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Post by musik on Dec 16, 2019 0:54:07 GMT
Things change, when it comes to politics too.
Working class people here in Sweden used to vote for The Social Democratic Working Party, or nowadays in short, simply S or The SocialDemocrats. They used to get around 40-45% of all votes for decades. Also when they contributed to the Race Biological Institute way back, weirdly enough.
They have always had a steady support among the masses.
Much of what they did formed Sweden to what it was, until the last mass immigration a few years back.
Somehow they miraculously survived last time as well and formed a government mix with support from MP (Green Party), V (Left Wing), C (Center Party) and L (Liberals).
However, recent polls suggest no way they will survive the next Election sep 11th in 2022. If political pressure isn't forcing an even (much) earlier Election ... Figures and predictions say it will be hard for them to reach 20% next time.
Why is that? And why have the members of our largest Union - LO - Landsorganisation (The Land Organization) went from voting on S (SocialDemocrats), to SD (SwedenDemocrats)? The men for a few years and now recently also the female members of the working class.
Have they all of a sudden gone wealthy? Why abandon the large working class party?
The answer is simple. Nothing has changed. They're still classified as working class.
But class or private economy and finances has absolutely nothing to do with how you vote these days! And it has absolutely nothing to do with ideology, charismatic political leaders and hopes or dreams of a better world, also called visions.
It has all got to do with mass immigration. Every poll in this country lists the TWO most important political questions according to people to be: "Law and Order" and "Immigration".
And for some weird reason, only political parties to the right on the scale have high priority about these things.
Therefore I'm very very surprised some still wonder why some people vote right, when they should be voting wrong ... sorry, left.
This thread is about Sweden.
But I think it could be applied to most countries turning a bit to the right in recent years.
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 16, 2019 9:12:15 GMT
We have had immigration issues for decades Musik. Leicester City Council once posted an advert in the Ugandan press, urging the Indian diaspora not to come to England after Idi Amin expelled them & now Leicester is about to become the first City in England with a white minority.
Brexit is a red herring in a perfect storm.
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 17, 2019 17:53:03 GMT
Rubbish.
It’s all about class.
People who vote right have no class, people who vote left have bags of it.
QED.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 17:56:40 GMT
It's really weird. It seems like every country on earth has the same 'issues' in its electorate, with mass immigration and law and order.
There is something driving this, and seeing as though immigrants contribute much more to the economy than they take out, some sort of frustration is being misdirected, in my opinion.
But what from? We had no such huge issue with it 5-10 years ago? and immigration hasn't change much in that time at all.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 17, 2019 19:41:10 GMT
Things change, when it comes to politics too. Working class people here in Sweden used to vote for The Social Democratic Working Party, or nowadays in short, simply S or The SocialDemocrats. They used to get around 40-45% of all votes for decades. Also when they contributed to the Race Biological Institute way back, weirdly enough. They have always had a steady support among the masses. Much of what they did formed Sweden to what it was, until the last mass immigration a few years back. Somehow they miraculously survived last time as well and formed a government mix with support from MP (Green Party), V (Left Wing), C (Center Party) and L (Liberals). However, recent polls suggest no way they will survive the next Election sep 11th in 2022. If political pressure isn't forcing an even (much) earlier Election ... Figures and predictions say it will be hard for them to reach 20% next time. Why is that? And why have the members of our largest Union - LO - Landsorganisation (The Land Organization) went from voting on S (SocialDemocrats), to SD (SwedenDemocrats)? The men for a few years and now recently also the female members of the working class. Have they all of a sudden gone wealthy? Why abandon the large working class party? The answer is simple. Nothing has changed. They're still classified as working class. But class or private economy and finances has absolutely nothing to do with how you vote these days! And it has absolutely nothing to do with ideology, charismatic political leaders and hopes or dreams of a better world, also called visions. It has all got to do with mass immigration. Every poll in this country lists the TWO most important political questions according to people to be: "Law and Order" and "Immigration". And for some weird reason, only political parties to the right on the scale have high priority about these things. Therefore I'm very very surprised some still wonder why some people vote right, when they should be voting wrong ... sorry, left. This thread is about Sweden. But I think it could be applied to most countries turning a bit to the right in recent years. I think the left's refusal to address working class concerns about immigration has led to both Brexit and the calamitous performance of Labour in our General Election. Until they do, they deserve to be in opposition. |
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Post by salopstick on Dec 17, 2019 20:19:02 GMT
It's really weird. It seems like every country on earth has the same 'issues' in its electorate, with mass immigration and law and order. There is something driving this, and seeing as though immigrants contribute much more to the economy than they take out, some sort of frustration is being misdirected, in my opinion. But what from? We had no such huge issue with it 5-10 years ago? and immigration hasn't change much in that time at all. The last 5-10 years we are seeing the results of certainly EU freedom of movement In my town there is a polish community. It doesn’t bother me There are a polish kids in my kids school. It doesn’t bother me They have learnt about Polish culture. It doesn’t bother me This probably doesn’t bother most people What does bother me and other people is governments didn’t build the infrastructure to support this. Bigger schools, more doctors etc etc. And like inflation a large work force helps to slow wages down. In addition in a lot of cases a lot of the wages were being sent hoMe so don’t contributing to the local economy. And this is before we talk about Eastern European gangs and crime adding to the crime we already have. Add other things to the mix and you get a majority brexit vote People think the motivation of Brexit was racism. It’s not a racism/xenophobic thing it’s seeing this massive increase of people in certain areas and seeing it impact on your life. In the big cities already prosperous it does not affect them as much. It’s easy to post immigration stats that may not back it up but the stats dont change the narrative or perception. |
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Post by musik on Dec 17, 2019 20:23:36 GMT
But what from? We had no such huge issue with it 5-10 years ago? and immigration hasn't change(d) much in that time at all. Ok, I see. It's completely different up here. I'm curious, what political problems do people in Britain consider to be most important then? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 20:25:49 GMT
It's really weird. It seems like every country on earth has the same 'issues' in its electorate, with mass immigration and law and order. There is something driving this, and seeing as though immigrants contribute much more to the economy than they take out, some sort of frustration is being misdirected, in my opinion. But what from? We had no such huge issue with it 5-10 years ago? and immigration hasn't change much in that time at all. The last 5-10 years we are seeing the results of certainly EU freedom of movement In my town there is a polish community. It doesn’t bother me There are a polish kids in my kids school. It doesn’t bother me They have learnt about Polish culture. It doesn’t bother me This probably doesn’t bother most people What does bother me and other people is governments didn’t build the infrastructure to support this. Bigger schools, more doctors etc etc. And like inflation a large work force helps to slow wages down. In addition in a lot of cases a lot of the wages were being sent hoMe so don’t contributing to the local economy. And this is before we talk about Eastern European gangs and crime adding to the crime we already have. Add other things to the mix and you get a majority brexit vote People think the motivation of Brexit was racism. It’s not a racism/xenophobic thing it’s seeing this massive increase of people in certain areas and seeing it impact on your life. In the big cities already prosperous it does not affect them as much. It’s easy to post immigration stats that may not back it up but the stats dont change the narrative or perception. That I do agree with, it's not racism to see these issues. I think the main difference we has this election was a huge portion of people seeing it as a problem of immigration rather than others seeing it as a problem of lack of spending. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 20:26:53 GMT
But what from? We had no such huge issue with it 5-10 years ago? and immigration hasn't change(d) much in that time at all. Ok, I see. It's completely different up here. I'm curious, what political problems do people in Britain consider to be most important then? No, the same things! Immigration and Brexit currently for most. Then a large subset of mostly younger people who see austerity as the number 1 issue. |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Dec 17, 2019 20:38:43 GMT
That I do agree with, it's not racism to see these issues. I think the main difference we has this election was a huge portion of people seeing it as a problem of immigration rather than others seeing it as a problem of lack of spending. Random question that's kinda on-topic. How many people do you think can 'fit' into England? 80m? 100m? 150m? 500m? (By 'fit' I mean so that we can still own nice houses with front & back gardens, we still have parks & open areas in our cities, we still have vast areas of our green & pleasent land out in the country etc...) |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 17, 2019 20:39:22 GMT
I've felt that the left/right doctorine has been creaking for a few years now - on Thursday it's fair to say the wheels fell off rather spectacularly (in the UK at least).
There's too many places that simply don't fall into left or right - even though Stoke had been Labour for years I never really thought of it as a bastien of leftism. Financially it probably was, but at society level it was more right.
What replaces it, I have no idea. Age seems to be biggest dividing line in the UK - although maybe it always was.
I think at some point we're heading to some sort political awakening with young people. The generations before have created a society (by design or not) whereby things get worse for each passing generation of young people - that was after decades of continued improvement of living conditions.
Although with an ageing population maybe we'll just go further and further down the same road.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 17, 2019 20:42:47 GMT
It's really weird. It seems like every country on earth has the same 'issues' in its electorate, with mass immigration and law and order. There is something driving this, and seeing as though immigrants contribute much more to the economy than they take out, some sort of frustration is being misdirected, in my opinion. But what from? We had no such huge issue with it 5-10 years ago? and immigration hasn't change much in that time at all. The last 5-10 years we are seeing the results of certainly EU freedom of movement In my town there is a polish community. It doesn’t bother me There are a polish kids in my kids school. It doesn’t bother me They have learnt about Polish culture. It doesn’t bother me This probably doesn’t bother most people What does bother me and other people is governments didn’t build the infrastructure to support this. Bigger schools, more doctors etc etc. And like inflation a large work force helps to slow wages down. In addition in a lot of cases a lot of the wages were being sent hoMe so don’t contributing to the local economy. And this is before we talk about Eastern European gangs and crime adding to the crime we already have. Add other things to the mix and you get a majority brexit vote People think the motivation of Brexit was racism. It’s not a racism/xenophobic thing it’s seeing this massive increase of people in certain areas and seeing it impact on your life. In the big cities already prosperous it does not affect them as much. It’s easy to post immigration stats that may not back it up but the stats dont change the narrative or perception. And I am not sure if all benefits are taken into account? Then there's child services, housing etc. And when asked on Channel 4 if he was OK with a family with 5 children coming from Romania and getting benefits, Corbyn answered "Families and children come first". Who's paying, Jezza? Your point about money going back to Poland is an interesting one. I recently spoke to a health professional who told me she had holidayed in Greece and her resort was full of Poles, so much so that everything was catered to them and and the holiday wasn't Greek at all. Instead of Greek dancing it was Poles doing Rock and Roll dancing! I know some of our lot do the same in the Costa Del Sol, but she's not one of them and wanted a bit of authentic Greece, not the cast of Grease. So have we enriched one economy while impoverishing our own? I wonder how many people on minimum wage can afford holidays abroad? Or are they only poor when it suits the narrative? I think Labour's let 'em all in policy has absolutely alienated the average Brit, and it was key in the last election to the Tory victory. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 17, 2019 20:44:10 GMT
The last 5-10 years we are seeing the results of certainly EU freedom of movement In my town there is a polish community. It doesn’t bother me There are a polish kids in my kids school. It doesn’t bother me They have learnt about Polish culture. It doesn’t bother me This probably doesn’t bother most people What does bother me and other people is governments didn’t build the infrastructure to support this. Bigger schools, more doctors etc etc. And like inflation a large work force helps to slow wages down. In addition in a lot of cases a lot of the wages were being sent hoMe so don’t contributing to the local economy. And this is before we talk about Eastern European gangs and crime adding to the crime we already have. Add other things to the mix and you get a majority brexit vote People think the motivation of Brexit was racism. It’s not a racism/xenophobic thing it’s seeing this massive increase of people in certain areas and seeing it impact on your life. In the big cities already prosperous it does not affect them as much. It’s easy to post immigration stats that may not back it up but the stats dont change the narrative or perception. That I do agree with, it's not racism to see these issues. I think the main difference we has this election was a huge portion of people seeing it as a problem of immigration rather than others seeing it as a problem of lack of spending. It's both. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 17, 2019 20:47:03 GMT
That I do agree with, it's not racism to see these issues. I think the main difference we has this election was a huge portion of people seeing it as a problem of immigration rather than others seeing it as a problem of lack of spending. Random question that's kinda on-topic. How many people do you think can 'fit' into England? 80m? 100m? 150m? 500m? (By 'fit' I mean so that we can still own nice houses with front & back gardens, we still have parks & open areas in our cities, we still have vast areas of our green & pleasent land out in the country etc...) Farage and others ask the same question only to be slaughtered. It's a perfectly valid one, though. |
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Post by salopstick on Dec 17, 2019 20:49:10 GMT
The last 5-10 years we are seeing the results of certainly EU freedom of movement In my town there is a polish community. It doesn’t bother me There are a polish kids in my kids school. It doesn’t bother me They have learnt about Polish culture. It doesn’t bother me This probably doesn’t bother most people What does bother me and other people is governments didn’t build the infrastructure to support this. Bigger schools, more doctors etc etc. And like inflation a large work force helps to slow wages down. In addition in a lot of cases a lot of the wages were being sent hoMe so don’t contributing to the local economy. And this is before we talk about Eastern European gangs and crime adding to the crime we already have. Add other things to the mix and you get a majority brexit vote People think the motivation of Brexit was racism. It’s not a racism/xenophobic thing it’s seeing this massive increase of people in certain areas and seeing it impact on your life. In the big cities already prosperous it does not affect them as much. It’s easy to post immigration stats that may not back it up but the stats dont change the narrative or perception. And I am not sure if all benefits are taken into account? Then there's child services, housing etc. And when asked on Channel 4 if he was OK with a family with 5 children coming from Romania and getting benefits, Corbyn answered "Families and children come first". Who's paying, Jezza? Your point about money going back to Poland is an interesting one. I recently spoke to a health professional who told me she had holidayed in Greece and her resort was full of Poles, so much so that everything was catered to them and and the holiday wasn't Greek at all. Instead of Greek dancing it was Poles doing Rock and Roll dancing! I know some of our lot do the same in the Costa Del Sol, but she's not one of them and wanted a bit of authentic Greece, not the cast of Grease. So have we enriched one economy while impoverishing our own? I wonder how many people on minimum wage can afford holidays abroad? Or are they only poor when it suits the narrative? I think Labour's let 'em all in policy has absolutely alienated the average Brit, and it was key in the last election to the Tory victory. Roughly £35 million per year which in % terms is low at less than 0.5% of the £13.5 billion child benefit (15/16 figures) is claimed for kids not living in this country. % May be low but £35million per year claimed for kids not in this country is a lot of money. David Cameron was to end this if the EU had agreed to reforms. Obviously the referendum changed that |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 17, 2019 20:53:39 GMT
And I am not sure if all benefits are taken into account? Then there's child services, housing etc. And when asked on Channel 4 if he was OK with a family with 5 children coming from Romania and getting benefits, Corbyn answered "Families and children come first". Who's paying, Jezza? Your point about money going back to Poland is an interesting one. I recently spoke to a health professional who told me she had holidayed in Greece and her resort was full of Poles, so much so that everything was catered to them and and the holiday wasn't Greek at all. Instead of Greek dancing it was Poles doing Rock and Roll dancing! I know some of our lot do the same in the Costa Del Sol, but she's not one of them and wanted a bit of authentic Greece, not the cast of Grease. So have we enriched one economy while impoverishing our own? I wonder how many people on minimum wage can afford holidays abroad? Or are they only poor when it suits the narrative? I think Labour's let 'em all in policy has absolutely alienated the average Brit, and it was key in the last election to the Tory victory. Roughly £35 million per year which in % terms is low at less than 0.5% of the £13.5 billion child benefit (15/16 figures) is claimed for kids not living in this country. % May be low but £35million per year claimed for kids not in this country is a lot of money. David Cameron was to end this if the EU had agreed to reforms. Obviously the referendum changed that I know someone in child services and the things I have heard would make you weep. Funny how they are suddenly struggling, leading to job cuts in other areas to fund them , isn't it? But hey, we're all racist. |
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 17, 2019 20:53:50 GMT
Voting (and politics in general) has nothing to with left or right any more full stop.
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Post by musik on Dec 17, 2019 20:56:34 GMT
I think the main difference we has this election was a huge portion of people seeing it as a problem of immigration rather than others seeing it as a problem of lack of spending. By spending you mean? Spending on what? If you mean schools, health care, childcare, the elderly etc - well you can't have both, can you. It's the same coin. |
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Post by musik on Dec 17, 2019 20:58:02 GMT
Ok, I see. It's completely different up here. I'm curious, what political problems do people in Britain consider to be most important then? No, the same things! Immigration and Brexit currently for most. Then a large subset of mostly younger people who see austerity as the number 1 issue. Then you shouldn't be surprised at all by the result. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 17, 2019 20:59:06 GMT
Voting (and politics in general) has nothing to with left or right any more full stop. Care to expand? |
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Post by musik on Dec 17, 2019 21:02:28 GMT
That I do agree with, it's not racism to see these issues. I think the main difference we has this election was a huge portion of people seeing it as a problem of immigration rather than others seeing it as a problem of lack of spending. It's both. Not only both ... it's the same thing. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 21:52:32 GMT
No, the same things! Immigration and Brexit currently for most. Then a large subset of mostly younger people who see austerity as the number 1 issue. Then you shouldn't be surprised at all by the result. I'm not. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 21:57:51 GMT
"When you're not doing so well, vote for a better life for yourself. If you are doing quite nicely, vote for a better life for others."
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 17, 2019 22:01:26 GMT
Voting (and politics in general) has nothing to with left or right any more full stop. Care to expand? I think the battleground has changed, in the uk and across the world. It’s really about traditional liberalism (values of freedom, democracy, tolerance and respect, which exist on both sides of the traditional spectrum) versus a broad trend towards ideological nationalism, populism and authoritarianism, which seeks power, control and censorship and is intolerant of other political stances (ditto). It’s related to the horseshoe theory of politics which posits that the extremes are far closer to each other than they are to the centre. It explains why John Major and Tony Blair are now political bedfellows, effectively advising people to vote against their own parties, and it explains why Nick Griffin endorsed Corbyn and George Galloway recently forcefully defended Boris Johnson, and it explains why large numbers of voters switched allegiances this election. There are obviously still economic policy differences but in a way I think these are overstated living in the global free market that we do. Not sure if I’m expressing it well but I think “left” and “right” and particularly the tribalism thereof are almost totally meaningless nowadays. It may be no bad thing in the long run. |
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Post by Rick Grimes on Dec 17, 2019 22:12:24 GMT
Jonathan Haidt is great on this topic, people aren’t necessarily right or wrong when they’re left or right, they just place a different emphasis on certain areas.
The left tends to place a lot of emphasis on caring for the weak, sick and vulnerable above all other moral concerns and they’re not so bothered about other moral needs such as loyalty, sanctity or authority.
The right tends to be a lot more ‘balanced’ across those moral concerns.
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Post by georgieboy52 on Dec 17, 2019 23:48:16 GMT
Rubbish. It’s all about class. People who vote right have no class, people who vote left have bags of it. QED. According to you then,the masses in the north who previously voted left have lost their class by voting for the Tories? Let's see how it pans out in the next five years in brexit Britain then judge. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 18, 2019 1:19:11 GMT
Rubbish. It’s all about class. People who vote right have no class, people who vote left have bags of it. QED. According to you then,the masses in the north who previously voted left have lost their class by voting for the Tories? Let's see how it pans out in the next five years in brexit Britain then judge. Think he's joking, Georgie? |
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Post by musik on Dec 18, 2019 1:52:37 GMT
It's really weird. It seems like every country on earth has the same 'issues' in its electorate, with mass immigration and law and order. There is something driving this, and seeing as though immigrants contribute much more to the economy than they take out, some sort of frustration is being misdirected, in my opinion. But what from? We had no such huge issue with it 5-10 years ago? and immigration hasn't change much in that time at all. I interpretated the message above as if you don't understand why the things now happening is happening, lilfraise. "It's really weird" and "what from?" you say here. I assume there are some little words [seeing (it) as (even) though] missing in your post above, but if I understand this correctly, you say immigrants have contributed much more than what they have taken out. Well, lucky bastards you Brits if that's the case. But apparently, many don't agree with that. Even if you've had immigrants coming in "for decades", sooner or later it had to be enough. |
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 18, 2019 7:58:58 GMT
Jonathan Haidt is great on this topic, people aren’t necessarily right or wrong when they’re left or right, they just place a different emphasis on certain areas. The left tends to place a lot of emphasis on caring for the weak, sick and vulnerable above all other moral concerns and they’re not so bothered about other moral needs such as loyalty, sanctity or authority. The right tends to be a lot more ‘balanced’ across those moral concerns. Was listening to Jeramy Paxman talking about the social reformer the 7th Earl of Shaftesbury lastnight & he was eulogising him & his deference to a higher force, as Jeramy said it’s a great temptation as an atheist to do whatever you want & to the wall with everyone else. As Abraham Lincoln said, “Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a mans character, give him power” |
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 18, 2019 8:24:58 GMT
According to you then,the masses in the north who previously voted left have lost their class by voting for the Tories? Let's see how it pans out in the next five years in brexit Britain then judge. Think he's joking, Georgie?  |
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