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Post by PotterLog on Sept 3, 2019 13:41:51 GMT
I've mentioned this hypothetical on here before but I heard it discussed on a podcast yesterday and it got me thinking again..
This is the relevant section of the new rule:
An accidental handball will not be penalised *unless* a player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity
The spirit of the law is to not ordinarily penalise accidental handballs (when the arm is in a natural position etc), but to not allow accidental handballs to result in an attacking advantage.
So consider the following scenario:
Let's say it's Spurs v Everton. Spurs have a corner and have all their players up. Kane heads the ball down and it hits Everton defender Leighton Baines' elbow, which is in a completely natural position by his side. The ball breaks favourably for Baines, who hammers it first time for Iwobi to run onto in the other half of the pitch, and he finds himself one-on-one with the Spurs goalkeeper.
What does the ref give? (And as a bonus question, what should Iwobi do in this situation...?)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 13:48:16 GMT
The ref gives a penalty to Spurs and sends off Baines and Iwobi because Spurs are a top 6 team.
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 3, 2019 14:36:36 GMT
The ref gives a penalty to Spurs and sends off Baines and Iwobi because Spurs are a top 6 team. It actually should be a penno to Spurs though right? |
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Sept 3, 2019 14:55:53 GMT
The ref gives a penalty to Spurs and sends off Baines and Iwobi because Spurs are a top 6 team. It actually should be a penno to Spurs though right?
Presumably it's the same as with every other punishable offence i.e. if it's the opposing team that commit the offence (Baines in this case), then the ref can play the advantage so Spurs are fine to go on and score.
Obviously as with everywhere else on the pitch (and as with every other offence) however, if it's the team that commit the offence that gain the advantage, then the offence is punished.
I don't see why its any different to playing the advantage for an innocuous clumsy challenge on the half way line....the rules state there it has to be a free kick, but the refs regularly play advantage if applicable. I'd imagine you may need to look into the guideline for refs rather than the rules themselves, as they have any areas where they can use their discretion.
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 3, 2019 15:09:01 GMT
It actually should be a penno to Spurs though right? Presumably it's the same as with every other punishable offence i.e. if it's the opposing team that commit the offence (Baines in this case), then the ref can play the advantage so Spurs are fine to go on and score.
Obviously as with everywhere else on the pitch (and as with every other offence) however, if it's the team that commit the offence that gain the advantage, then the offence is punished. I don't see why its any different to playing the advantage for an innocuous clumsy challenge on the half way line....the rules state there it has to be a free kick, but the refs regularly play advantage if applicable. I'd imagine you may need to look into the guideline for refs rather than the rules themselves, as they have any areas where they can use their discretion.
It's Everton that are going to score, not Spurs... so it's nothing to do with playing advantage, it's about whether an accidental handball in the box can result in a penalty. It shouldn't, but I believe in this case it would. Thus I think the best thing for Iwobi to do would be to deliberately not try to score - if he scores, he hands a penalty to Spurs. edit: the original handball only becomes a punishable offence, as you put it, at the moment Everton have a goal-scoring opportunity |
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Sept 3, 2019 16:07:07 GMT
Presumably it's the same as with every other punishable offence i.e. if it's the opposing team that commit the offence (Baines in this case), then the ref can play the advantage so Spurs are fine to go on and score.
Obviously as with everywhere else on the pitch (and as with every other offence) however, if it's the team that commit the offence that gain the advantage, then the offence is punished. I don't see why its any different to playing the advantage for an innocuous clumsy challenge on the half way line....the rules state there it has to be a free kick, but the refs regularly play advantage if applicable. I'd imagine you may need to look into the guideline for refs rather than the rules themselves, as they have any areas where they can use their discretion.
It's Everton that are going to score, not Spurs... so it's nothing to do with playing advantage, it's about whether an accidental handball in the box can result in a penalty. It shouldn't, but I believe in this case it would. Thus I think the best thing for Iwobi to do would be to deliberately not try to score - if he scores, he hands a penalty to Spurs. edit: the original handball only becomes a punishable offence, as you put it, at the moment Everton have a goal-scoring opportunity
Yep...completely my bad as got the scenario completely confused 
Yep, presumably a pen to Spurs
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Post by madnellie on Sept 3, 2019 16:13:25 GMT
It's Everton that are going to score, not Spurs... so it's nothing to do with playing advantage, it's about whether an accidental handball in the box can result in a penalty. It shouldn't, but I believe in this case it would. Thus I think the best thing for Iwobi to do would be to deliberately not try to score - if he scores, he hands a penalty to Spurs. edit: the original handball only becomes a punishable offence, as you put it, at the moment Everton have a goal-scoring opportunity Yep...completely my bad as got the scenario completely confused Yep, presumably a pen to Spurs
From everything I've seen so far (including the VAR debacle that was the early stages of WWC) I believe that yes it would be a penalty to Spurs under the new rules. To be fair, it probably would have been a penalty under the old rules too, even though it shouldn't have been, because as already mentioned, Spurs are a 'bigger' club. Edited to add: Unless Iwobi quickly boots it out of play before the ref blows up. |
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Post by Olgrligm on Sept 3, 2019 16:44:11 GMT
I've mentioned this hypothetical on here before but I heard it discussed on a podcast yesterday and it got me thinking again.. This is the relevant section of the new rule: An accidental handball will not be penalised *unless* a player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunityThe spirit of the law is to not ordinarily penalise accidental handballs (when the arm is in a natural position etc), but to not allow accidental handballs to result in an attacking advantage. So consider the following scenario: Let's say it's Spurs v Everton. Spurs have a corner and have all their players up. Kane heads the ball down and it hits Everton defender Leighton Baines' elbow, which is in a completely natural position by his side. The ball breaks favourably for Baines, who hammers it first time for Iwobi to run onto in the other half of the pitch, and he finds himself one-on-one with the Spurs goalkeeper. What does the ref give? (And as a bonus question, what should Iwobi do in this situation...?) In this case, I think it depends on the semantics of 'gains possession/control'. Has he gained control if the ball happens to drop into a clearing and he reacts first to boot it clear? Is it punishable by a direct (i.e. a penalty) or indirect free kick? |
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 3, 2019 17:16:45 GMT
I've mentioned this hypothetical on here before but I heard it discussed on a podcast yesterday and it got me thinking again.. This is the relevant section of the new rule: An accidental handball will not be penalised *unless* a player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunityThe spirit of the law is to not ordinarily penalise accidental handballs (when the arm is in a natural position etc), but to not allow accidental handballs to result in an attacking advantage. So consider the following scenario: Let's say it's Spurs v Everton. Spurs have a corner and have all their players up. Kane heads the ball down and it hits Everton defender Leighton Baines' elbow, which is in a completely natural position by his side. The ball breaks favourably for Baines, who hammers it first time for Iwobi to run onto in the other half of the pitch, and he finds himself one-on-one with the Spurs goalkeeper. What does the ref give? (And as a bonus question, what should Iwobi do in this situation...?) In this case, I think it depends on the semantics of 'gains possession/control'. Has he gained control if the ball happens to drop into a clearing and he reacts first to boot it clear? Is it punishable by a direct (i.e. a penalty) or indirect free kick? These are my questions! But there’s no case where an indirect free-kick can be awarded for a handball that I’m aware of so I think it would have to be a penalty. Regarding gaining control/possession, it’s hard to say Everton haven’t gained possession - but for argument’s sake, say Baines takes a quick touch and then plays a long pass along the ground for Iwobi to run onto. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 3, 2019 17:47:35 GMT
Goal to Everton
If the spurs defence are shit enough to let iwobl run over half the length of the pitch they deserve to concede
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 3, 2019 17:47:40 GMT
Yep...completely my bad as got the scenario completely confused Yep, presumably a pen to Spurs
From everything I've seen so far (including the VAR debacle that was the early stages of WWC) I believe that yes it would be a penalty to Spurs under the new rules. To be fair, it probably would have been a penalty under the old rules too, even though it shouldn't have been, because as already mentioned, Spurs are a 'bigger' club. Edited to add: Unless Iwobi quickly boots it out of play before the ref blows up. This is the thing - it’s actually in the forward’s hands here whether his team concede a penalty or not. |
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Post by wolfinsheepsclothing on Sept 3, 2019 17:53:43 GMT
Surely it means any advantage to the attacking team? At the time of the handball
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Post by leicspotter on Sept 3, 2019 17:57:55 GMT
Penalty to Liverpool surely?  |
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 3, 2019 18:18:51 GMT
Surely it means any advantage to the attacking team? At the time of the handball The wording is as stated in the OP, nothing about who is attacking or where it happens on the pitch |
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Post by madnellie on Sept 4, 2019 1:13:47 GMT
In this case, I think it depends on the semantics of 'gains possession/control'. Has he gained control if the ball happens to drop into a clearing and he reacts first to boot it clear? Is it punishable by a direct (i.e. a penalty) or indirect free kick? These are my questions! But there’s no case where an indirect free-kick can be awarded for a handball that I’m aware of If the goalkeeper doesn't release the ball within six seconds after initially handling it, it results in an indirect free kick. Not sure if that really counts as a handball though? |
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Post by Billybigbollox on Sept 4, 2019 8:24:03 GMT
Offside. Kane’s nose, when the ball was played forward.
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