|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 18:48:49 GMT
So far we have people questioning everything from the owners to the tea lady, but is the issue a bit more simple than we think, something that hasn't been mentioned? This is a list of all senior players that have a squad number. | Player | Time at Club | | Jack Butland | 6 years | | Stephen Ward | < 1 month | | Joe Allen | 3 years | | Liam Lindsay | 2 months | | Danny Batth | 7 months | | Tom Ince | 1 year | | Peter Etebo | 1 year | | Sam Vokes | 7 months | | James McClean | 1 year | | Carter Vickers | < 1 month | | Tommy Smith | 2 months | | BMI | 3 years | | Adam Davies | 2 months | | Ryan Shawcross | 11 years | | Lee Gregory | 2 months | | Scott Hogan | < 1 month | | Sam Clucas | 1 year | | Jordan Cousins | 2 months | | Nick Powell | 2 months | | Mark Duffy | < 1 month | | Adam Federici | 1 year | | Ryan Woods | 1 year | | Badou N'Diaye | 17 months |
To say the entire squad is a bit transient and lucid is a bit of an understatement and I think it's easier to see when it is wrote down, even though most of us are intelligent enough to realise that the players just haven't been together that long, coupled with a change in manager. Could this be a huge part of our confidence issues, in that the players don't really know each other that well to have confidence in each other in the first place? |
|
|
|
Post by heworksardtho on Aug 26, 2019 18:52:14 GMT
We are playing like strangers 😎
|
|
|
|
Post by serpico on Aug 26, 2019 18:55:45 GMT
jones made wholesale changes at Luton going into his first full season there and it worked for him, it’s had the opposite effect here, we’ve got worse.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 19:04:12 GMT
This is like what Lou said today. Too many signings. iMO we even had too many last year. We should have stuck with our core squad and added to it. Particularly fire power. It’s been crazy.
Even amongst the squad there’s too many chopping and changings in the match day teams. You need to build an understanding of one another and we just don’t have it.
|
|
|
|
Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Aug 26, 2019 19:10:52 GMT
So far we have people questioning everything from the owners to the tea lady, but is the issue a bit more simple than we think, something that hasn't been mentioned? This is a list of all senior players that have a squad number. | Player | Time at Club | | Jack Butland | 6 years | | Stephen Ward | < 1 month | | Joe Allen | 3 years | | Liam Lindsay | 2 months | | Danny Batth | 7 months | | Tom Ince | 1 year | | Peter Etebo | 1 year | | Sam Vokes | 7 months | | James McClean | 1 year | | Carter Vickers | < 1 month | | Tommy Smith | 2 months | | BMI | 3 years | | Adam Davies | 2 months | | Ryan Shawcross | 11 years | | Lee Gregory | 2 months | | Scott Hogan | < 1 month | | Sam Clucas | 1 year | | Jordan Cousins | 2 months | | Nick Powell | 2 months | | Mark Duffy | < 1 month | | Adam Federici | 1 year | | Ryan Woods | 1 year | | Badou N'Diaye | 17 months |
To say the entire squad is a bit transient and lucid is a bit of an understatement and I think it's easier to see when it is wrote down, even though most of us are intelligent enough to realise that the players just haven't been together that long, coupled with a change in manager. Could this be a huge part of our confidence issues, in that the players don't really know each other that well to have confidence in each other in the first place? Yes, and common sense would suggest looking to master a simple game plan at first, and slowly integrating the much more difficult and complex diamond formation |
|
|
|
Post by thisisouryear on Aug 26, 2019 19:20:00 GMT
Everyone has been saying the players need time to bed in. The problem was that the clear out was needed on such a large scale in the 1st place. Jones didn't really have much choice did he? He has also had his hands tied going into the transfer market, so it was a bit shit for him from day 1.
You could argue making loads of changes in the lower leagues works easier than at this level. Maybe it's just time which is key to our success, you would certainly expect us to get better as the season goes on. The commitment to the cause has been there in most games, but its been a case of us not taking our chances and nearly every chance against us going in.
|
|
|
|
Post by serpico on Aug 26, 2019 19:20:12 GMT
We have an inexperienced manager who seems lost
A whole new teams worth of players who seem distinctly average
A number of players on huge contracts and not playing
Players with supposed “mentality” issues
Won 3 games in 26
Conceded 13 in 5 games
It’s actually quite frightening.
|
|
|
|
Post by chumley on Aug 26, 2019 19:28:15 GMT
I thought that the players were either shit scared of playing at bet 365 or as diouff said, sick of being moaned at , at the earliest opportunity but after watching the Preston game away, it appears not and there is something not right somewhere.
think Birmingham will be bit of yardstick to measure by, hopefully get 3 points and kick start the season a bit.
|
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Aug 26, 2019 19:37:30 GMT
We have an inexperienced manager who seems lost A whole new teams worth of players who seem distinctly average A number of players on huge contracts and not playing Players with supposed “mentality” issues Won 3 games in 26 Conceded 13 in 5 games It’s actually quite frightening. Not many clubs would be keeping a manager with those statistics, in fact not many organisations would allow the abject failures to carry on. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 19:44:31 GMT
It may also explain why we feel so bewildered as fans. These players are all so new we don’t have any real affinity with them. Of course we will support them as they are wearing the shirt but there is no history anymore. New players are exciting but this has been far too much. I’m sure the connection will build over time.
|
|
|
|
Post by serpico on Aug 26, 2019 19:51:48 GMT
It may also explain why we feel so bewildered as fans. These players are all so new we don’t have any real affinity with them. Of course we will support them as they are wearing the shirt but there is no history anymore. New players are exciting but this has been far too much. I’m sure the connection will build over time. I get that feeling as well, it’s odd, it’s like watching a team who’ve showed up without their kit so someone has lent them a load of stoke shirts to play in. |
|
|
|
Post by jezzascfc on Aug 26, 2019 19:56:12 GMT
He had no choice but to build again from scratch as the people in charge (Board, CEO, Technical Director and a succession of managers) had made such a bad job of leaving any sort of lasting legacy from our time in the Premier League, save for a horde of undesirables on huge contracts.
We were not unlucky to go down - it was rank bad management and a whole host of suicidal decisions that left us simply incapable of winning football matches. Then Rowett blew our promotion budget on another bunch of questionable purchases, so we are left with loads of high earning non-players, which means Jones was resigned to getting in loans and freebies to fill out his squad.
|
|
|
|
Post by spitthedog on Aug 26, 2019 19:58:26 GMT
This is like what Lou said today. Too many signings. iMO we even had too many last year. We should have stuck with our core squad and added to it. Particularly fire power. It’s been crazy. Even amongst the squad there’s too many chopping and changings in the match day teams. You need to build an understanding of one another and we just don’t have it. Lou is absolutely right. No manager should need this amount of players, and more players means a more unsettled squad and this reflects on the pitch. Players need to play to get into some kind of form, and half the squad are not playing and the ones who do are playing with different players each week. Its a recipe for disaster. Ominously, Sunderland started their Championship season with a huge squad. |
|
|
|
Post by ursemboys on Aug 26, 2019 19:59:07 GMT
jones made wholesale changes at Luton going into his first full season there and it worked for him, it’s had the opposite effect here, we’ve got worse. It took quite a while for it to click at Luton,he needs time, we are not has bad has some make out,Jones will sort it out its 5 games in with virtually a new side. |
|
|
|
Post by stokeyank on Aug 26, 2019 20:02:47 GMT
Except this all started well before the whole sale changes came. It's nearly three years since we saw the beginning of the downward slide. There is some sort of deeper rooted issue in the core of the club. Call it attitude, identity or whatever you like, changes to players and coaches have not fixed it.
What exactly the issue is I cannot say for sure but it certainty seems like some of the people at the club are dragging it down. These people could be anywhere from the owners, to the front office, to a set of players.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 20:05:33 GMT
Except this all started well before the whole sale changes came. It's nearly three years since we saw the beginning of the downward slide. There is some sort of deeper rooted issue in the core of the club. Call it attitude, identity or whatever you like, changes to players and coaches have not fixed it. What exactly the issue is I cannot say for sure but it certainty seems like some of the people at the club are dragging it down. These people could be anywhere from the owners, to the front office, to a set of players. It’s the steward at block 21. Always thought he looked a bit dodgy. |
|
|
|
Post by philm87 on Aug 26, 2019 20:17:43 GMT
Yeah I think that is a massive part of the problem we now face. Quite unusual to throw a team together so quickly and for them to actually function effectively as a cohesive unit, regardless of individual ability. Look at Fulham last year.
Our lot have additional pressure, expectation and negative energy they wouldn't usually have. We are punishing the current group of players for the mistakes of Wimmer, Imbula and so on. New players should get a clean slate, but anyone who joins us now is burdened with all our previous baggage. It is a heavy weight to carry.
Furthermore, I think we should question these 'deep issues' theories. People like simple answers and simple solutions. It would be so fucking simple, and so fucking convenient, if there is one single issue that explains our predicament. A nice friendly monocausal explanation. Arguments like we are 'rotten to the core' are just a load of guff. What the fuck is 'the core'? We are a football club not a fucking apple. Is sounds nice to say when you are depressed, but it is the pondering of a gobshite.
It is more likely that we face several different issues of varying intensity, and it is the combined impact of these that leaves us where we are. It is also in my opinion quite likely that those factors that contributed to us getting relegated are not all the same factors that are causing us to struggle at the bottom of the Championship. It is not as if we can trace everything to a single source. If you could, then just sacking Cartwright or whoever would fix it, but it clearly won't. The world, and football, is much more complicated than that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gods on Aug 26, 2019 21:00:57 GMT
So far we have people questioning everything from the owners to the tea lady, but is the issue a bit more simple than we think, something that hasn't been mentioned? This is a list of all senior players that have a squad number. | Player | Time at Club | | Jack Butland | 6 years | | Stephen Ward | < 1 month | | Joe Allen | 3 years | | Liam Lindsay | 2 months | | Danny Batth | 7 months | | Tom Ince | 1 year | | Peter Etebo | 1 year | | Sam Vokes | 7 months | | James McClean | 1 year | | Carter Vickers | < 1 month | | Tommy Smith | 2 months | | BMI | 3 years | | Adam Davies | 2 months | | Ryan Shawcross | 11 years | | Lee Gregory | 2 months | | Scott Hogan | < 1 month | | Sam Clucas | 1 year | | Jordan Cousins | 2 months | | Nick Powell | 2 months | | Mark Duffy | < 1 month | | Adam Federici | 1 year | | Ryan Woods | 1 year | | Badou N'Diaye | 17 months |
To say the entire squad is a bit transient and lucid is a bit of an understatement and I think it's easier to see when it is wrote down, even though most of us are intelligent enough to realise that the players just haven't been together that long, coupled with a change in manager. Could this be a huge part of our confidence issues, in that the players don't really know each other that well to have confidence in each other in the first place? Of the 5 players on the list that have been with us for more than 1 year (Jack, Joe, Ryan, BMI and Badou) all are either dropped, injured or on the naughty step. Hence we took on Leeds with no one who has been with us for more than 1 year! I guess it is partly an inevitable symptom of the fact we are on our 3rd manager since Mark Hughes left 18 months ago and of course they all want their own team. We went bat shit crazy this summer and signed 10 lower league journeymen we didn't really need. I would have gone for 5 better players instead in key positions and tried to marry them up with Hughes and Rowett's men in the form of Jack, Joe, Badou, BMI, Ince, Mclean, Afobe and of course Erik Pieters who we never should have let go. In fact I'd even consider Kev Wimmer who is better than the centre backs we currently have. I think that would be a far better team than the Vale'esque outfit we sent to their death against Leeds United. Whoever does come in to replace Nathan won't get another new team so it needs to a sensible and mature mediator willing to wipe the slate clean and give everyone a fair chance whatever their heritage. A simple system that everyone can understand would help too. |
|
|
|
Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 26, 2019 21:05:33 GMT
I'm not having this as a reason tbh, QPR did the same and they've managed to pick up points.
|
|
|
|
Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 26, 2019 21:06:47 GMT
It may also explain why we feel so bewildered as fans. These players are all so new we don’t have any real affinity with them. Of course we will support them as they are wearing the shirt but there is no history anymore. New players are exciting but this has been far too much. I’m sure the connection will build over time. I get that feeling as well, it’s odd, it’s like watching a team who’ve showed up without their kit so someone has lent them a load of stoke shirts to play in. He said himself it took 6 months at Luton for it to start clicking properly. |
|
|
|
Post by tony1234 on Aug 26, 2019 21:09:36 GMT
So far we have people questioning everything from the owners to the tea lady, but is the issue a bit more simple than we think, something that hasn't been mentioned? This is a list of all senior players that have a squad number. | Player | Time at Club | | Jack Butland | 6 years | | Stephen Ward | < 1 month | | Joe Allen | 3 years | | Liam Lindsay | 2 months | | Danny Batth | 7 months | | Tom Ince | 1 year | | Peter Etebo | 1 year | | Sam Vokes | 7 months | | James McClean | 1 year | | Carter Vickers | < 1 month | | Tommy Smith | 2 months | | BMI | 3 years | | Adam Davies | 2 months | | Ryan Shawcross | 11 years | | Lee Gregory | 2 months | | Scott Hogan | < 1 month | | Sam Clucas | 1 year | | Jordan Cousins | 2 months | | Nick Powell | 2 months | | Mark Duffy | < 1 month | | Adam Federici | 1 year | | Ryan Woods | 1 year | | Badou N'Diaye | 17 months |
To say the entire squad is a bit transient and lucid is a bit of an understatement and I think it's easier to see when it is wrote down, even though most of us are intelligent enough to realise that the players just haven't been together that long, coupled with a change in manager. Could this be a huge part of our confidence issues, in that the players don't really know each other that well to have confidence in each other in the first place? Its a great observation. And it explains the link between squad and performance. There's also a thought that you ask "why?" (at least) five times to get to the real cause of something. Q1. Why do we have so many new players. A. Because the club believed many changes were needed to the PL team - due to their ages, profile or character - but the board believed that the first manager to assemble this new team failed to build a good enough one, which meant a second manager was bought in and allowed to assemble a second new team 1/2 a season later. Q2. Why did he (Rowett) fail to build a good enough team? A. Option a) he bought the wrong players, b) he bought too many players, c) he did get a good enough team - but he wasn't given long enough to bed them in, d) the players were good enough, but distractions were created by having to keep disruptive characters...??? Q3. Why did he buy the wrong players/too many players/not get long enough/not get rid of bad eggs? A. I'd suggest for any of these, one explanation is that the management team and board were not working as one, to a common goal, with a common understanding of the causes of the problems. Q4. Now why might that happen? A. Option a) the manager is incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions, b) the Board is incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions Q5. Why have we either got a manager or a board incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions. A. Because we have a board incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 21:11:13 GMT
I'm not having this as a reason tbh, QPR did the same and they've managed to pick up points. QPR only brought in 5 last season and 5 the season before. We brought in around 11 under Rowett and 11 the season before as we were relegated. All in all we've brought in over 30 new footballers in 3 seasons. It all adds up surely? |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 21:16:14 GMT
So far we have people questioning everything from the owners to the tea lady, but is the issue a bit more simple than we think, something that hasn't been mentioned? This is a list of all senior players that have a squad number. | Player | Time at Club | | Jack Butland | 6 years | | Stephen Ward | < 1 month | | Joe Allen | 3 years | | Liam Lindsay | 2 months | | Danny Batth | 7 months | | Tom Ince | 1 year | | Peter Etebo | 1 year | | Sam Vokes | 7 months | | James McClean | 1 year | | Carter Vickers | < 1 month | | Tommy Smith | 2 months | | BMI | 3 years | | Adam Davies | 2 months | | Ryan Shawcross | 11 years | | Lee Gregory | 2 months | | Scott Hogan | < 1 month | | Sam Clucas | 1 year | | Jordan Cousins | 2 months | | Nick Powell | 2 months | | Mark Duffy | < 1 month | | Adam Federici | 1 year | | Ryan Woods | 1 year | | Badou N'Diaye | 17 months |
To say the entire squad is a bit transient and lucid is a bit of an understatement and I think it's easier to see when it is wrote down, even though most of us are intelligent enough to realise that the players just haven't been together that long, coupled with a change in manager. Could this be a huge part of our confidence issues, in that the players don't really know each other that well to have confidence in each other in the first place? Its a great observation. And it explains the link between squad and performance. There's also a thought that you ask "why?" (at least) five times to get to the real cause of something. Q1. Why do we have so many new players. A. Because the club believed many changes were needed to the PL team - due to their ages, profile or character - but the board believed that the first manager to assemble this new team failed to build a good enough one, which meant a second manager was bought in and allowed to assemble a second new team 1/2 a season later. Q2. Why did he (Rowett) fail to build a good enough team? A. Option a) he bought the wrong players, b) he bought too many players, c) he did get a good enough team - but he wasn't given long enough to bed them in, d) the players were good enough, but distractions were created by having to keep disruptive characters...??? Q3. Why did he buy the wrong players/too many players/not get long enough/not get rid of bad eggs? A. I'd suggest for any of these, one explanation is that the management team and board were not working as one, to a common goal, with a common understanding of the causes of the problems. Q4. Now why might that happen? A. Option a) the manager is incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions, b) the Board is incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions Q5. Why have we either got a manager or a board incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions. A. Because we have a board incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions. I would add the manager isn’t used to handling an extensive transfer budget as well to that. Why buy Afobe to play as a loan striker? Rowett for me was like a kid in a sweet shop - players he and his team had admired but there didn’t seem to be a coherent plan. |
|
|
|
Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 26, 2019 21:16:43 GMT
I'm not having this as a reason tbh, QPR did the same and they've managed to pick up points. QPR only brought in 5 last season and 5 the season before. We brought in around 11 under Rowett and 11 the season before as we were relegated. All in all we've brought in over 30 new footballers in 3 seasons. It all adds up surely? It probably doesn't help and you could be right but a lot has been down to individual errors this season and its happening over and over again, I'll be honest I haven't got a clue what the problem is and why they aren't even doing the basics I just can't figure it out at all. |
|
|
|
Post by danceswithclams on Aug 26, 2019 21:18:13 GMT
Except this all started well before the whole sale changes came. It's nearly three years since we saw the beginning of the downward slide. There is some sort of deeper rooted issue in the core of the club. Call it attitude, identity or whatever you like, changes to players and coaches have not fixed it. What exactly the issue is I cannot say for sure but it certainty seems like some of the people at the club are dragging it down. These people could be anywhere from the owners, to the front office, to a set of playersIt's that rude, miserable old cunt in the ticket office. Sack him off and all will come good, you mark my words. |
|
|
|
Post by tony1234 on Aug 26, 2019 21:22:14 GMT
Its a great observation. And it explains the link between squad and performance. There's also a thought that you ask "why?" (at least) five times to get to the real cause of something. Q1. Why do we have so many new players. A. Because the club believed many changes were needed to the PL team - due to their ages, profile or character - but the board believed that the first manager to assemble this new team failed to build a good enough one, which meant a second manager was bought in and allowed to assemble a second new team 1/2 a season later. Q2. Why did he (Rowett) fail to build a good enough team? A. Option a) he bought the wrong players, b) he bought too many players, c) he did get a good enough team - but he wasn't given long enough to bed them in, d) the players were good enough, but distractions were created by having to keep disruptive characters...??? Q3. Why did he buy the wrong players/too many players/not get long enough/not get rid of bad eggs? A. I'd suggest for any of these, one explanation is that the management team and board were not working as one, to a common goal, with a common understanding of the causes of the problems. Q4. Now why might that happen? A. Option a) the manager is incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions, b) the Board is incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions Q5. Why have we either got a manager or a board incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions. A. Because we have a board incapable of diagnosing issues and solutions. I would add the manager isn’t used to handling an extensive transfer budget as well to that. Why buy Afobe to play as a loan striker? Rowett for me was like a kid in a sweet shop - players he and his team had admired but there didn’t seem to be a coherent plan. Yes, agreed. It must do something to the brain to get 50m to spend, especially in the Championship! "Hughes' Law" - The more money you are given, the more you will waste. |
|
|
|
Post by serpico on Aug 26, 2019 21:28:51 GMT
I get that feeling as well, it’s odd, it’s like watching a team who’ve showed up without their kit so someone has lent them a load of stoke shirts to play in. He said himself it took 6 months at Luton for it to start clicking properly. All very well but he can’t afford to keep getting beat by 2-3 goals per game whilst he waits for it to click or he won’t get 6 more games let alone 6 months. |
|
|
|
Post by stokerstayinup on Aug 26, 2019 21:34:24 GMT
So far we have people questioning everything from the owners to the tea lady, but is the issue a bit more simple than we think, something that hasn't been mentioned? This is a list of all senior players that have a squad number. | Player | Time at Club | | Jack Butland | 6 years | | Stephen Ward | < 1 month | | Joe Allen | 3 years | | Liam Lindsay | 2 months | | Danny Batth | 7 months | | Tom Ince | 1 year | | Peter Etebo | 1 year | | Sam Vokes | 7 months | | James McClean | 1 year | | Carter Vickers | < 1 month | | Tommy Smith | 2 months | | BMI | 3 years | | Adam Davies | 2 months | | Ryan Shawcross | 11 years | | Lee Gregory | 2 months | | Scott Hogan | < 1 month | | Sam Clucas | 1 year | | Jordan Cousins | 2 months | | Nick Powell | 2 months | | Mark Duffy | < 1 month | | Adam Federici | 1 year | | Ryan Woods | 1 year | | Badou N'Diaye | 17 months |
To say the entire squad is a bit transient and lucid is a bit of an understatement and I think it's easier to see when it is wrote down, even though most of us are intelligent enough to realise that the players just haven't been together that long, coupled with a change in manager. Could this be a huge part of our confidence issues, in that the players don't really know each other that well to have confidence in each other in the first place? Of the 5 players on the list that have been with us for more than 1 year (Jack, Joe, Ryan, BMI and Badou) all are either dropped, injured or on the naughty step. Hence we took on Leeds with no one who has been with us for more than 1 year! I guess it is partly an inevitable symptom of the fact we are on our 3rd manager since Mark Hughes left 18 months ago and of course they all want their own team. We went bat shit crazy this summer and signed 10 lower league journeymen we didn't really need. I would have gone for 5 better players instead in key positions and tried to marry them up with Hughes and Rowett's men in the form of Jack, Joe, Badou, BMI, Ince, Mclean, Afobe and of course Erik Pieters who we never should have let go. In fact I'd even consider Kev Wimmer who is better than the centre backs we currently have. I think that would be a far better team than the Vale'esque outfit we sent to their death against Leeds United. Whoever does come in to replace Nathan won't get another new team so it needs to a sensible and mature mediator willing to wipe the slate clean and give everyone a fair chance whatever their heritage. A simple system that everyone can understand would help too. We didn't sign any lower league journeymen. |
|
