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Post by prettything on Nov 1, 2019 18:52:50 GMT
What deal would you be satisfied with? I think there were a lot people who were led to believe that we would be able to have our cake and eat it when leaving the EU, and are now disappointed this isn’t the case. It would be interesting to know the wishes of leavers on here on what they consider a good deal would look like? A "deal" is a separate issue from being in or out of the EU. It is possible not to be in the organisation and not to have a " deal" It is now about democracy.[/quote I appreciate your view on that, but there were a lot of leave politicians before the vote mooting, that a deal would be easy. Now, it seems that wasn’t the case. I would like to know leavers views on what a good deal would like in their eyes, and why Boris or even May’s, is a poor one.
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Post by starkiller on Nov 1, 2019 18:55:32 GMT
The ball is in Boris' court. A hung parliament is a real possibility if he doesn't do a deal with Farage and it will be 100% his fault. A deal with Farage virtually guarantees a Brexiteer dominated parliament that would place Boris in a very strong position to dictate terms to the EU but I'm not sure he has the bollocks for it! Farage is toxic to too many voters including folk who voted to leave. The most likely outcome of a high vote for the BP is to lead to a remain coalition in Westminster and a second referendum which would see a binary choice between a Brexit that means we stay in the single market (remember Labour have committed to support freedom of movement of people) or remain. In other words a vote for the Brexit Party is a vote to kill Brexit. Which is quite funny when you think about it. So you'll be voting Brexit Party?
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Post by countofmontecristo on Nov 1, 2019 19:04:30 GMT
The ball is in Boris' court. A hung parliament is a real possibility if he doesn't do a deal with Farage and it will be 100% his fault. A deal with Farage virtually guarantees a Brexiteer dominated parliament that would place Boris in a very strong position to dictate terms to the EU but I'm not sure he has the bollocks for it! Farage is toxic to too many voters including folk who voted to leave. The most likely outcome of a high vote for the BP is to lead to a remain coalition in Westminster and a second referendum which would see a binary choice between a Brexit that means we stay in the single market (remember Labour have committed to support freedom of movement of people) or remain. In other words a vote for the Brexit Party is a vote to kill Brexit. Which is quite funny when you think about it. He's not as toxic as the Tories in many areas of the Midlands and North. Farage could wreak havoc in the Labour heartlands if the Tories don't run. It's a golden opportunity for Boris to fuck Labour for years to come and not even get his hands dirty but it seems he's rolling the dice and the best he can hope for is a situation slightly better than the one he's currently in! I don't get it😩
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 1, 2019 19:11:08 GMT
A "deal" is a separate issue from being in or out of the EU. It is possible not to be in the organisation and not to have a " deal" It is now about democracy.[/quote I appreciate your view on that, but there were a lot of leave politicians before the vote mooting, that a deal would be easy. Now, it seems that wasn’t the case. I would like to know leavers views on what a good deal would like in their eyes, and why Boris or even May’s, is a poor one. Many of those genuine people who trusted the government's promises about the referendum ( "it's your decision, it means leaving the single market" etc) are shocked at the extent that Parliament has conspired to break those promises...even Farage is shocked, and Davis... A so called " deal" could and would have been relatively easy had the promises been honoured....and the EU and Parliament respected and accepted the decision to leave ( it is not compulsory to be in the EU).....it would have been easy because we already have smooth trade in place. ..BUT it is not about trade... it's about ever closer economic and political Union. A " deal" is simply part of the strategy to remsin We are now in a nee ball game of democracy and sovereignty.
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Post by prettything on Nov 1, 2019 19:15:48 GMT
So, what deal would you be happy with compared to what is on offer ?
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Post by pearo on Nov 1, 2019 19:16:44 GMT
Farage is toxic to too many voters including folk who voted to leave. The most likely outcome of a high vote for the BP is to lead to a remain coalition in Westminster and a second referendum which would see a binary choice between a Brexit that means we stay in the single market (remember Labour have committed to support freedom of movement of people) or remain. In other words a vote for the Brexit Party is a vote to kill Brexit. Which is quite funny when you think about it. He's not as toxic as the Tories in many areas of the Midlands and North. Farage could wreak havoc in the Labour heartlands if the Tories don't run. It's a golden opportunity for Boris to fuck Labour for years to come and not even get his hands dirty but it seems he's rolling the dice and the best he can hope for is a situation slightly better than the one he's currently in! I don't get it😩 Here is the dilemma for Johnson, do a pact with Farage and risk losing some Tory seats to the Lib Dems in Tory marginals. Don’t do a pact with Farage and then hang onto most of the Tory marginals but see Labour decimated in Merseyside, the North East and the Midlands by the Brexit Party. Tough choice?
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Post by countofmontecristo on Nov 1, 2019 19:25:07 GMT
He's not as toxic as the Tories in many areas of the Midlands and North. Farage could wreak havoc in the Labour heartlands if the Tories don't run. It's a golden opportunity for Boris to fuck Labour for years to come and not even get his hands dirty but it seems he's rolling the dice and the best he can hope for is a situation slightly better than the one he's currently in! I don't get it😩 Here is the dilemma for Johnson, do a pact with Farage and risk losing some Tory seats to the Lib Dems in Tory marginals. Don’t do a pact with Farage and then hang onto most of the Tory marginals but see Labour decimated in Merseyside, the North East and the Midlands by the Brexit Party. Tough choice? Why would it be better in Tory marginals to have the Brexit Party standing against them and splitting the leave vote? Surely standing as the only leave party would be to the Tories advantage?
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 1, 2019 19:53:36 GMT
Farage is toxic to too many voters including folk who voted to leave. The most likely outcome of a high vote for the BP is to lead to a remain coalition in Westminster and a second referendum which would see a binary choice between a Brexit that means we stay in the single market (remember Labour have committed to support freedom of movement of people) or remain. In other words a vote for the Brexit Party is a vote to kill Brexit. Which is quite funny when you think about it. So you'll be voting Brexit Party? I’ve not decided who to vote for. It won’t be the Brexit Party though.
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Post by salopstick on Nov 1, 2019 19:55:45 GMT
Here is the dilemma for Johnson, do a pact with Farage and risk losing some Tory seats to the Lib Dems in Tory marginals. Don’t do a pact with Farage and then hang onto most of the Tory marginals but see Labour decimated in Merseyside, the North East and the Midlands by the Brexit Party. Tough choice? Why would it be better in Tory marginals to have the Brexit Party standing against them and splitting the leave vote? Surely standing as the only leave party would be to the Tories advantage? In certain areas BP will take labour leave voters who would never vote Tory Stoke?
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 1, 2019 20:09:06 GMT
Up here in Scotland there’s another hot topic in addition to Brexit- Indy Ref 2 And there’s been a significant development in the latter topic today: Nicola Sturgeon says Labour will grant Indyref2The Tories are delighted with this news, Scottish Labour definitely not. Seems like Corbyn went against local advice. The expectation now is the Tories may not lose as many seats in Scotland as they feared. Labour, on the other hand, could be wiped out.
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Post by salopstick on Nov 1, 2019 20:18:38 GMT
Up here in Scotland there’s another hot topic in addition to Brexit- Indy Ref 2 And there’s been a significant development in the latter topic today: Nicola Sturgeon says Labour will grant Indyref2The Tories are delighted with this news, Scottish Labour definitely not. Seems like Corbyn went against local advice. The expectation now is the Tories may not lose as many seats in Scotland as they feared. Labour, on the other hand, could be wiped out. Is Scottish independence inevitable In the next 20 years
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 1, 2019 20:21:21 GMT
Up here in Scotland there’s another hot topic in addition to Brexit- Indy Ref 2 And there’s been a significant development in the latter topic today: Nicola Sturgeon says Labour will grant Indyref2The Tories are delighted with this news, Scottish Labour definitely not. Seems like Corbyn went against local advice. The expectation now is the Tories may not lose as many seats in Scotland as they feared. Labour, on the other hand, could be wiped out. Is Scottish independence inevitable In the next 20 years No.
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Post by serpico on Nov 1, 2019 20:42:42 GMT
I'm going all in with the brexit party, let the chips fall where they will, if one of the 'reverse brexit' parties takes power then brexiteers will retrench and look at other options.
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Post by harryburrows on Nov 1, 2019 20:57:26 GMT
Is Scottish independence inevitable In the next 20 years No. Is this because they won't be given another vote ? Or despite the claims from the snp there is no majority in favour . Its hard to see how a second indi ref can be avoided
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Post by salopstick on Nov 1, 2019 21:09:14 GMT
I'm going all in with the brexit party, let the chips fall where they will, if one of the 'reverse brexit' parties takes power then brexiteers will retrench and look at other options. It really depends where you live. In stoke bp is a good option. In north Shropshire our mp is brexiteer Owen Paterson. Mr Paterson will be getting my vote again. I will never consider voting labour whilst Corbyn is at the helm
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Post by smallthorner on Nov 1, 2019 23:00:23 GMT
I'm going all in with the brexit party, let the chips fall where they will, if one of the 'reverse brexit' parties takes power then brexiteers will retrench and look at other options. Absolutely. The more people we get to vote Brexit Party .... the more chance we've got a non brexit. Happy days.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 2, 2019 1:11:47 GMT
I'm going all in with the brexit party, let the chips fall where they will, if one of the 'reverse brexit' parties takes power then brexiteers will retrench and look at other options. Absolutely. The more people we get to vote Brexit Party .... the more chance we've got a non brexit. Happy days. The idea all along, Biggy. We're having another unnecessary election to ensure Brexit doesn't happen.
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Post by M on Nov 2, 2019 6:44:33 GMT
Up here in Scotland there’s another hot topic in addition to Brexit- Indy Ref 2 And there’s been a significant development in the latter topic today: Nicola Sturgeon says Labour will grant Indyref2The Tories are delighted with this news, Scottish Labour definitely not. Seems like Corbyn went against local advice. The expectation now is the Tories may not lose as many seats in Scotland as they feared. Labour, on the other hand, could be wiped out. What's the score up there with the impending Salmon court case? I've not heard much south of the border about it but a good friend of mine who is quite politically engaged reckons the outcome is likely to be pretty damming for Sturgeon and that she will likely be resigning as an outcome... He's also of the opinion that the Tories are going to lose virtually all the gains they had up there in 2017 (largely due to being not moderate enough anymore) with the SNP picking most of them up with Labour likely picking up a few in and around Glasgow...
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 2, 2019 7:16:44 GMT
Up here in Scotland there’s another hot topic in addition to Brexit- Indy Ref 2 And there’s been a significant development in the latter topic today: Nicola Sturgeon says Labour will grant Indyref2The Tories are delighted with this news, Scottish Labour definitely not. Seems like Corbyn went against local advice. The expectation now is the Tories may not lose as many seats in Scotland as they feared. Labour, on the other hand, could be wiped out. What's the score up there with the impending Salmon court case? I've not heard much south of the border about it but a good friend of mine who is quite politically engaged reckons the outcome is likely to be pretty damming for Sturgeon and that she will likely be resigning as an outcome... He's also of the opinion that the Tories are going to lose virtually all the gains they had up there in 2017 (largely due to being not moderate enough anymore) with the SNP picking most of them up with Labour likely picking up a few in and around Glasgow... I’ve no idea what the impact of the Salmond case will be. It is expected to be damaging to the SNP. The only question is how much. Time will tell on that. As to the election, a few weeks back it seemed like the SNP could be on course to make a near enough clean sweep in Scotland. But since then the Tories have become increasingly confident. True - they have lost their charismatic local leader Ruth Davidson and replaced him with a bumpkin, Jackson Carlaw. But the fact Johnson has a deal has been good for them, as well as Labour’s general incompetence in Scotland (they are truly inept up here) combined with Corbyn’s support for Indyref 2 has got them looking more optimistic. It will still be a dominant performance by the SNP though. That doesn’t amount to much of course - if, of course, the Tories win. All eyes though will be on their vote share - is it over 50%. The key event in Scotland is not this election but the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections. If the SNP secure an independence majority there, that will be enough to make Indyref 2 happen. Because that election will be fought on that one subject.
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Post by Frogger Theft Auto on Nov 2, 2019 8:55:14 GMT
Why would it be better in Tory marginals to have the Brexit Party standing against them and splitting the leave vote? Surely standing as the only leave party would be to the Tories advantage? In certain areas BP will take labour leave voters who would never vote Tory Stoke? I think Stoke South is the archetypal area where the BP just splits the Conservative and ardent leaver vote to let Labour in. Jack Brereton (Tory MP) only got in Stoke South in 2017 because there was no UKIP, so he hoovered up the hefty UKIP vote and some Labour leavers and just about pipped Labour. Without a pact, BP standing in Stoke South decimates the Tory vote, shaves the Labour vote and Labour get in.
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 2, 2019 9:23:53 GMT
Is this because they won't be given another vote ? Or despite the claims from the snp there is no majority in favour . Its hard to see how a second indi ref can be avoided The key in the immediate future is the next Scottish Parliament election in May 2021. If there is a Nationalist majority in Holyrood I am sure Westminster will agree to indyref2. But that is a big “If”. The recent SNP success has been derived, in part, from people who are unionists who believe SNP are the best party to govern Scotland within the Union. That, btw, was the argument they put forward in UK General Elections. When they become explicitly separatist these voters tend to leave them. If a second Indyref does come about, victory is far from assured. The underlying problems surrounding the first referendum, predominantly relating to the economy, still haven’t been resolved. If anything Brexit has made them even starker. This is why opinion in Scotland is still decisively against independence. It may change. But I doubt it.
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Post by salopstick on Nov 2, 2019 9:25:45 GMT
What's the score up there with the impending Salmon court case? I've not heard much south of the border about it but a good friend of mine who is quite politically engaged reckons the outcome is likely to be pretty damming for Sturgeon and that she will likely be resigning as an outcome... He's also of the opinion that the Tories are going to lose virtually all the gains they had up there in 2017 (largely due to being not moderate enough anymore) with the SNP picking most of them up with Labour likely picking up a few in and around Glasgow... I’ve no idea what the impact of the Salmond case will be. It is expected to be damaging to the SNP. The only question is how much. Time will tell on that. As to the election, a few weeks back it seemed like the SNP could be on course to make a near enough clean sweep in Scotland. But since then the Tories have become increasingly confident. True - they have lost their charismatic local leader Ruth Davidson and replaced him with a bumpkin, Jackson Carlaw. But the fact Johnson has a deal has been good for them, as well as Labour’s general incompetence in Scotland (they are truly inept up here) combined with Corbyn’s support for Indyref 2 has got them looking more optimistic. It will still be a dominant performance by the SNP though. That doesn’t amount to much of course - if, of course, the Tories win. All eyes though will be on their vote share - is it over 50%. The key event in Scotland is not this election but the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections. If the SNP secure an independence majority there, that will be enough to make Indyref 2 happen. Because that election will be fought on that one subject. That’s when the fall out of the salmon case affects them With the greatest of respect imo the snp are a large protest vote and opposition in parliment. Depending on government numbers they don’t have too much sway It is in the Scottish parliment where they wield most power and have the ability to implement change up there
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Post by serpico on Nov 2, 2019 10:10:43 GMT
I'm going all in with the brexit party, let the chips fall where they will, if one of the 'reverse brexit' parties takes power then brexiteers will retrench and look at other options. Absolutely. The more people we get to vote Brexit Party .... the more chance we've got a non brexit. Happy days. ... and that will be the end of matters wrong.
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Post by ravey123 on Nov 2, 2019 11:02:32 GMT
I'm going all in with the brexit party, let the chips fall where they will, if one of the 'reverse brexit' parties takes power then brexiteers will retrench and look at other options. It really depends where you live. In stoke bp is a good option. In north Shropshire our mp is brexiteer Owen Paterson. Mr Paterson will be getting my vote again. I will never consider voting labour whilst Corbyn is at the helm Similar dilemma for me. Voted Brexit party at the Euros (despite being a (previously) life long labour voter). Can't/won't vote for Corbyn and his cronies but my MP is Bill Cash who is an ardent Brexiteer so looks like i have to do the unthinkable and vote Tory
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Post by salopstick on Nov 2, 2019 13:13:24 GMT
The end of Chukka?
Another Liberal is standing in Streatham
They have given him City of London and Westminster seat to contest.
Always won by the conservatives.
2017 results Con 18k Lab 15k Lib 2.2k
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Post by pearo on Nov 2, 2019 13:32:32 GMT
The end of Chukka? Another Liberal is standing in Streatham They have given him City of London and Westminster seat to contest. Always won by the conservatives. 2017 results Con 18k Lab 15k Lib 2.2k Just shows what the Lib Dems think of Chukka
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 2, 2019 13:51:39 GMT
The end of Chukka? Another Liberal is standing in Streatham They have given him City of London and Westminster seat to contest. Always won by the conservatives. 2017 results Con 18k Lab 15k Lib 2.2k Just shows what the Lib Dems think of Chukka They’re Chukking him under a bus
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 2, 2019 14:08:01 GMT
Just shows what the Lib Dems think of Chukka They’re Chukking him under a bus Oh dear never mind
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Post by essexstokey on Nov 2, 2019 14:28:32 GMT
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Post by thehoof on Nov 2, 2019 14:38:29 GMT
Some choice- Johnson & Reece Mogg or Corbyn and Abbott. I’d sooner be Edward II.
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