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Post by felonious on Jul 4, 2019 11:31:29 GMT
Interesting article, makes you wonder what's behind it.
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Post by Davef on Jul 4, 2019 11:39:44 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn obviously. That explains why the Plymouth University Conservative Society was suspended by the Tory party.  |
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Post by felonious on Jul 4, 2019 11:43:40 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn obviously. That explains why the Plymouth University Conservative Society was suspended by the Tory party. It was a fair question based on the fact that this generation are possibly the most accepting to date. Perhaps they've been spoonfed on Southpark?
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 4, 2019 13:04:07 GMT
Unfortunately this kind of thing will never be eradicated it's life as wrong as it is.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jul 5, 2019 11:03:15 GMT
With changing boundaries and definitions tightening around what is acceptable or unacceptable speech around a certain chosen people, or the country of Israel, or Zionism, it's no wonder anti-Semitism is increasing, since any criticism of those things is rapidly described as "hate speech".
Cue somebody telling me that the above statement is anti-Semitic. I suppose by the current ludicrous parameters, it is.
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Post by thevoid on Jul 5, 2019 12:39:26 GMT
Oooooh Jeremy Corbyn
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Post by Eggybread on Jul 5, 2019 12:48:39 GMT
I remember thinking about this in my teens and instinctively coming to the conclusion that a two state solution was the only option. I felt that both Jews and Palestinians had right on their side. It was easier back then, because the Palestinian liberation movement was identifiably secular and left wing and some of my friends were off working on the socialist kibbutzim in Israel. I agreed with arguments on both sides. The peace accords came, I supported them. It was an intractable problem, but optimism grew: the world in general, and the Left in particular, was far more disposed to a two state solution.
But everything changed over the years. Encouraged by successive right wing US presidents, the politics of Israel moved further and further to the right. As equally right wing Islamist movements started to grow all over the world, encouraged by the US as ‘warriors against carmewnism’, Israeli strategists recognised the divide-and-rule potential of doing the same thing in the Palestinian territories to split the PLO. They allowed Hamas to grow and thus religion, the source of so many problems and conflicts throughout human history, took on a primary role as the secular Palestinian movement split and Hamas took control in Gaza.
And now we come to the important bit for the subject currently causing so much rancour.
Over the years the UK Jewish community has moved to the Right. It has become far less Bundist and far more Zionist. Support for Israel - in many cases unconditional support - has rocketed at a time when the policies of the Israeli Government have become more and more right wing. There is a definite strand which now seeks to paint all criticism of the state of Israel as anti Semitic, which leads to a ridiculous situation where Zionist Jews accuse Bundist Jews of being antisemites, as has happened in the Jewish Labour Movement/ Jewish Voice for Labour row.
Vast numbers of those in the Labour Party accused of antisemitism are themselves Jewish. I know some personally. They’re Leftist Bundists. Like many of the Warsaw Ghetto heroes. Like many who died fighting fascism in Europe. Calling them antisemites is a disgusting slur.
The fact that the majority of the Jewish community in the U.K. have chosen to support right wing definitions of Jewishness doesn’t make them right. 72% vote Tory apparently. We don’t let Tories define anything else for us, why should they define antisemitism?
As a party committed to anti racism AND socialism Labour should be listening to the Bundists, not the Zionists. And in the internal debate about antisemitism we should be listening to Jewish Voice for Labour, at least as much as the Jewish Labour Movement. Although ultimately what they need to do is what the ghetto fighters did. Put aside their differences and unite for the common good.
And yet there IS antisemitism in the Labour Party, mostly based around the Israel-Palestine issue (‘They use the Holocaust as an excuse’) clueless tropes about the Rothschilds or, in the case of a small element from the Muslim community, inter-faith prejudice handed down through the generations - exactly the sort of stuff a secular socialist political party should oppose at every turn.
It’s simple really. We need to expose the Likudite Tory Zionists who deliberately conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism for their own political ends. We need to expose the antisemites who appear to think every banker is Jewish and that a Rothschild agent called Hymie Iceberg sank the Titanic.
Above all we need to do all we can to establish a secure, peaceful future for both communities in the Israel-Palestine conflict. Because that is the heart of the issue. Like it or not.
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Post by danceswithclams on Jul 5, 2019 14:57:52 GMT
I'm going to open a footwear emporium in Tennessee that caters for followers of Judaism
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Chattanooga Jew Shoes
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Post by bathstoke on Jul 5, 2019 15:57:35 GMT
As long as They continue with their 3k year old land grab policy, I can’t see it relenting any time soon...
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Post by thevoid on Jul 5, 2019 17:15:06 GMT
As long as They continue with their 3k year old land grab policy, I can’t see it relenting any time soon... What's that got to do with British Jews who've never set foot in Israel? Guilty by association? |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 5, 2019 17:24:03 GMT
Whether you like it or not there is a very strong pro Palestinian group within the Labour Party which detest Israel.
This is where the anti-semitic shit is coming from.
Taking sides is easy.
It solves nothing.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Jul 5, 2019 18:17:07 GMT
Whether you like it or not there is a very strong pro Palestinian group within the Labour Party which detest Israel. This is where the anti-semitic shit is coming from. Taking sides is easy. It solves nothing. I thought it was the Zionist Jews who were to blame for all this? 😜 |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2019 19:52:17 GMT
As long as They continue with their 3k year old land grab policy, I can’t see it relenting any time soon... Thought you were talking about the EU then ☺ |
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Post by felonious on Jul 5, 2019 20:00:10 GMT
As long as They continue with their 3k year old land grab policy, I can’t see it relenting any time soon... Thought you were talking about the EU then ☺ Just wait til they've got an army.  |
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Post by bathstoke on Jul 5, 2019 20:01:00 GMT
As long as They continue with their 3k year old land grab policy, I can’t see it relenting any time soon... What's that got to do with British Jews who've never set foot in Israel? Guilty by association? Well that’s a 1st, Void virtue signaling. Bet you got a nose bleed from that lofty height |
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Post by crapslinger on Jul 5, 2019 21:54:52 GMT
Thought you were talking about the EU then ☺ Just wait til they've got an army. Including Germans and Italians that should go well, will the goosestep be introduced as the march of preference for the EU army |
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Post by bathstoke on Jul 6, 2019 6:12:46 GMT
After 2000yrs of exile & the breakup of the Ottoman Empire after WWI, We(after lots of pressure & acts of terrorism against army personnel by Zionist)handed over Israel to the Jews for self rule.
Does this make us like a modern day Moses!?!
“Where’s my staff, I’ve got some seas to part”🌊
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Post by thevoid on Jul 6, 2019 6:46:45 GMT
What's that got to do with British Jews who've never set foot in Israel? Guilty by association? Well that’s a 1st, Void virtue signaling. Bet you got a nose bleed from that lofty height No answer then? And it's great up here, you can see all sorts 👍 |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Jul 6, 2019 6:58:56 GMT
So when antisemitism seems to be on the rise, and people quote figures to prove it, these people and the figures are questioned or dismissed. But when "hate crimes" go up after Brexit the media and people on the left don't ask questions but quote the figures as gospel? I get it, now.
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Post by blackpoolred on Jul 6, 2019 7:19:00 GMT
With changing boundaries and definitions tightening around what is acceptable or unacceptable speech around a certain chosen people, or the country of Israel, or Zionism, it's no wonder anti-Semitism is increasing, since any criticism of those things is rapidly described as "hate speech". Cue somebody telling me that the above statement is anti-Semitic. I suppose by the current ludicrous parameters, it is. No I think you are quite correct. It is ok to slate certain religions, but not cricket when it comes to calling out the atrocities that the richest one is performing. The actions of Israel are undefendable and what they are doing is plain wrong and needs calling out. Just because they have the backing of the richest country in the world and the majority of the major news outlets does not make it right. The youth of today, thank god, are not as easily brainwashed as their parents and grandparents and generally have a more balanced view and can see right through propaganda - so there is a hope for a brighter future. The tide is changing, albeit slowly, but there will come a time when the actions of countries like Israel will get more air time and attention than a burning church in France. |
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Post by blackpoolred on Jul 6, 2019 7:32:25 GMT
Whether you like it or not there is a very strong pro Palestinian group within the Labour Party which detest Israel. This is where the anti-semitic shit is coming from. Taking sides is easy. It solves nothing. It is not anti anything. It is calling out a nation/religion for performing atrocities and yes it should be very easy to take sides on this one. If America/UK took the correct side it may solve the problem. Israel has to stop what it is doing - until then people will refuse to turn a blind eye and keep calling them out - if they don’t like it then it is tough |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 6, 2019 9:43:29 GMT
Whether you like it or not there is a very strong pro Palestinian group within the Labour Party which detest Israel. This is where the anti-semitic shit is coming from. Taking sides is easy. It solves nothing. It is not anti anything. It is calling out a nation/religion for performing atrocities and yes it should be very easy to take sides on this one. If America/UK took the correct side it may solve the problem. Israel has to stop what it is doing - until then people will refuse to turn a blind eye and keep calling them out - if they don’t like it then it is tough I wouldn't disagree with any of your comments. My point is that Labour used to be Pro-Israeli but sympathetic towards Palestinians. Now it's Pro-Palestinian with a hatred of Israel from a fair few. Both sides interpret things differently And although there has been a massive overaction from Israeli Military Forces the Palestinians have sometimes deliberately provoked that reaction for their own Political purposes. And people who don't know the first fucking thing about the Israeli/Palestinian problem are using it as an excuse to commit acts of violence and aggression towards innocent people. As though that solved anything. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Jul 6, 2019 10:07:04 GMT
With changing boundaries and definitions tightening around what is acceptable or unacceptable speech around a certain chosen people, or the country of Israel, or Zionism, it's no wonder anti-Semitism is increasing, since any criticism of those things is rapidly described as "hate speech". Cue somebody telling me that the above statement is anti-Semitic. I suppose by the current ludicrous parameters, it is. No I think you are quite correct. It is ok to slate certain religions, but not cricket when it comes to calling out the atrocities that the richest one is performing. The actions of Israel are undefendable and what they are doing is plain wrong and needs calling out. Just because they have the backing of the richest country in the world and the majority of the major news outlets does not make it right. The youth of today, thank god, are not as easily brainwashed as their parents and grandparents and generally have a more balanced view and can see right through propaganda - so there is a hope for a brighter future. The tide is changing, albeit slowly, but there will come a time when the actions of countries like Israel will get more air time and attention than a burning church in France. The youth of today seem easier to brainwash than ever. |
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Post by bathstoke on Jul 6, 2019 10:12:01 GMT
With changing boundaries and definitions tightening around what is acceptable or unacceptable speech around a certain chosen people, or the country of Israel, or Zionism, it's no wonder anti-Semitism is increasing, since any criticism of those things is rapidly described as "hate speech". Cue somebody telling me that the above statement is anti-Semitic. I suppose by the current ludicrous parameters, it is. No I think you are quite correct. It is ok to slate certain religions, but not cricket when it comes to calling out the atrocities that the richest one is performing. The actions of Israel are undefendable and what they are doing is plain wrong and needs calling out. Just because they have the backing of the richest country in the world and the majority of the major news outlets does not make it right. The youth of today, thank god, are not as easily brainwashed as their parents and grandparents and generally have a more balanced view and can see right through propaganda - so there is a hope for a brighter future. The tide is changing, albeit slowly, but there will come a time when the actions of countries like Israel will get more air time and attention than a burning church in France. The thought of a overly aggressive nation, appropriating and annexing disputed neighbours lands to expand their own. Where have I heard that one before🤔 |
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Post by felonious on Jul 6, 2019 13:42:36 GMT
No I think you are quite correct. It is ok to slate certain religions, but not cricket when it comes to calling out the atrocities that the richest one is performing. The actions of Israel are undefendable and what they are doing is plain wrong and needs calling out. Just because they have the backing of the richest country in the world and the majority of the major news outlets does not make it right. The youth of today, thank god, are not as easily brainwashed as their parents and grandparents and generally have a more balanced view and can see right through propaganda - so there is a hope for a brighter future. The tide is changing, albeit slowly, but there will come a time when the actions of countries like Israel will get more air time and attention than a burning church in France. The thought of a overly aggressive nation, appropriating and annexing disputed neighbours lands to expand their own. Where have I heard that one before🤔 Not a very good analogy. I can't remember Germany being attacked by it's neighbours nor being recognised by it's neighbours either.
Whether the state of Israel should have been imposed on the area in the first place is a different matter.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jul 6, 2019 14:27:56 GMT
The thought of a overly aggressive nation, appropriating and annexing disputed neighbours lands to expand their own. Where have I heard that one before🤔 Not a very good analogy. I can't remember Germany being attacked by it's neighbours nor being recognised by it's neighbours either.
Whether the state of Israel should have been imposed on the area in the first place is a different matter.
Germany in the 1930s would say that it WAS attacked by its neighbours and that its land claims in places like the Sudetenland were NOT recognised. It's an inaccurate historical analogy for various reasons, just neither of the ones you've highlighted  |
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Post by felonious on Jul 6, 2019 14:36:18 GMT
Not a very good analogy. I can't remember Germany being attacked by it's neighbours nor being recognised by it's neighbours either.
Whether the state of Israel should have been imposed on the area in the first place is a different matter.
Germany in the 1930s would say that it WAS attacked by its neighbours and that its land claims in places like the Sudetenland were NOT recognised. It's an inaccurate historical analogy for various reasons, just neither of the ones you've highlighted But surely those neighbours were the subject of a previous attack earlier in the century. The resulting treaty and it's borders may have been the subject of an ongoing dispute but Germany signed that treaty. Who was attacking Germany in the 1930s?
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Post by bathstoke on Jul 6, 2019 14:41:57 GMT
The thought of a overly aggressive nation, appropriating and annexing disputed neighbours lands to expand their own. Where have I heard that one before🤔 Not a very good analogy. I can't remember Germany being attacked by it's neighbours nor being recognised by it's neighbours either. Whether the state of Israel should have been imposed on the area in the first place is a different matter.
Israel was born out of both WW’s oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/6476668/thread |
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Post by felonious on Jul 6, 2019 16:20:55 GMT
Not a very good analogy. I can't remember Germany being attacked by it's neighbours nor being recognised by it's neighbours either. Whether the state of Israel should have been imposed on the area in the first place is a different matter.
Israel was born out of both WW’s oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/6476668/threadGood Lord I thought you were going to quote some intelligent authority on the subject |
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Post by bathstoke on Jul 6, 2019 16:53:15 GMT
Good Lord I thought you were going to quote some intelligent authority on the subject I don’t need to quote others when I have my own $#!t to spout |
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