samuel32
Youth Player
Jack Clarke's Shorts
Posts: 367
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Post by samuel32 on Aug 19, 2019 8:38:37 GMT
That's 7 goals conceded in 3 games. The opposition look dangerous every time they get in our half. It's individual mistakes that are costing us, but it's also because so feckin open.
Our 4, 4, 2 diamond formation often ends up being a 4, 3, 3 because the player at the top of the diamond doesn't fill in enough to support the defence. The formation leaves our full backs outnumbered, and the guys at the right and left of the diamond trying to cover both the opposition full backs and the midfield runners. In the Derby game, Joe Allen couldn't stop the cross coming in from the winger for the first goal, then for the second goal he didn't track the runner from midfield. Tommy Smith & James McLean have also been culpable in previous games.
So yeah, I admire Jones for his ingenuity and trying something different, but we're bottom of the league. He either needs to tweak his diamond to what he did against Wigan or make sure every fucker knows what they're doing.
Watching our players scampering around aimlessly leaving huge gaps has to stop.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 8:43:25 GMT
Of course we're open, that's the negative to the diamond.
It allows you to overload on the attack but leaves you short on the counter.
Better get used to it
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Post by neddy on Aug 19, 2019 8:51:20 GMT
That’s the worry for me but I thought the difficulty would be down the sides.......I really hadn’t envisaged the runs down the wide open middle we saw against QPR and Derby.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 19, 2019 8:53:17 GMT
Most of the goals we've conceded have been from individual/group mistakes or terrible goalkeeping. As I said on another thread, the diamond was the only reason were practically able to camp in Derby's half for most of the game. Take our chances and we win at a canter.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 19, 2019 8:54:32 GMT
That’s the worry for me but I thought the difficulty would be down the sides.......I really hadn’t envisaged the runs down the wide open middle we saw against QPR and Derby. If you don't track runs or get turned on halfway like we failed to in both of those games you'll lose no matter what formation you play. |
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Post by FrankButcher on Aug 19, 2019 8:56:59 GMT
That’s the worry for me but I thought the difficulty would be down the sides.......I really hadn’t envisaged the runs down the wide open middle we saw against QPR and Derby. If you don't track runs or get turned on halfway like we failed to in both of those games you'll lose no matter what formation you play. All 3 games so far in the league our defending has been piss poor and static far too easy for any team to get in behind the defence. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 8:58:26 GMT
We're conceding far less chances than we're creating which suggests that the system itself is working.
Clearly though we need to be more clinical like the teams we've played so far have.....
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 19, 2019 9:00:34 GMT
We're conceding far less chances than we're creating which suggests that the system itself is working. Clearly though we need to be more clinical like the teams we've played so far have..... We're near the top of most positive metrics and models I've seen, and whilst people who say it means fuck all are partially right; we're bottom of the league. It does suggest as you say the reason we're struggling is not to do with the structure but much rather player mistakes or profligacy. |
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Post by Gods on Aug 19, 2019 9:00:37 GMT
Nathan declared the diamond a great success in his Derby post match interview.
So much so he claimed Derby went diamond too in the 2nd half to try to counteract.
He spoke enthusiastically of 'diamond on diamond' in the 2nd half very much as a voyeur might speak of 'girl on girl' action , we were in diamond heaven for 45 minutes :-)
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Post by thestatusquo on Aug 19, 2019 9:02:52 GMT
Teams are and will exploit our lack of width
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 9:29:20 GMT
We're conceding far less chances than we're creating which suggests that the system itself is working. Clearly though we need to be more clinical like the teams we've played so far have..... Conceding less chances but more goals ! |
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Post by lordb on Aug 19, 2019 9:33:26 GMT
We're conceding far less chances than we're creating which suggests that the system itself is working. Clearly though we need to be more clinical like the teams we've played so far have..... Conceding less chances but more goals ! Two down to the keeper QPR second was down to Clucas switching off Two at Charlton down to Woods going off Derby first was a very good goal - seen Smith and Allen blamed. Not for me, sometimes you have to credit the opposition Derby second, iffy penalty however that (& the subsequent chance Butland saved) were the two that concerned me the most as Derby carved space down the middle very easily. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 9:36:15 GMT
We're conceding far less chances than we're creating which suggests that the system itself is working. Clearly though we need to be more clinical like the teams we've played so far have..... Conceding less chances but more goals ! Obviously. |
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Aug 19, 2019 9:37:36 GMT
That’s the worry for me but I thought the difficulty would be down the sides.......I really hadn’t envisaged the runs down the wide open middle we saw against QPR and Derby. I've never seen a team be so exploited down the middle as we've been these first couple of games....every time a opposition player picks up the ball in the middle and runs forward, it worries the hell out of me!!! Something that desperately needs some work on!!! |
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Post by chiswickpotter on Aug 19, 2019 9:40:50 GMT
Conceding less chances but more goals ! Two down to the keeper QPR second was down to Clucas switching off Two at Charlton down to Woods going off Derby first was a very good goal - seen Smith and Allen blamed. Not for me, sometimes you have to credit the opposition Derby second, iffy penalty however that (& the subsequent chance Butland saved) were the two that concerned me the most as Derby carved space down the middle very easily. First goal v Derby started with Allen being outwitted by Huddleston who is so slow. On the second, Allen didn’t track his man but on both goals, Woods failed to provide the shield to the back four - he doesn’t do the shielding part of CDM at all well. Etebo made a difference as he is more mobile than Allen or Woods. Ince doesn’t do enough defensively at the tip of the diamond, hopefully Powell will or we should revert to 5 at the back for insurance |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 9:44:54 GMT
We're conceding far less chances than we're creating which suggests that the system itself is working. Clearly though we need to be more clinical like the teams we've played so far have..... Thanks for putting this up. I've been banging on about this now for a while and just looking at it graphically like that just hammers it home. It's ridiculous. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 9:46:48 GMT
All of the goals we have conceded were down to a number of players not doing their respective jobs properly except possibly the two that Butland went a bit rogue for. I don’t know why people are blaming individuals. They’ve probably been working on attacking in the diamond a lot and now they need to learn to defend in it.
Additionally we have options in defence - Collins, CCV, Edwards could all come in. We have enough for a back three if we needed and Ward as left back.
Honestly, I get accused of being too negative on this board but there really is no need to be panicking about this just yet.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 9:51:00 GMT
My preference would be for a 3-4-1-2 / 3-5-2 having seen the first few games.
First & foremost - be solid, and build from there.
We are way too open, and good sides/players will take full advantage of it.
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Post by melbournestokie21 on Aug 19, 2019 10:03:43 GMT
Finally playing good, fluid football and people are clamouring to tighten up again
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Post by march4 on Aug 19, 2019 10:36:22 GMT
Wide open st the back.
No team in the division has conceded more.
Bottom of the table.
This is even worse than last season.
Good managers sort both attack and defence not one or the other.
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Post by reddipotter on Aug 19, 2019 10:41:26 GMT
The potential lack of width of the diamond didn't seem to be a problem on Saturday. The big gap straight through the middle was. Jones seemed to suggest in his interview that he'd told the players how to deal with this and they hadn't done it.
On the plus side, I don't remember seeing so many players in the opposition box for years, and the two front men kept close so they could work together. For so long our forwards have been far apart and therefore isolated.
We must stick with this system and let the players become comfortable with it, not keep changing like we've done for the past three or four years.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 19, 2019 10:41:47 GMT
Wide open st the back. No team in the division has conceded more. Bottom of the table. This is even worse than last season. Good managers sort both attack and defence not one or the other. We've conceded the fewest shots in the league, we're not "wide open". As discussed on this thread, what's costing us is players making mistakes in clumps and some shit goalkeeping. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 19, 2019 10:46:47 GMT
The potential lack of width of the diamond didn't seem to be a problem on Saturday. The big gap straight through the middle was. Jones seemed to suggest in his interview that he'd told the players how to deal with this and they hadn't done it. On the plus side, I don't remember seeing so many players in the opposition box for years, and the two front men kept close so they could work together. For so long our forwards have been far apart and therefore isolated. We must stick with this system and let the players become comfortable with it, not keep changing like we've done for the past three or four years. I can see why he's exasperated defensively and with our profligacy up front. Both goals stem from mistakes that are nothing to do with the structure. An over commitment in the middle pulls Allen out and then he can't recover to block the cross in the channel whilst Lindsay gets completely the wrong side. The second Allen is slow to react to his runner as he bombs past him into the box where Smith commits a rash challenge. That's shite if you're playing diamond, 5-3-2 or 6-4-0. You're spot on going forwards, Woods recycling the ball 10 yards into their half was the main cause of it, sustained pressure and we should have put away our chances. It's frustrating. Especially considering we put in nearly 40 crosses and conceded around 11-12. The problems are in the channels, particularly with Allen who is badly out of form and some poor positional play from our CBs. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 10:52:44 GMT
The potential lack of width of the diamond didn't seem to be a problem on Saturday. The big gap straight through the middle was. Jones seemed to suggest in his interview that he'd told the players how to deal with this and they hadn't done it. On the plus side, I don't remember seeing so many players in the opposition box for years, and the two front men kept close so they could work together. For so long our forwards have been far apart and therefore isolated. We must stick with this system and let the players become comfortable with it, not keep changing like we've done for the past three or four years. Etebo will be a big part of the diamond working, time to unleash him at Preston.... |
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Post by daveandeddy on Aug 19, 2019 10:53:14 GMT
Wide open st the back. No team in the division has conceded more. Bottom of the table. This is even worse than last season. Good managers sort both attack and defence not one or the other. what do you reckon March ?? Tony back?
Give me this evolving footy week on week and I will be more than happy.... The points will come along with the goals but we gotta keep our nerve
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 19, 2019 10:56:03 GMT
Wide open st the back. No team in the division has conceded more. Bottom of the table. This is even worse than last season. Good managers sort both attack and defence not one or the other. what do you reckon March ?? Tony back?
Give me this evolving footy week on week and I will be more than happy.... The points will come along with the goals but we gotta keep our nerve
The reason Boro bottled promotion is that they scored just 49 goals down from 67 in 17-18. If we're applying "he sorts out both ends" criteria, Tony fails. |
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Post by adi on Aug 19, 2019 11:10:14 GMT
That’s the worry for me but I thought the difficulty would be down the sides.......I really hadn’t envisaged the runs down the wide open middle we saw against QPR and Derby. If you think about it, if your attacking mid doesn’t track back it leaves 1 DM whereas with 4-4-2 you generally have two midfielders inside. It’s up to the attacking mid to drop, and the two wide mids to pick up and fullbacks. It requires more teamwork and communication which I think we may be lacking right now. Just my opinion of course. |
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Post by supersimonstainrod on Aug 19, 2019 11:45:36 GMT
We're conceding far less chances than we're creating which suggests that the system itself is working. Clearly though we need to be more clinical like the teams we've played so far have..... Thanks for putting this up. I've been banging on about this now for a while and just looking at it graphically like that just hammers it home. It's ridiculous. I think there will always be an element of vulnerability about us,given that NJ wants us to play on the front foot,high tempo,committing people forward in squeezing space and trying to force the opposition into making mistakes and concede possession much nearer to their own goal,we'll be vulnerable to a punt over the top or quick breakaway etc. That's the trade off in the risk/reward game he's trying to cultivate. I expected the better teams would find a way to cope with the tactics and maybe administer a bit of a thumping but defensive errors and profligacy in front of goal are costing us against teams we should be looking to beat. |
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Post by numberounominion on Aug 19, 2019 14:08:50 GMT
it's not his job to be discussing , 12 hour days , prep and structure .
it's his job to produce a team effective at both ends of the pitch
And he is not doing his job
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Post by danceswithclams on Aug 19, 2019 14:14:05 GMT
Where are all these 10-post shithead accounts coming from?
I jokingly suggested on another thread that they were Russian bots, but could they be?
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