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Post by LankyPotter on Aug 22, 2019 9:49:57 GMT
I fully take your point and clearly it would have been the correct thing to do in hindsight. Jones must drop the chancers and that begins with Joe Allen. Allen is another one and no doubt he's not performing but there is a distinction Allen is NOT losing us games Jack is and I'll say it Jack has lost us 3 games. Yes Allen missed a sitter in the Derby game and yes it cost us in the end but it did not lose us the game. Unfortunately a keeper CAN lose a game for you and that's what is going on atm. You can blame outfield players for not winning us a game but by the same token you can blame the keeper for losing us a game, harsh but true. My point on Allen is that I don’t see what his brings to the team, he doesn’t demand the ball and make us tick, he doesn’t attack well and he certainly doesn’t defend well. When he plays we are essentially down to 10 men. The diamond won’t work with him in it, he is unable to get on the ball in the midfield and move us up the pitch by doing so thats why we have to chance on knock downs to get up the pitch. Until he is dropped we won’t succeed, no one can tell me what he does well and he seems to be in the majorities ideal team for the next game. He is the biggest fraud at our club. Majorly dislike him playing for us as you might of guessed.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 22, 2019 10:01:40 GMT
Allen is another one and no doubt he's not performing but there is a distinction Allen is NOT losing us games Jack is and I'll say it Jack has lost us 3 games. Yes Allen missed a sitter in the Derby game and yes it cost us in the end but it did not lose us the game. Unfortunately a keeper CAN lose a game for you and that's what is going on atm. You can blame outfield players for not winning us a game but by the same token you can blame the keeper for losing us a game, harsh but true. My point on Allen is that I don’t see what his brings to the team, he doesn’t demand the ball and make us tick, he doesn’t attack well and he certainly doesn’t defend well. When he plays we are essentially down to 10 men. The diamond won’t work with him in it, he is unable to get on the ball in the midfield and move us up the pitch by doing so thats why we have to chance on knock downs to get up the pitch. Until he is dropped we won’t succeed, no one can tell me what he does well and he seems to be in the majorities ideal team for the next game. He is the biggest fraud at our club. Majorly dislike him playing for us as you might of guessed. Again I agree BUT he's scared to play because he knows every mistake could lead to a goal because Jack's form has imploded. He has no freedom to try because he's constantly playing it safe because he knows the score(no pun intended) we have no last line of defence. He's being limited as are the rest, we've seen it in the games so far. Battering teams pushing forward missing chances then bang losing. Nobody could play under those conditions and the ten outfield players are not confident in relying on their keeper.
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Post by LankyPotter on Aug 22, 2019 10:08:37 GMT
My point on Allen is that I don’t see what his brings to the team, he doesn’t demand the ball and make us tick, he doesn’t attack well and he certainly doesn’t defend well. When he plays we are essentially down to 10 men. The diamond won’t work with him in it, he is unable to get on the ball in the midfield and move us up the pitch by doing so thats why we have to chance on knock downs to get up the pitch. Until he is dropped we won’t succeed, no one can tell me what he does well and he seems to be in the majorities ideal team for the next game. He is the biggest fraud at our club. Majorly dislike him playing for us as you might of guessed. Again I agree BUT he's scared to play because he knows every mistake could lead to a goal because Jack's form has imploded. He has no freedom to try because he's constantly playing it safe because he knows the score(no pun intended) we have no last line of defence. He's being limited as are the rest, we've seen it in the games so far. Battering teams pushing forward missing chances then bang losing. Nobody could play under those conditions and the ten outfield players are not confident in relying on their keeper. Jack has been shit this season and i get what you are saying about the last line of defence but if that is joe allen playing ‘safe’ id hate to see what he is like bing let loose. Absolute liability.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 22, 2019 10:20:51 GMT
Again I agree BUT he's scared to play because he knows every mistake could lead to a goal because Jack's form has imploded. He has no freedom to try because he's constantly playing it safe because he knows the score(no pun intended) we have no last line of defence. He's being limited as are the rest, we've seen it in the games so far. Battering teams pushing forward missing chances then bang losing. Nobody could play under those conditions and the ten outfield players are not confident in relying on their keeper. Jack has been shit this season and i get what you are saying about the last line of defence but if that is joe allen playing ‘safe’ id hate to see what he is like bing let loose. Absolute liability. I think it's all to do with fear of conceding first, I was positive things were getting there but with the caveat that Jack not being selected. The extra reassurance Fed or Davies may give the team could be the spark to bring them out of their shell. There is fear throughout the outfield and being fair we the fans add to that fear of conceding. However if the foundation or base of the spine is none exsistant the whole thing crumbles. QPR, Charlton and PNE were not in the game at ALL until they were handed the game yes it was only for a short time depending when Jack was called on but it's true.
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Post by burberrybassist on Aug 22, 2019 10:30:30 GMT
I feel for the lad. Everyone has a shit time at work, its life.
To get the news about loosing his place in the England squad and then a couple of hours later putting that performance in is going to absolutely kill him. It would anyone.
He needs time off. If it was a physical knock he had taken we would leave him out as a precaution, and I'd say he's taken a massive mental knock and needs to be treated in the same way.
I've said in jest before that the club need to employ a sports psychologist or therapist (we may do for all I know), but I genuinely think we need a bit of guidance and support, as the squad look absolutely shot, even the new signings. Something at the club is very wrong and it's going to take something more than extra coaching to fix.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 10:31:56 GMT
Celtic on loan would have been ideal for him, but they've just announced Fraser Forster is going back there......
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 22, 2019 10:34:16 GMT
Celtic on loan would have been ideal for him, but they've just announced Fraser Forster is going back there...... Brutally honest his form rules him out of a move nobody would want him. That's clear because he's still here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 11:09:33 GMT
The pundits are lining up in support of Butland saying he's a class player and is just going through a rocky spell and should keep his place in the side.
If you don't get dropped for the form Butland is in I don't know when you will.
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Post by luke2u on Aug 22, 2019 11:25:03 GMT
I think yesterday will end his hope of finding a bigger club, at least for this season and maybe next.
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Post by knowingeye on Aug 22, 2019 11:47:43 GMT
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Post by jarhead on Aug 22, 2019 12:00:36 GMT
I feel for the lad. Everyone has a shit time at work, its life. To get the news about loosing his place in the England squad and then a couple of hours later putting that performance in is going to absolutely kill him. It would anyone. He needs time off. If it was a physical knock he had taken we would leave him out as a precaution, and I'd say he's taken a massive mental knock and needs to be treated in the same way. I've said in jest before that the club need to employ a sports psychologist or therapist (we may do for all I know), but I genuinely think we need a bit of guidance and support, as the squad look absolutely shot, even the new signings. Something at the club is very wrong and it's going to take something more than extra coaching to fix. Getting News that you are out of the England squad for countless mistakes in a row shouldn’t really be that hard to take or a surprise. Now getting news that you have a Terminal illness or a relative has is Something that really will get you down, let’s get in the real world here ffs. Should of been dropped after the Qpr Fuck up!
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Post by burberrybassist on Aug 22, 2019 12:22:26 GMT
I feel for the lad. Everyone has a shit time at work, its life. To get the news about loosing his place in the England squad and then a couple of hours later putting that performance in is going to absolutely kill him. It would anyone. He needs time off. If it was a physical knock he had taken we would leave him out as a precaution, and I'd say he's taken a massive mental knock and needs to be treated in the same way. I've said in jest before that the club need to employ a sports psychologist or therapist (we may do for all I know), but I genuinely think we need a bit of guidance and support, as the squad look absolutely shot, even the new signings. Something at the club is very wrong and it's going to take something more than extra coaching to fix. Getting News that you are out of the England squad for countless mistakes in a row shouldn’t really be that hard to take or a surprise. Now getting news that you have a Terminal illness or a relative has is Something that really will get you down, let’s get in the real world here ffs. Should of been dropped after the Qpr Fuck up! That's a really narrow minded and ill informed opinion if you ask me, especially from somebody in the "real world". So you're saying the only thing that's allowed to play on somebodies mind or effect their mental wellbeing is if they receive tragic news? Rediculous, there's a hundred and one reasons people can struggle. It's glaringly obvious that Butland is feeling it, he's a great proven keeper at his best. What he does now is up to him, and I hope he comes back stronger. But that doesn't mean that the club can't be there to support him. Nobody turns shit over night for no reason, and I feel he needs to be rested until he can get to the root of the issue and get it sorted.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 22, 2019 12:31:01 GMT
I feel for the lad. Everyone has a shit time at work, its life. To get the news about loosing his place in the England squad and then a couple of hours later putting that performance in is going to absolutely kill him. It would anyone. He needs time off. If it was a physical knock he had taken we would leave him out as a precaution, and I'd say he's taken a massive mental knock and needs to be treated in the same way. I've said in jest before that the club need to employ a sports psychologist or therapist (we may do for all I know), but I genuinely think we need a bit of guidance and support, as the squad look absolutely shot, even the new signings. Something at the club is very wrong and it's going to take something more than extra coaching to fix. Getting News that you are out of the England squad for countless mistakes in a row shouldn’t really be that hard to take or a surprise. Now getting news that you have a Terminal illness or a relative has is Something that really will get you down, let’s get in the real world here ffs. Should of been dropped after the Qpr Fuck up! Spot on its showing him as delusional and selfish. He's not as good as he thinks he is....
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Post by nik80 on Aug 22, 2019 12:43:07 GMT
Butland’s having a mare but I’m not convinced Jones was right to dig him out after the match. I definitely wouldn’t be dropping him for Davies yet either. I know the manager’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t but I wouldn’t bench him. He needs to right the wrong at home, get it out of his system. Bit more naivety shown from Nathan Jones talking so openly to the national media about one of our players, hear of the moment stuff perhaps but I think if Butland needs talking to (which he does) it needs to be done behind closed doors. Jones should have been a bit more reserved in his answers last night because now the national press are really taking note today, as if Saturday wasn’t pressurised enough. Just another glimpse of the man’s limitations perhaps.
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Post by serpico on Aug 22, 2019 12:47:48 GMT
weve Conceded 10 and 4 of them have been down to butland mistakes, he has to be dropped no matter his reputation.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 22, 2019 12:51:14 GMT
Butland’s having a mare but I’m not convinced Jones was right to dig him out after the match. I definitely wouldn’t be dropping him for Davies yet either. I know the manager’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t but I wouldn’t bench him. He needs to right the wrong at home, get it out of his system. Bit more naivety shown from Nathan Jones talking so openly to the national media about one of our players, hear of the moment stuff perhaps but I think if Butland needs talking to (which he does) it needs to be done behind closed doors. Jones should have been a bit more reserved in his answers last night because now the national press are really taking note today, as if Saturday wasn’t pressurised enough. Just another glimpse of the man’s limitations perhaps. Like he put things right after QPR and Charlton yes let's keep him in and drop him when we're 10points adrift from relegation. I don't recall NJ saying he was completely shit he just said he made errors and was not on the ball. I'll ask this was he really sat on that bus last night expecting to be picked for England? Really??? given his abysmal form was he shocked if he was he's nuts.
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Post by nik80 on Aug 22, 2019 13:07:30 GMT
Butland’s having a mare but I’m not convinced Jones was right to dig him out after the match. I definitely wouldn’t be dropping him for Davies yet either. I know the manager’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t but I wouldn’t bench him. He needs to right the wrong at home, get it out of his system. Bit more naivety shown from Nathan Jones talking so openly to the national media about one of our players, hear of the moment stuff perhaps but I think if Butland needs talking to (which he does) it needs to be done behind closed doors. Jones should have been a bit more reserved in his answers last night because now the national press are really taking note today, as if Saturday wasn’t pressurised enough. Just another glimpse of the man’s limitations perhaps. Like he put things right after QPR and Charlton yes let's keep him in and drop him when we're 10points adrift from relegation. I don't recall NJ saying he was completely shit he just said he made errors and was not on the ball. I'll ask this was he really sat on that bus last night expecting to be picked for England? Really??? given his abysmal form was he shocked if he was he's nuts. I hear what you’re saying, I’m not even going to argue that I think you’re wrong. It has been poor defensively all season and Jack Butland is a big part of that. I don’t think Danny Batth and Liam Lindsay have covered themselves in glory either. Do these guys even have a voice? Leaders my arse 🙄 Getting back to the Butland issue, I suppose it’s a gamble whatever Jones decides to do, let’s say he gives Davies the shirt for Saturday and we get trounced again (as we very well might) then he’s dropped his first choice keeper and the support shut their pants because our reserve is piss poor too. After last night it sounds crazy, I know, but I wouldn’t drop Butland. I’d look at the shower in front of him, Butland’s got zero confidence and he’s got zero confidence in his defenders either, seemingly. Jones didn’t say Butland was shit no, but in my opinion he should have bit his tongue a little more and had “that” conversation with the man himself. He’s gained nothing by speaking like that, I just thought it was a bit naive really. The media love a bit of turmoil, they’ll fucking bury you with it, given half the chance. Jones has opened himself up to that and now he’s damned if does drop Butland, and damned if he doesn’t.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 22, 2019 13:32:00 GMT
Like he put things right after QPR and Charlton yes let's keep him in and drop him when we're 10points adrift from relegation. I don't recall NJ saying he was completely shit he just said he made errors and was not on the ball. I'll ask this was he really sat on that bus last night expecting to be picked for England? Really??? given his abysmal form was he shocked if he was he's nuts. I hear what you’re saying, I’m not even going to argue that I think you’re wrong. It has been poor defensively all season and Jack Butland is a big part of that. I don’t think Danny Batth and Liam Lindsay have covered themselves in glory either. Do these guys even have a voice? Leaders my arse 🙄 Getting back to the Butland issue, I suppose it’s a gamble whatever Jones decides to do, let’s say he gives Davies the shirt for Saturday and we get trounced again (as we very well might) then he’s dropped his first choice keeper and the support shut their pants because our reserve is piss poor too. After last night it sounds crazy, I know, but I wouldn’t drop Butland. I’d look at the shower in front of him, Butland’s got zero confidence and he’s got zero confidence in his defenders either, seemingly. Jones didn’t say Butland was shit no, but in my opinion he should have bit his tongue a little more and had “that” conversation with the man himself. He’s gained nothing by speaking like that, I just thought it was a bit naive really. The media love a bit of turmoil, they’ll fucking bury you with it, given half the chance. Jones has opened himself up to that and now he’s damned if does drop Butland, and damned if he doesn’t. If we do get smashed as long as Davies dunna throw it in his own net he's one up on Jack.
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Post by nik80 on Aug 22, 2019 14:20:02 GMT
I hear what you’re saying, I’m not even going to argue that I think you’re wrong. It has been poor defensively all season and Jack Butland is a big part of that. I don’t think Danny Batth and Liam Lindsay have covered themselves in glory either. Do these guys even have a voice? Leaders my arse 🙄 Getting back to the Butland issue, I suppose it’s a gamble whatever Jones decides to do, let’s say he gives Davies the shirt for Saturday and we get trounced again (as we very well might) then he’s dropped his first choice keeper and the support shut their pants because our reserve is piss poor too. After last night it sounds crazy, I know, but I wouldn’t drop Butland. I’d look at the shower in front of him, Butland’s got zero confidence and he’s got zero confidence in his defenders either, seemingly. Jones didn’t say Butland was shit no, but in my opinion he should have bit his tongue a little more and had “that” conversation with the man himself. He’s gained nothing by speaking like that, I just thought it was a bit naive really. The media love a bit of turmoil, they’ll fucking bury you with it, given half the chance. Jones has opened himself up to that and now he’s damned if does drop Butland, and damned if he doesn’t. If we do get smashed as long as Davies dunna throw it in his own net he's one up on Jack. As I said, I’m not saying you’re wrong; given the mistakes made, it’s more than fair. I just don’t know whether I would and I certainly wouldn’t have sounded off like Jones did after the match. I think he runs the risk of trying to say all the right things because he thinks it’s what we want to hear. It’s all well and good trying to be popular with fans, as long as what you say matches what we watch. Jones promised me a team I was going to be proud of (I’m still waiting Nathan).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 14:30:16 GMT
In fairness to Nathan Jones, Jack has already earned more money than he will ever do. He’s just got married, probably wants to start a family and like it or not, Jack Butland is costing him his job at the minute. I’d be livid too.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 22, 2019 14:34:22 GMT
The pundits are lining up in support of Butland saying he's a class player and is just going through a rocky spell and should keep his place in the side. If you don't get dropped for the form Butland is in I don't know when you will. I very much doubt any of those pundits have watched him week in and week out of for either this season or any previous. Butland has been overrated by pundits for most of his career. He had one good season which unfortunately for him was curtailed while on England duty - but other than that he's enjoyed a higher profile than he's deserved simply because he is English when there have been very few good English goalkeepers about. Pundits may have rated him highly, but clearly managers and scouts at other clubs have not - otherwise he wouldn't still be at Stoke three transfer windows after they have been relegated.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 22, 2019 14:39:48 GMT
In fairness to Nathan Jones, Jack has already earned more money than he will ever do. He’s just got married, probably wants to start a family and like it or not, Jack Butland is costing him his job at the minute. I’d be livid too. Quite right only one person to blame and it's not NJ.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 22, 2019 14:40:55 GMT
The pundits are lining up in support of Butland saying he's a class player and is just going through a rocky spell and should keep his place in the side. If you don't get dropped for the form Butland is in I don't know when you will. And that's why they are what they are clueless clowns. Edit how on earth can you drop Allen, Woods, Batth,Lindsay or anyone given Jack's form.
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Post by Godo on Aug 22, 2019 14:55:07 GMT
I really don't know what the story is with Davies? Why is he not even making the bench, why didn't he play against Wigan? If he can't come in and perform to a higher standard than Jack is doing at the moment then he must be very poor! Jack should be dropped, not least to find out whether the defensive uncertainty is linked to him, but good defenders simply don't concede some of the goals we've conceded e.g corners slowly bouncing across the box! For me the system is shit, we can't pass and move and we need a proper ball winning holding midfielder and left back. Considering our wage bill compared with most of the division frankly our club is an embarrassment.
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Post by numberounominion on Aug 22, 2019 15:03:00 GMT
Butland has been pandered to at Stoke
Something that has helped neither Stoke , or Butland .
The simple fact is , that while he was injured , Lee grant showed himself to be the better keeper .
Nothing to do with malice , liking him , not liking him , social media, this and that .
He is simply should not be here , because he is not as good as the alternative , Lee grant .
the whole thing is so amateur , I can't find a parallel in pro football
though it reminds me a lot of a kids under 8 team , where some other lad goes in goal and does much better than the usual keeper ( who is visiting his nans ) Then when the usual lad comes back from his nans , his dad ( the manager ) puts him straight back in goal again !
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Post by redwhitesingfight on Aug 22, 2019 15:08:02 GMT
Butland has been pandered to at Stoke Something that has helped neither Stoke , or Butland . The simple fact is , that while he was injured , Lee grant showed himself to be the better keeper . Nothing to do with malice , liking him , not liking him , social media, this and that . He is simply should not be here , because he is not as good as the alternative , Lee grant . the whole thing is so amateur , I can't find a parallel in pro football though it reminds me a lot of a kids under 8 team , where some other lad goes in goal and does much better than the usual keeper ( who is visiting his nans ) Then when the usual lad comes back from his nans , his dad ( the manager ) puts him straight back in goal again ! Lee Grant was by far and away a better keeper. Butland should not have walked straight back in after injury. Replace Butland and Allen - we should then at least stand a chance.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 15:11:35 GMT
Butland has been pandered to at Stoke Something that has helped neither Stoke , or Butland . The simple fact is , that while he was injured , Lee grant showed himself to be the better keeper . Nothing to do with malice , liking him , not liking him , social media, this and that . He is simply should not be here , because he is not as good as the alternative , Lee grant . the whole thing is so amateur , I can't find a parallel in pro football though it reminds me a lot of a kids under 8 team , where some other lad goes in goal and does much better than the usual keeper ( who is visiting his nans ) Then when the usual lad comes back from his nans , his dad ( the manager ) puts him straight back in goal again ! Lee Grant was by far and away a better keeper. Butland should not have walked straight back in after injury. Replace Butland and Allen - we should then at least stand a chance. I just read that as replace Butland WITH Allen and you know what I didn’t disagree with you that that might actually be better 😂 you could literally swap the both of them around at the moment and I bet they would be any worse in each other’s positions!
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Post by FrankButcher on Aug 22, 2019 15:57:55 GMT
From reading NJ's comments to the BBC about butland he hasn't got a bloody clue on the mental side of the game or how to treat a player whose mind must be elsewhere...
"I don't know where he must be mentally because there's so much talk about him, but realistically we all have to do our job for Stoke."
You'd think he (NJ) would of tried something before now to try and get to the bottom of the issue with butland by sending him to a sports psychology expert or something and keep it within house instead of airing it to the media.
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Post by jarhead on Aug 22, 2019 16:05:46 GMT
Getting News that you are out of the England squad for countless mistakes in a row shouldn’t really be that hard to take or a surprise. Now getting news that you have a Terminal illness or a relative has is Something that really will get you down, let’s get in the real world here ffs. Should of been dropped after the Qpr Fuck up! That's a really narrow minded and ill informed opinion if you ask me, especially from somebody in the "real world". So you're saying the only thing that's allowed to play on somebodies mind or effect their mental wellbeing is if they receive tragic news? Rediculous, there's a hundred and one reasons people can struggle. It's glaringly obvious that Butland is feeling it, he's a great proven keeper at his best. What he does now is up to him, and I hope he comes back stronger. But that doesn't mean that the club can't be there to support him. Nobody turns shit over night for no reason, and I feel he needs to be rested until he can get to the root of the issue and get it sorted. Sorry for my OPINION on a opinion based Forum! Will ask you next time precious. Butland is playing football BADLY and needs ‘dropping / counselling’ or whatever you want to call it! It’s that simple.
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Post by numpty40 on Aug 22, 2019 16:20:38 GMT
The whole world could see Jack had a shit game last night, it didn't need the manager to go on national TV and give him another kicking.
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