression in this day and age. I have to categorically state that. However, a lot of hostile nations are hostile towards us because of our history, which is nothing to do with us alive today, and we can't change. I would not attack them. But it's a terrible argument to say we should put up with hostile actions towards us and our allies because we've done the same to them in the past.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2020 14:30:58 GMT
It depends how it is interpreted and how it pans out.. .but in here it is seen as anti Trump It doesn't depend on anything. Facts are facts are facts. How events pan out after the fact is of course unpredictable. If stating a fact is viewed on here as taking a side then frankly that says more about "here" than anything else It does say something about here, most of us have agendas. Unfortunately your " facts" can still be interpreted differently and that matters. Some people consider Iran a rogue state. Some people, even within Iran see Suleiman as an evil illigitimate ( internal) terrorist, some people see the American act as a rightful response to his/ Iran's activities in other countries. I don't think that we really know enough, but some people think that they know enough to condemn Trump/ America.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 5, 2020 14:36:43 GMT
It doesn't depend on anything. Facts are facts are facts. How events pan out after the fact is of course unpredictable. If stating a fact is viewed on here as taking a side then frankly that says more about "here" than anything else It does say something about here, most of us have agendas. Unfortunately your " facts" cab still be interpreted differently and that matters. Some people consider Iran a rogue state. Some people, even within Iran see Suleiman as an evil illigitimate ( internal) terrorist, some people see the American act as a rightful response to his/ Iran's activities in other countries. I don't think that we really know enough, but some people think that they know enough to condemn Trump/ America. I agree with all that mate. What you've outlined there is indeed all opinion and subjective However none of it changes the facts that a- this guy was assassinated by America and b- doing so was an escalation in an ongoing spat. Neither of those things are opinions. That's really all I'm saying.
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Post by bathstoke on Jan 5, 2020 14:38:50 GMT
And that's unfortunate, but voluntarily relinquishing power, influence, status and control wouldn't improve our lot. We have very little status or power. We ride along in the coat tails of the USA and take whatever comes their/our way..... Oh Yeah. Winning WWll gave us an outmoded notion of ourselves. We no longer have the advances, power structure or resources to complete with the big guns. We’ve had a few great parties that the World looked on in envy(60’s & 80’s)but they were just vanity projects of the few. The dumbing down of culture along with w@#&y influencers are taking us away from what is important...
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jan 5, 2020 14:47:01 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on Jan 5, 2020 14:57:09 GMT
We have very little status or power. We ride along in the coat tails of the USA and take whatever comes their/our way..... Permanent seat on UN Security Council, Nuclear Power, Commonwealth, G7 (G8, G20 etc) country. We're not a global superpower in the same league as the USA, Russia or China but we're a very, very powerful and influential country compared to the vast majority of the world. It might not mean a lot when it comes to standing up to the USA, admittedly, but it doesn't reduce my original point that there's no reason why we need to make the world a fair place for hostile countries (even if they're hostile because of our imperialist actions of yesteryear in the first place). Russia really aren't in China and The USA's league. We are on a par with them in most respects and as an economy we far outstrip them. Our GDP is more than twice Russia's and they're massively reliant on energy exports which could cause them problems in the long term. Russia's main asset is its immense size, which from a geopolitical viewpoint, is largely irrelevant. There is the US, then China then everyone else.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 5, 2020 14:59:15 GMT
Interesting development, not altogether surprising. In the short term at least, a withdrawal may increase Iranian influence in Iraq. Maybe Trump wanted a pretext to get out of Iraq, a place he's always said he wanted nothing to do with. Maybe he wants that Iranian influence to grow short term so he has a pretext to go to war with Iran later. Maybe he has no particular plan. Will he even withdraw troops as requested?! Hold on to your hats folks...
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Post by heworksardtho on Jan 5, 2020 15:07:34 GMT
Don't most threads now degenerate into pro-Trump/anti-Trump, pro BREXIT/ anti BREXIT, Pro Boris/ anti Boris, proLabour/ anti Labour.... irrespective of any facts/ developments etc...and " what is happening" can be interpreted any way you want? The bullet kills more than the bomb
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Post by ColonelMustard on Jan 5, 2020 15:45:44 GMT
It's just another episode of multiple things can be true at the same time. He was a bloody butcher and had it coming. Iran is an aggressive actor in the Middle East. US Imperialism is our greatest danger to us all. Things are now more dangerous, not less. There are dozens of mutually uncomfortable truths in this that can have us arguing til the cows get bombed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 16:03:54 GMT
I’m sure Marr will be as on the ball with his Iran commentary as he was over Iraq.....
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Post by bathstoke on Jan 5, 2020 16:24:15 GMT
It's just another episode of multiple things can be true at the same time. He was a bloody butcher and had it coming. Iran is an aggressive actor in the Middle East. US Imperialism is our greatest danger to us all. Things are now more dangerous, not less. There are dozens of mutually uncomfortable truths in this that can have us arguing til the cows get bombed. “Round them cows up, Put’em all in a field & bomb the b@$¥@&ds!”
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