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Post by M on Dec 13, 2019 9:17:38 GMT
A bruising defeat. I've been licking some wounds and let the rest get their gloating in. I can look back now and accept how wrong I got it myself. I really believed that the Labour manifesto could and would cross and bridge the divide. It didn't.
There's always a few reasons why elections go the way the do. Could I cry about unfair coverage? Could I bemoan dirtier tactics? Should I have expected it? Yeah to all. A lefty will never be on a level playing field, never have, never will.
Ultimately Labour failed to unite the working class. I'm inclined to believe it wasn't because of policy. Granted most don't give a toss about broadband but the vast majority of that Labour manifesto was present two years ago and polling suggested large swathes of the country support nationalisation of key infrastructure and utilities. Was it Corbyn? Well he was a part of it yeah. Granted he was there two years ago and not rejected so overwhelmingly. There's no denying he energised so many, but also disconnected many others too, he was too devisive and he failed in his message of the manifesto being up front and centre over Brexit.
Ah Brexit, that was the difference wasn't it? So many on here said it and admitedly I didn't accept it but Labours shift from honouring the result to ref mk2 failed. We can argue over Brexit forever but what is clear is there's a mandate for a deal now, so like it or lump it I suppose.
But where does the left go? The reasons for the rise of Corbynism still exist and aren't seemingly going anywhere. Wage stagnation, home shortage, poverty, public sector pain.
The centre ground has been holed out in the last 24 hours too. All moderates from both sides have all but vanished. It really is an even stronger two party system so it's vital for the left to come together. Take defeat on the chin. Learn lessons and go again. What do they need to do differently?
For me listening. Next is action with less talking and more doing. The army of supporters are useless digitally, they need to be on the streets. They need to be working with the homeless, food banks. They need to start change more locally instead of waiting every 5 years to ask for votes on doorsteps.
That manifesto though. For the left large aspects of it must remain. That's the starting ground where the debate starts. Allowing another Blair'esque leader will only undo the groundwork put in but its got to be a unifying candidate. If Brexit was to go ahead now as it should, who can do it? Clive Lewis is probably for me the strongest of what's left over after this decimation.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Dec 13, 2019 9:21:54 GMT
Brexit was a huge part of this election, not the only factor but a huge part.
It begs the question how the results would have turned out had Labours policy been one where they would promise to negotiate a better deal and leave as quickly as possible.
The challenge with that would then have been that you'd have been driving a lot of Remain voters over to Lib Dem. However, on balance I think they would have been better off taking that stance.
They had been checkmated over Brexit and had nowhere to go. Their policy in that respect tried to appeal to everyone and ended up appealing to no-one.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 13, 2019 9:36:35 GMT
A bruising defeat. I've been licking some wounds and let the rest get their gloating in. I can look back now and accept how wrong I got it myself. I really believed that the Labour manifesto could and would cross and bridge the divide. It didn't. There's always a few reasons why elections go the way the do. Could I cry about unfair coverage? Could I bemoan dirtier tactics? Should I have expected it? Yeah to all. A lefty will never be on a level playing field, never have, never will. Ultimately Labour failed to unite the working class. I'm inclined to believe it wasn't because of policy. Granted most don't give a toss about broadband but the vast majority of that Labour manifesto was present two years ago and polling suggested large swathes of the country support nationalisation of key infrastructure and utilities. Was it Corbyn? Well he was a part of it yeah. Granted he was there two years ago and not rejected so overwhelmingly. There's no denying he energised so many, but also disconnected many others too, he was too devisive and he failed in his message of the manifesto being up front and centre over Brexit. Ah Brexit, that was the difference wasn't it? So many on here said it and admitedly I didn't accept it but Labours shift from honouring the result to ref mk2 failed. We can argue over Brexit forever but what is clear is there's a mandate for a deal now, so like it or lump it I suppose. But where does the left go? The reasons for the rise of Corbynism still exist and aren't seemingly going anywhere. Wage stagnation, home shortage, poverty, public sector pain. The centre ground has been holed out in the last 24 hours too. All moderates from both sides have all but vanished. It really is an even stronger two party system so it's vital for the left to come together. Take defeat on the chin. Learn lessons and go again. What do they need to do differently? For me listening. Next is action with less talking and more doing. The army of supporters are useless digitally, they need to be on the streets. They need to be working with the homeless, food banks. They need to start change more locally instead of waiting every 5 years to ask for votes on doorsteps. That manifesto though. For the left large aspects of it must remain. That's the starting ground where the debate starts. Allowing another Blair'esque leader will only undo the groundwork put in but its got to be a unifying candidate. If Brexit was to go ahead now as it should, who can do it? Clive Lewis is probably for me the strongest of what's left over after this decimation. 1. London centric 2. Disregarded the brexit vote 3. Helped cultivate the clamour for a brexit vote 4. Still trying to blame the electorate The left need humility in defeat rather than moan at gloating
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Post by werrington on Dec 13, 2019 9:36:58 GMT
The rise of the right is far more concerning
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Post by M on Dec 13, 2019 9:38:53 GMT
Brexit was a huge part of this election, not the only factor but a huge part. It begs the question how the results would have turned out had Labours policy been one where they would promise to negotiate a better deal and leave as quickly as possible. The challenge with that would then have been that you'd have been driving a lot of Remain voters over to Lib Dem. However, on balance I think they would have been better off taking that stance. They had been checkmated over Brexit and had nowhere to go. Their policy in that respect tried to appeal to everyone and ended up appealing to no-one. That's it, the longer it dragged out as it had the less Labour could do. I think the only options were do what they did, which we k ow the result of. Support Boris deal which we all largely know is a bad deal so never an option. Support no deal, which nobody wants or I suppose finally set their stall out on a Norway style deal of leave and sell it hard. I don't think that would have worked. I think they were on to a loser with Brexit regardless which probably explains why they appeared so unsure, because it's hard when all choices are bad ones... They had to make the election about a manifesto but they failed. It didn't resonate as Brexit was so entrenched. If so, maybe their biggest Brexit fault was their first in picking the wrong side. That was the membership though which decided that, not the leader, that was the left...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 9:40:25 GMT
The rise of the right is far more concerning Oh ffs, can't you get it in your head,lots of traditional left leaning Labour voters are backing Brexit. We haven't suddenly turned into a country of fascists no matter what you believe
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Post by M on Dec 13, 2019 9:41:28 GMT
A bruising defeat. I've been licking some wounds and let the rest get their gloating in. I can look back now and accept how wrong I got it myself. I really believed that the Labour manifesto could and would cross and bridge the divide. It didn't. There's always a few reasons why elections go the way the do. Could I cry about unfair coverage? Could I bemoan dirtier tactics? Should I have expected it? Yeah to all. A lefty will never be on a level playing field, never have, never will. Ultimately Labour failed to unite the working class. I'm inclined to believe it wasn't because of policy. Granted most don't give a toss about broadband but the vast majority of that Labour manifesto was present two years ago and polling suggested large swathes of the country support nationalisation of key infrastructure and utilities. Was it Corbyn? Well he was a part of it yeah. Granted he was there two years ago and not rejected so overwhelmingly. There's no denying he energised so many, but also disconnected many others too, he was too devisive and he failed in his message of the manifesto being up front and centre over Brexit. Ah Brexit, that was the difference wasn't it? So many on here said it and admitedly I didn't accept it but Labours shift from honouring the result to ref mk2 failed. We can argue over Brexit forever but what is clear is there's a mandate for a deal now, so like it or lump it I suppose. But where does the left go? The reasons for the rise of Corbynism still exist and aren't seemingly going anywhere. Wage stagnation, home shortage, poverty, public sector pain. The centre ground has been holed out in the last 24 hours too. All moderates from both sides have all but vanished. It really is an even stronger two party system so it's vital for the left to come together. Take defeat on the chin. Learn lessons and go again. What do they need to do differently? For me listening. Next is action with less talking and more doing. The army of supporters are useless digitally, they need to be on the streets. They need to be working with the homeless, food banks. They need to start change more locally instead of waiting every 5 years to ask for votes on doorsteps. That manifesto though. For the left large aspects of it must remain. That's the starting ground where the debate starts. Allowing another Blair'esque leader will only undo the groundwork put in but its got to be a unifying candidate. If Brexit was to go ahead now as it should, who can do it? Clive Lewis is probably for me the strongest of what's left over after this decimation. 1. London centric 2. Disregarded the brexit vote 3. Helped cultivate the clamour for a brexit vote 4. Still trying to blame the electorate The left need humility in defeat rather than moan at gloating For me I don't believe it was London centric. That manifesto screamed working class. It screamed giving the North what it needed. That message wasn't conveyed well enough and certainly not accepted though if what I say is true. Brexit was too present and still overshadowed all of it I thought on reflection...
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Post by werrington on Dec 13, 2019 9:42:03 GMT
The rise of the right is far more concerning Oh ffs, can't you get it in your head,lots of traditional left leaning Labour voters are backing Brexit. We haven't suddenly turned into a country of fascists no matter what you believe I’m not talking about the election I’m talking about in general Get down off that high horse ffs
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 9:47:21 GMT
Oh ffs, can't you get it in your head,lots of traditional left leaning Labour voters are backing Brexit. We haven't suddenly turned into a country of fascists no matter what you believe I’m not talking about the election I’m talking about in general Get down off that high horse ffs You don't think the election is representative then 😂 Btw I don't vote Tory,never have,so I don't have any high horse to get off. Boris is a fucking buffoon but much less dangerous than that fuckwit Corbyn
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Post by georgieboy52 on Dec 13, 2019 9:50:43 GMT
Oh ffs, can't you get it in your head,lots of traditional left leaning Labour voters are backing Brexit. We haven't suddenly turned into a country of fascists no matter what you believe I’m not talking about the election I’m talking about in general Get down off that high horse ffs What evidence exactly do you have for a rise in the 'right' ?
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Post by salopstick on Dec 13, 2019 9:51:26 GMT
The rise of the right is far more concerning Oh ffs, can't you get it in your head,lots of traditional left leaning Labour voters are backing Brexit. We haven't suddenly turned into a country of fascists no matter what you believe Sorry wezza have to agree
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Post by georgieboy52 on Dec 13, 2019 9:52:07 GMT
There are of course some people who believe brexit is in itself a shift to the right.
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Post by spiderpuss on Dec 13, 2019 9:53:42 GMT
Corbyn just comes across as a poor leader and this election is all about Brexit. He failed to grasp that basic brief. Offering some hard to fathom re-ref that didn't chime with many. Its a huge failing and he needs to step down sooner rather than later and let someone who has a younger engagement take charge.
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Post by Dutchpeter on Dec 13, 2019 9:53:44 GMT
I believe the Labour Party should represent the Ordinary working classes. Now that’d be radical wouldn’t it?
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Post by foster on Dec 13, 2019 9:56:48 GMT
Oh ffs, can't you get it in your head,lots of traditional left leaning Labour voters are backing Brexit. We haven't suddenly turned into a country of fascists no matter what you believe Sorry wezza have to agree I know a few London based Labour party members who voted Tory. They just can't stand Corbyn and wanted Brexit over and done with. They'll revert back to their true colours now.
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Post by georgieboy52 on Dec 13, 2019 9:58:59 GMT
1. London centric 2. Disregarded the brexit vote 3. Helped cultivate the clamour for a brexit vote 4. Still trying to blame the electorate The left need humility in defeat rather than moan at gloating For me I don't believe it was London centric. That manifesto screamed working class. It screamed giving the North what it needed. That message wasn't conveyed well enough and certainly not accepted though if what I say is true. Brexit was too present and still overshadowed all of it I thought on reflection... Corbyn was strongly Eurosceptic for almost his entire political life yet said he voted Remain in the referendum. Then said he'd be neutral in a second referendum Credibility problem detected.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 9:59:08 GMT
I believe the Labour Party should represent the Ordinary working classes. Now that’d be radical wouldn’t it? Who are the ordinary working class ? Someone brought up in a terraced house who worked in a factory ? Well that would make John Caudwell working class,the billionaire John Caudwell 😁
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Post by georgieboy52 on Dec 13, 2019 10:01:55 GMT
I believe the Labour Party should represent the Ordinary working classes. Now that’d be radical wouldn’t it? Who are the ordinary working class ? Someone brought up in a terraced house who worked in a factory ? Well that would make John Caudwell working class,the billionaire John Caudwell 😁 I went to school with Caudwell and sat next to him in the same class.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 10:07:21 GMT
Who are the ordinary working class ? Someone brought up in a terraced house who worked in a factory ? Well that would make John Caudwell working class,the billionaire John Caudwell 😁 I went to school with Caudwell and sat next to him in the same class. That makes you a Tory then 😜
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Post by georgieboy52 on Dec 13, 2019 10:09:19 GMT
I went to school with Caudwell and sat next to him in the same class. That makes you a Tory then 😜 Nope,we were just kids at the time in Shelton.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 10:11:06 GMT
That makes you a Tory then 😜 Nope,we were just kids at the time in Shelton. Shelton,a hot bed of Tory support 😉
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 13, 2019 10:11:07 GMT
A bruising defeat. I've been licking some wounds and let the rest get their gloating in. I can look back now and accept how wrong I got it myself. I really believed that the Labour manifesto could and would cross and bridge the divide. It didn't. There's always a few reasons why elections go the way the do. Could I cry about unfair coverage? Could I bemoan dirtier tactics? Should I have expected it? Yeah to all. A lefty will never be on a level playing field, never have, never will. Ultimately Labour failed to unite the working class. I'm inclined to believe it wasn't because of policy. Granted most don't give a toss about broadband but the vast majority of that Labour manifesto was present two years ago and polling suggested large swathes of the country support nationalisation of key infrastructure and utilities. Was it Corbyn? Well he was a part of it yeah. Granted he was there two years ago and not rejected so overwhelmingly. There's no denying he energised so many, but also disconnected many others too, he was too devisive and he failed in his message of the manifesto being up front and centre over Brexit. Ah Brexit, that was the difference wasn't it? So many on here said it and admitedly I didn't accept it but Labours shift from honouring the result to ref mk2 failed. We can argue over Brexit forever but what is clear is there's a mandate for a deal now, so like it or lump it I suppose. But where does the left go? The reasons for the rise of Corbynism still exist and aren't seemingly going anywhere. Wage stagnation, home shortage, poverty, public sector pain. The centre ground has been holed out in the last 24 hours too. All moderates from both sides have all but vanished. It really is an even stronger two party system so it's vital for the left to come together. Take defeat on the chin. Learn lessons and go again. What do they need to do differently? For me listening. Next is action with less talking and more doing. The army of supporters are useless digitally, they need to be on the streets. They need to be working with the homeless, food banks. They need to start change more locally instead of waiting every 5 years to ask for votes on doorsteps. That manifesto though. For the left large aspects of it must remain. That's the starting ground where the debate starts. Allowing another Blair'esque leader will only undo the groundwork put in but its got to be a unifying candidate. If Brexit was to go ahead now as it should, who can do it? Clive Lewis is probably for me the strongest of what's left over after this decimation. 1. London centric 2. Disregarded the brexit vote 3. Helped cultivate the clamour for a brexit vote 4. Still trying to blame the electorate The left need humility in defeat rather than moan at gloating I didn’t vote Labour, but it isn’t them that needs to learn humility...
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Post by Timmypotter on Dec 13, 2019 10:11:26 GMT
Brexit was a huge part of this election, not the only factor but a huge part. It begs the question how the results would have turned out had Labours policy been one where they would promise to negotiate a better deal and leave as quickly as possible. The challenge with that would then have been that you'd have been driving a lot of Remain voters over to Lib Dem. However, on balance I think they would have been better off taking that stance. They had been checkmated over Brexit and had nowhere to go. Their policy in that respect tried to appeal to everyone and ended up appealing to no-one. That's it, the longer it dragged out as it had the less Labour could do. I think the only options were do what they did, which we k ow the result of. Support Boris deal which we all largely know is a bad deal so never an option. Support no deal, which nobody wants or I suppose finally set their stall out on a Norway style deal of leave and sell it hard. I don't think that would have worked. I think they were on to a loser with Brexit regardless which probably explains why they appeared so unsure, because it's hard when all choices are bad ones... They had to make the election about a manifesto but they failed. It didn't resonate as Brexit was so entrenched. If so, maybe their biggest Brexit fault was their first in picking the wrong side. That was the membership though which decided that, not the leader, that was the left... Exactly. If they'd had the guts and gumption to promote a positive, left leaning vision of brexit 4 years ago they'd quite likely be in power already. You cannot take the piss out of the electorate.
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Post by georgieboy52 on Dec 13, 2019 10:12:47 GMT
I actually agree with nationalising essential services but brexit was and is more important to me.
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Post by georgieboy52 on Dec 13, 2019 10:14:00 GMT
Nope,we were just kids at the time in Shelton. Shelton,a hot bed of Tory support 😉 I wouldn't think so nowadays. Look at the demographic.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 13, 2019 10:24:04 GMT
1. London centric 2. Disregarded the brexit vote 3. Helped cultivate the clamour for a brexit vote 4. Still trying to blame the electorate The left need humility in defeat rather than moan at gloating I didn’t vote Labour, but it isn’t them that needs to learn humility... I don’t care how you voted but how can labour start to rebuild when they are pouring shame on their core supporter voting Tory in droves
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 13, 2019 10:41:10 GMT
I didn’t vote Labour, but it isn’t them that needs to learn humility... I don’t care how you voted but how can labour start to rebuild when they are pouring shame on their core supporter voting Tory in droves What is it to you, Blue...
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 13, 2019 10:57:18 GMT
There's no doubt Corbyn was Labour's major problem, but there were also other issues. Their manifesto seemed more extreme this time round, whereas the 2017 one was still big on spending but seemed a bit more balanced. If you had a more acceptable face (and I don't know who that is) trying to sell the 2017 manifesto (with a few changes), then I think you've got the start of something credible.
As for Brexit, it's no doubt their policy was a disaster - but I wonder what would've been the right policy in this election. The Conservatives had a deal on the table, with all the details included - if Labour were to push for leaving with a deal it would be a figurative deal that voters would have to imagine the details of. In terms of Brexit, Labour and this particular general election, there seems to be a host of wrong policies but no obvious correct one. I wonder if offering another referendum with no deal as an option would've made a difference? It was my preferred way forward, but in hindsight I'm not sure it would've made much difference.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 13, 2019 11:55:54 GMT
That's it, the longer it dragged out as it had the less Labour could do. I think the only options were do what they did, which we k ow the result of. Support Boris deal which we all largely know is a bad deal so never an option. Support no deal, which nobody wants or I suppose finally set their stall out on a Norway style deal of leave and sell it hard. I don't think that would have worked. I think they were on to a loser with Brexit regardless which probably explains why they appeared so unsure, because it's hard when all choices are bad ones... They had to make the election about a manifesto but they failed. It didn't resonate as Brexit was so entrenched. If so, maybe their biggest Brexit fault was their first in picking the wrong side. That was the membership though which decided that, not the leader, that was the left... Exactly. If they'd had the guts and gumption to promote a positive, left leaning vision of brexit 4 years ago they'd quite likely be in power already. You cannot take the piss out of the electorate. As a voter in Bolsover has just said on Sky. He said the key moment was when Skinner voted to take No Deal off the table, and also Labour's stance on Brexit in general.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 13, 2019 12:18:33 GMT
I think the left are using Brexit as an excuse. They weren't blaming Brexit at the last election when Labour made all those gains.
What has changed now, is that the electorate are far more aware of who Corbyn IS and they don't like him - he was toxic on the doorstep this time around.
Momentum is destroying the Labour party from within, there's no point in having an ideology, if that's all it ever remains - you have to be IN power to make a difference.
No matter what the Labour party do now, it's going to be virtually impossible to turn over such a big majority within 5 years, it's going to take at least 10, maybe even more.
Jon Lansman and his ilk have set back the Labour party back 10 - 20 years and now the party needs to shift back towards the centre if it's going to have any chance of being relevant in the future.
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