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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 7:18:47 GMT
Pretty much. When it comes to personal responsibility the left rarely acknowledge it is a factor whereas for others it’s a significant factor. Owen Jones as an example, everything is always someone else’s fault. Bloody hell! You want to try reading some of the right-wing newspapers (which are full of pieces by right-wing politicians) - everything is always someone else's fault. So far this coronavirus farce (worst outcome in Europe, let's not forget) is the fault, variously, of China, PHE, WHO, the civil service, the NHS, never the ones actually in charge! Let's not forget we've had right-wing governments for 28 of the last 41 years. And a centrist, neo-liberal economic one in-between. You'd really think that such a preponderance of the right and free market capitalism would have sorted out the UKs problems by now. We've never been more divided politically, racially or in terms of inequality. That was all a conspiracy from the left to cause havoc so they can slowly start to spread their Marxist, Maoist, Trotskyist bile.........
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 7:38:06 GMT
Pretty much. When it comes to personal responsibility the left rarely acknowledge it is a factor whereas for others it’s a significant factor. Owen Jones as an example, everything is always someone else’s fault. Bloody hell! You want to try reading some of the right-wing newspapers (which are full of pieces by right-wing politicians) - everything is always someone else's fault. So far this coronavirus farce (worst outcome in Europe, let's not forget) is the fault, variously, of China, PHE, WHO, the civil service, the NHS, never the ones actually in charge! Let's not forget we've had right-wing governments for 28 of the last 41 years. And a centrist, neo-liberal economic one in-between. You'd really think that such a preponderance of the right and free market capitalism would have sorted out the UKs problems by now. We've never been more divided politically, racially or in terms of inequality. Social media and the state of journalism have a lot to answer for regarding the divisions you mention.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 22, 2020 7:40:09 GMT
Bloody hell! You want to try reading some of the right-wing newspapers (which are full of pieces by right-wing politicians) - everything is always someone else's fault. So far this coronavirus farce (worst outcome in Europe, let's not forget) is the fault, variously, of China, PHE, WHO, the civil service, the NHS, never the ones actually in charge! Let's not forget we've had right-wing governments for 28 of the last 41 years. And a centrist, neo-liberal economic one in-between. You'd really think that such a preponderance of the right and free market capitalism would have sorted out the UKs problems by now. We've never been more divided politically, racially or in terms of inequality. That was all a conspiracy from the left to cause havoc so they can slowly start to spread their Marxist, Maoist, Trotskyist bile......... The Telegraph, which I read and laugh at daily, regularly has columns blaming the Left for all sorts of issues, the latest being the Left mustn't be allowed to ruin the coronavirus recovery...either they think the Left is actually in government or the government is so shit it is told what to do by this nebulous thing called the Left! I realise it, and all other right-wing papers, are just feeding the political appetites of their readers, but do they never stop to think gosh the Left is incredibly powerful despite never having been in power for the last 40 years! Obviously not! I suspect sometimes this thought does percolate through, which is why the Left is often conflated with Liberals or the Liberal Elite!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 22, 2020 7:42:37 GMT
Bloody hell! You want to try reading some of the right-wing newspapers (which are full of pieces by right-wing politicians) - everything is always someone else's fault. So far this coronavirus farce (worst outcome in Europe, let's not forget) is the fault, variously, of China, PHE, WHO, the civil service, the NHS, never the ones actually in charge! Let's not forget we've had right-wing governments for 28 of the last 41 years. And a centrist, neo-liberal economic one in-between. You'd really think that such a preponderance of the right and free market capitalism would have sorted out the UKs problems by now. We've never been more divided politically, racially or in terms of inequality. Social media and the state of journalism have a lot to answer for regarding the divisions you mention. Probably. Equally the fact people stopped giving a shit about others and it became all about the individual. The I'm alright jack, screw everyone else approach.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 8:52:08 GMT
Social media and the state of journalism have a lot to answer for regarding the divisions you mention. Probably. Equally the fact people stopped giving a shit about others and it became all about the individual. The I'm alright jack, screw everyone else approach. I’m not sure about that at all.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 22, 2020 9:00:14 GMT
Probably. Equally the fact people stopped giving a shit about others and it became all about the individual. The I'm alright jack, screw everyone else approach. I’m not sure about that at all. I'm sure you're not. But your friend Haidt concludes that those on the right are more concerned about themselves, their in group and less about caring for others than are Liberals and Progressives. What governments have we had for 70% of the last four decades? Right-wing ones. What is Brexit about if not reducing the ability of "others" to come to these shores and increasing the purity of decision making by our chosen in-group? England is a right-wing country. These issues are fully in line with Haidt's findings.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 9:37:47 GMT
I’m not sure about that at all. I'm sure you're not. But your friend Haidt concludes that those on the right are more concerned about themselves, their in group and less about caring for others than are Liberals and Progressives. What governments have we had for 70% of the last four decades? Right-wing ones. What is Brexit about if not reducing the ability of "others" to come to these shores and increasing the purity of decision making by our chosen in-group? England is a right-wing country. These issues are fully in line with Haidt's findings. The way you frame things is interesting. You suggest that people did care about others and then have ‘stopped’ as though caring for others is the natural thing to do. I’d suggest it’s the other way around.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 22, 2020 12:29:27 GMT
I'm sure you're not. But your friend Haidt concludes that those on the right are more concerned about themselves, their in group and less about caring for others than are Liberals and Progressives. What governments have we had for 70% of the last four decades? Right-wing ones. What is Brexit about if not reducing the ability of "others" to come to these shores and increasing the purity of decision making by our chosen in-group? England is a right-wing country. These issues are fully in line with Haidt's findings. The way you frame things is interesting. You suggest that people did care about others and then have ‘stopped’ as though caring for others is the natural thing to do. I’d suggest it’s the other way around. You might be right. I've tried to frame things in the language Haidt uses, since we're discussing him. In which case Haidt's conclusions about the Right generally caring less about others than do Liberals/Progressives is a more naturalistic way of behaving than being concerned about care and fairness to others. Doesn't say much for human nature or the case for civilisation as a whole, does it? Probably also goes some way to explaining why Haidt thinks American democracy may well fail in the next 30 years...
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 12:36:17 GMT
The way you frame things is interesting. You suggest that people did care about others and then have ‘stopped’ as though caring for others is the natural thing to do. I’d suggest it’s the other way around. You might be right. I've tried to frame things in the language Haidt uses, since we're discussing him. In which case Haidt's conclusions about the Right generally caring less about others than do Liberals/Progressives is a more naturalistic way of behaving than being concerned about care and fairness to others. Doesn't say much for human nature or the case for civilisation as a whole, does it? Probably also goes some way to explaining why Haidt thinks American democracy may well fail in the next 30 years... People knock nationalism for obvious reasons but it’s really a bit of a miracle in that everyone chips in via paying taxes for the benefit of everyone within a particular nation, the majority of whom are complete strangers. Without the idea of a nation things would probably be a lot worse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 12:56:57 GMT
You might be right. I've tried to frame things in the language Haidt uses, since we're discussing him. In which case Haidt's conclusions about the Right generally caring less about others than do Liberals/Progressives is a more naturalistic way of behaving than being concerned about care and fairness to others. Doesn't say much for human nature or the case for civilisation as a whole, does it? Probably also goes some way to explaining why Haidt thinks American democracy may well fail in the next 30 years... People knock nationalism for obvious reasons but it’s really a bit of a miracle in that everyone chips in via paying taxes for the benefit of everyone within a particular nation, the majority of whom are complete strangers. Without the idea of a nation things would probably be a lot worse. Not everyone chips in though. But we're fed the rhetoric that benefits cheats are the scourge of our society and not tax evaders/cheats by the same newspapers whose owners enjoy non-domiciled status and tell us how patriotic we should be......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 22, 2020 13:21:12 GMT
People knock nationalism for obvious reasons but it’s really a bit of a miracle in that everyone chips in via paying taxes for the benefit of everyone within a particular nation, the majority of whom are complete strangers. Without the idea of a nation things would probably be a lot worse. Not everyone chips in though. But we're fed the rhetoric that benefits cheats are the scourge of our society and not tax evaders/cheats by the same newspapers whose owners enjoy non-domiciled status and tell us how patriotic we should be...... Is it OK to believe that people/ businesses should pay all the taxes that are due without trying to evade them and people should not try to claim benefits to which they are not entitled and to live off benefits should not be a lifestyle choice, irrespective of what the media promotes?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 13:31:11 GMT
Not everyone chips in though. But we're fed the rhetoric that benefits cheats are the scourge of our society and not tax evaders/cheats by the same newspapers whose owners enjoy non-domiciled status and tell us how patriotic we should be...... Is it OK to believe that people/ businesses should pay all the taxes that are due without trying to evade them and people should not try to claim benefits to which they are not entitled and to live off benefits should not be a lifestyle choice, irrespective of what the media promotes? Of course, providing you acknowledge the cost of both to us all as tax payers. One is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, the other could radically transform our country for the better. You wouldn't know that from reading non-dom Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail and General Trust media outlets though.......
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 13:41:43 GMT
Is it OK to believe that people/ businesses should pay all the taxes that are due without trying to evade them and people should not try to claim benefits to which they are not entitled and to live off benefits should not be a lifestyle choice, irrespective of what the media promotes? Of course, providing you acknowledge the cost of both to us all as tax payers. One is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, the other could radically transform our country for the better. You wouldn't know that from reading non-dom Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail and General Trust media outlets though....... ‘Could’ being the key word. A lot of people think things like education would drastically improve if more money is spent on it. Except we have been continually spending more and more money but don’t have the results to show for it.
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Post by foster on Jun 22, 2020 13:44:16 GMT
Is it OK to believe that people/ businesses should pay all the taxes that are due without trying to evade them and people should not try to claim benefits to which they are not entitled and to live off benefits should not be a lifestyle choice, irrespective of what the media promotes? Of course, providing you acknowledge the cost of both to us all as tax payers. One is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, the other could radically transform our country for the better. You wouldn't know that from reading non-dom Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail and General Trust media outlets though....... If I'm working full time and paying all my taxes while my neighbour sits on his lazy arse unfairly claiming disability benefits then It's important to me. Whether it's a drop in the ocean or not is immaterial. It's the principle that counts. The number of people cheating the system isn't a drop in the ocean anyway. Add up all the fraudulent benefit claims, excessive social housing benefits, etc and it's enough to make radical change to many communities and those on normal incomes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 13:49:53 GMT
Of course, providing you acknowledge the cost of both to us all as tax payers. One is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, the other could radically transform our country for the better. You wouldn't know that from reading non-dom Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail and General Trust media outlets though....... ‘Could’ being the key word. A lot of people think things like education would drastically improve if more money is spent on it. Except we have been continually spending more and more money but don’t have the results to show for it. Your answer to everything appears to be "do nothing as you can't guarantee doing something will work"
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 22, 2020 14:07:59 GMT
Is it OK to believe that people/ businesses should pay all the taxes that are due without trying to evade them and people should not try to claim benefits to which they are not entitled and to live off benefits should not be a lifestyle choice, irrespective of what the media promotes? Of course, providing you acknowledge the cost of both to us all as tax payers. One is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, the other could radically transform our country for the better. You wouldn't know that from reading non-dom Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail and General Trust media outlets though....... Both cost "us" "something", it doesn't always have to be , us and them. Why not, if you don't already do so, keep petioning your MP and do all you can about tax evasion. You have established that it is a big problem. On a smaller scale I bet most of us have taken part, unwittingly or not,in the cash in hand culture...although the onus is on the receiver to declare the income. Abd don't read the Daily Mail then.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 14:19:27 GMT
‘Could’ being the key word. A lot of people think things like education would drastically improve if more money is spent on it. Except we have been continually spending more and more money but don’t have the results to show for it. Your answer to everything appears to be "do nothing as you can't guarantee doing something will work" Not really, it’s just an observation. America spends the most out of any country on education per pupil yet it doesn’t get the best results.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 14:45:59 GMT
Of course, providing you acknowledge the cost of both to us all as tax payers. One is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, the other could radically transform our country for the better. You wouldn't know that from reading non-dom Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail and General Trust media outlets though....... Both cost "us" "something", it doesn't always have to be , us and them. Why not, if you don't already do so, keep petioning your MP and do all you can about tax evasion. You have established that it is a big problem. On a smaller scale I bet most of us have taken part, unwittingly or not,in the cash in hand culture...although the onus is on the receiver to declare the income. Abd don't read the Daily Mail then. Of course both cost "us" something john. But one costs us around £1.6 billion a year and one costs us £14 billion. It's just important to note the difference.......
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 22, 2020 14:59:54 GMT
Both cost "us" "something", it doesn't always have to be , us and them. Why not, if you don't already do so, keep petioning your MP and do all you can about tax evasion. You have established that it is a big problem. On a smaller scale I bet most of us have taken part, unwittingly or not,in the cash in hand culture...although the onus is on the receiver to declare the income. Abd don't read the Daily Mail then. Of course both cost "us" something john. But one costs us around £1.6 billion a year and one costs us £14 billion. It's just important to note the difference....... Tax evasion cost - £2.7b (source - Full Fact) Benefit Fraud cost - £2.3b (source - Full Fact) More important to use correct numbers!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 22, 2020 15:12:15 GMT
Both cost "us" "something", it doesn't always have to be , us and them. Why not, if you don't already do so, keep petioning your MP and do all you can about tax evasion. You have established that it is a big problem. On a smaller scale I bet most of us have taken part, unwittingly or not,in the cash in hand culture...although the onus is on the receiver to declare the income. Abd don't read the Daily Mail then. Of course both cost "us" something john. But one costs us around £1.6 billion a year and one costs us £14 billion. It's just important to note the difference....... Noted. I don't think anyone who is interested in such issues disputes what you say. If you can get big business, the likes of Amazon and McDonald's to pay their fair wack ( if they don't) I don't think anyone would argue with you whatsoever. Most people just want to get on with their own lives, and hope that the system works for them. They know in some cases that it doesn't but don't really know what to do about it and are not inclined to do anything because of the effort involved, and I don't blame them. As you know, big business cheating is often remote and anonymous, difficult to put your finger on unless it is your job to scrutinise the books. Benefit lifestyle choice stares many hard working people in their faces, they work hard everyday, they can see their neighbour pulling a fast one( I can understand part of the reason , given the " rewarding" job opportunities available).They don't like it. An easy target, may be, but people who work long hard hours on a daily basis, sometimes feeling exploited, don't like it. It is divisive. It might be a deliberate deflection, to focus attention elsewhere. It also happens. You might not like it in the great scheme of things but "thats the way it is".
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Post by daveandeddy on Jun 22, 2020 15:12:57 GMT
The future of the left.....
Politics is fucked--- we have a weak government headed by an invisible prime minister
and then I look at Labour...…...
Sir Keir Starmer---- had to publicly apologise for failing thousands of 12-14 year old kids over grooming gangs which is still the biggest crime this country has ever seen.
Dawn Butler----- kids are born without sex---- retracts but you only need to say it once
David Lammy --- tried to score political points about the number of deaths at Grenfell--- attempted to claim he knew some of them … fined £5000 for 50000 nuisance calls while running for mayor-- happy to whitesplain Stacey Dooley but has no comments about the thousands of white students latching on to BLM protests . I could go on
Dianne Abbott ---- I will only say she has mental health issues and has been hounded for it--- but front bench?
Rebecca Long Baily --- missing jeremy is the only reason I think she has lost any voice she has...
Angela Rayner--- embarrassing photo opportunity with Starmer bending the knee will come back and haunt her
Jon Ashworth----- Blew his party to bits during the last election -- loose lips sink ships?
Not a scooby do these will ever get into office... labour needs to rid itself of momentum and have a roots and branch clear out of anyone around during the last election... Just an opinion of course
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 15:19:19 GMT
Of course both cost "us" something john. But one costs us around £1.6 billion a year and one costs us £14 billion. It's just important to note the difference....... Tax evasion cost - £2.7b (source - Full Fact) Benefit Fraud cost - £2.3b (source - Full Fact) More important to use correct numbers! For the record the £14 billion includes the tax gap which is uncollected tax from corporations, criminals, small businesses etc. Tax evasion is 15 times more likely than benefit fraud (the number has recently been amended from 25) according to the government's own site......
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Post by serpico on Jun 22, 2020 15:58:43 GMT
The future of the left..... Politics is fucked--- we have a weak government headed by an invisible prime minister and then I look at Labour...…... Sir Keir Starmer---- had to publicly apologise for failing thousands of 12-14 year old kids over grooming gangs which is still the biggest crime this country has ever seen. Dawn Butler----- kids are born without sex---- retracts but you only need to say it once David Lammy --- tried to score political points about the number of deaths at Grenfell--- attempted to claim he knew some of them … fined £5000 for 50000 nuisance calls while running for mayor-- happy to whitesplain Stacey Dooley but has no comments about the thousands of white students latching on to BLM protests . I could go on Dianne Abbott ---- I will only say she has mental health issues and has been hounded for it--- but front bench? Rebecca Long Baily --- missing jeremy is the only reason I think she has lost any voice she has... Angela Rayner--- embarrassing photo opportunity with Starmer bending the knee will come back and haunt her Jon Ashworth----- Blew his party to bits during the last election -- loose lips sink ships? Not a scooby do these will ever get into office... labour needs to rid itself of momentum and have a roots and branch clear out of anyone around during the last election... Just an opinion of course It’s a very weak line up, you can’t imagine any of this lot leading the country, in terms of electability I think starmer is a step in the right direction away from corbyn but if I was a labour supporter there’s nothing here that would excite me or given me any hope, I think they’re going to have to lose another election before the penny drops that the party is basically a sham.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 22, 2020 16:04:44 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 22, 2020 16:20:55 GMT
You might be right. I've tried to frame things in the language Haidt uses, since we're discussing him. In which case Haidt's conclusions about the Right generally caring less about others than do Liberals/Progressives is a more naturalistic way of behaving than being concerned about care and fairness to others. Doesn't say much for human nature or the case for civilisation as a whole, does it? Probably also goes some way to explaining why Haidt thinks American democracy may well fail in the next 30 years... People knock nationalism for obvious reasons but it’s really a bit of a miracle in that everyone chips in via paying taxes for the benefit of everyone within a particular nation, the majority of whom are complete strangers. Without the idea of a nation things would probably be a lot worse. Not really, I think most people understand the concept of mutual benefit, although I do sometimes wonder if many of the folk on here get the linkages all that often. Countries come and countries go. Our own has evolved though several stages. In the states there are loads of different taxes: local, city, state, federal. I'm not sure the concept of a country is all that important in that regard, although administratively I agree that it makes it a bit easier, at the possible cost of unnecessary nationalism.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 22, 2020 16:26:30 GMT
Of course, providing you acknowledge the cost of both to us all as tax payers. One is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, the other could radically transform our country for the better. You wouldn't know that from reading non-dom Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail and General Trust media outlets though....... ‘Could’ being the key word. A lot of people think things like education would drastically improve if more money is spent on it. Except we have been continually spending more and more money but don’t have the results to show for it. Interesting you should say that. The last time both education and health care improved significantly in this country was under Tony Blair's government, which spent proportionately more on both those areas than most other governments before or since have done. I'm not going to get into another discussion about over-spending, it's been done to death on here. But you won't improve systems without funding them properly. By all means attempt to eliminate waste and efficiency too, but it's no coincidence that those European countries with higher % tax takes have generally better public services and also rank higher in tables of population contentedness.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 22, 2020 16:50:19 GMT
This thread was being conducted along fairly civil lines.
Well, until one of the tiresome, tedious twosome decided to blunder in with his cunt this and cunt that contribution..
Shame.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 22, 2020 16:51:30 GMT
Tax evasion cost - £2.7b (source - Full Fact) Benefit Fraud cost - £2.3b (source - Full Fact) More important to use correct numbers! For the record the £14 billion includes the tax gap which is uncollected tax from corporations, criminals, small businesses etc. Tax evasion is 15 times more likely than benefit fraud (the number has recently been amended from 25) according to the government's own site...... Any chance you can provide a link for that... cheers.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 22, 2020 16:53:52 GMT
This thread was being conducted along fairly civil lines. Well, until one of the tiresome, tedious twosome decided to blunder in with his cunt this and cunt that contribution.. Shame. Who called who a cunt? You've just made that up. It's nothing more than a right wing mothers meeting adding absolutely nothing of any value to anyones life.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 22, 2020 16:56:57 GMT
Who called who a cunt? You've just made that up. It's nothing more than a right wing mothers meeting adding absolutely nothing of any value to anyones life. I didn’t say anyone called me a cunt. Carry on in your right wing echo chamber pretending you're all intellectuals when your motives are actually pretty clear for all to see.
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