Malcolm Clarke on FIFA/UEFA plan homegrown players

[knowingeye]

www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/28/sports/SOCCER.php

Good news for English football being ruined by imports.

And from Sir Trev of the FA re English youth development

news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/7423065.stm

[lordeffinghamhunt]

not all that knowingeye, The EU don't share in their desires


news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/7421348.stm

[knowingeye]

I'm in the midst of a UK High Court case chasing over £15million claim, although supported by EU law, but the UK simply choses to ignore it, like most other EU countries, so let's not get too worried by the EU v FIFA. We all know this will end up in court and the lawyers will be the ultimate victors taking their exorbitant fees.

[Deleted]

This was a rubbish idea when it was much less rubbish than it is now. Originally it was x-number-of-foreigners employed by a club. But good old Sepp was never going to get that one past the EU (he'll struggle enough with this). And so he nerfed it, making it five-foreigners-only in a team. (I assume that now means "on the pitch" or in the "matchday 18").

So ...

every club in the PL will have to field six English players
How many really good English players are there? Good enough to make the England team? Let's say there are 40 of them (seems a bit high to me, but anyway)
Within a couple of years (max) Which clubs will these 40 players play for?

That's right, they'll all play for the Big 4

Because English Players are now the resistriction - You must field 6 of them.

What this will do is widen the gap even further between the top-4 and everyone else. Which six English players do you think we'll be left with? And never mind us ... What about Villa/Spurs/Man-City/Pompy? Not going to be many good English lads left for the middle-tier of clubs, is there!?

Mr Blatter couldn't tell a good idea from a packing crate!

ah

[joeyb09]

Personally i think it's about time something was done about this. Plus Arsenal will be fukd and listening to Wenger moan about that will make me a very happy man!!!!!!!!

[knowingeye]

So when will this invasion stop? When England are represented by players from mainland Europe because under EU law you couldn't stop it!

[sheikhmomo]

Of course the best result of this if it came in, is that it would see Arsenal slide down the table and Arsene Wenger sacked.

[knowingeye]

May 29, 2008 9:16:08 GMT sheikhmomo said:

Of course the best result of this if it came in, is that it would see Arsenal slide down the table and Arsene Wenger sacked.

Foreign club owners, foreign managers, foreign players. Do you see the common trend?

At least Stoke City bucks this trend in most areas.

[WurstBoy]

what about British players?

or do they have to be English?

and what about Cardiff, Swansea etc? Welsh teams playing in the English league - do they have to field English or Welsh (or British) players?

[cousindupree]

I am a big supporter of this proposal. Its no coincidence that the national team's success has declined over the last 5 years while the top 4 of the Prem dominate europe. The Prem is the top league in the world paying the top wages and foreign players want to join the money go round....but it really is at the detriment of the national team.We have a decent starting 11 but little else and maybe thats because prem places are limited to many english players. There are many footy fans who dont give a toss about the national team. I have never understood this and would much prefer to see England dominate world football rather than the Big 4 dominate europe with increasingly non english players in their line up. Arsenal winning the champs league would not be a celebration for english football.
I dont think it would be too much of a hardship for many prem clubs.....so bring it on...but I doubt the PC brigade would allow it.

[knowingeye]

May 29, 2008 10:48:16 GMT WurstBoy said:

what about British players?

or do they have to be English?

and what about Cardiff, Swansea etc? Welsh teams playing in the English league - do they have to field English or Welsh (or British) players?

Wales have to same problem with only one Premiership player starting their game v Iceland , I think. But this brings into question the various FAs ie English, Welsh, Scottish and raises other issues regarding a UK league.

[CashBack]

You do realise this UEFA "idea" is actully the shit one which will make no difference?

It is FIFA's rule we should be supporting with the 6+5 rule.

This UEFA one is VERY bad news as even though it says homegrown locally trianed players, it does nto matter what thier nationality is.

So if Arsenal trian 10 spaniads 10 french men and 0 English they will be following this new idea.

It does not protect English players like the FIFA rule does. Forget about the Top 4 snapping them up as Chalsea, Man utd and Liverpool already play near enough 5/6 English players in their team. The only team it will effect will be Arsenal and that is not bad news.

Knowing Eye the UEFA idea is not a good one and AH The top 4 will have to start training more and better English players. These players will filter down through the teams and we will see an increase on the 40 currently that are "good Enough"

[panini2001]

Legally I don't think this can be implemented. We have complete freedom of movement in Europe and any European in the EU can work in England. Football is a job and any EU citizen can apply for a job in the UK and work legally. Don't think this can possibly be implemented no matter what anyone thinks.

[mikeyb99]

I don't give a monkey's about whether the English national team does/does not improve as a result of teams being forced to field 5/6 English (and it should be English, not Jocks or Taffes) players, but it will be part of getting a grip on English top-tier football that is increasingly becoming a solely commercial enterprise.

Hopefully a measure such as this should reduce the ridiculously high wages Premiership players get, and dissuade foreign billionaires from turning football clubs into their expensive toys.

EDIT: I've not read the proposal ... so it looks like their is no stipulation that players have to be English to qualify. Hardly seems worth the effort in that case.

[knowingeye]

May 29, 2008 10:57:27 GMT mikeyb99 said:

I don't give a monkey's about whether the English national team does/does not improve as a result of teams being forced to field 5/6 English (and it should be English, not Jocks or Taffes) players, but it will be part of getting a grip on English top-tier football that is increasingly becoming a solely commercial enterprise.

Hopefully a measure such as this should reduce the ridiculously high wages Premiership players get, and dissuade foreign billionaires from turning football clubs into their expensive toys.

Mikey99, But aren't the two issues directly linked are the reasons for the clubs taking on foreign players, based upon better value (blah, blah, blah), just "bullshit-based" PR to convince they're trying their best in what they want us to believe is a competitive market?

[CashBack]

Miky as i said there are two different rules being put forward. Don't get confused.

The FIFA one would mean 5/6 ENGLISH players need to be in every english team. This breaks EU law which means they do not support it.

The UEFA one sets a quota of locally trained homegrown players BUT they can be any nationality. This does not break EU law which is why the EU are supporting it.

Clearer now? ;D

[WurstBoy]

I am not sure that it does break EU law. EU law encourages freedom
of movement. It does not say "you must / not employ xyz" it says - you may employ xyz if you wish.

EU Law does not tell eg Deutsche Bank that all of its Bankers must be German - or that they may not be Dutch. Deutsche Bank chooses the best people for the job. If the CEO of Deutsche Bank were to say that he wants 60% of his employees to speak German as a mother tongue, EU law would not be able to do anything.

Nobody is saying that foreigners can't come and play, the football leagues, who are responsible for their own rules, are simply stipulating that the nationality make-up of the teams in its own private league needs to be more representative of their home country.

All of the above is my thoroughly unresearched opinion and may or may not have any basis in EU law...

[Deleted]

May 29, 2008 10:53:17 GMT CashBack said:

... AH The top 4 will have to start training more and better English players

When I see him; I'll ask God if he wouldn't mind creating a few more English lads with the natural born talent. Great footballers are born, and then trained ... not just trained.




And neither rule will do what is says on the tin (UEFA or FIFA). FIFA's is now nerfed ... you can employ as many foreigners as you want, but only play 5 at any one time (Raffa will love it). And UEFA's just says you can import kids (from anywhere) and train them in England to be OK (however, if the kids decided to apply for UK "citizenship" then they would qualify for the England team).

Of the two, UEFA's will have the least impact on clubs outside of the top-4 (like Pompy) who can only compete by bringing in foreigners (see Coates' latest statement re "that is what Stoke will have to do").

Any supporter of a non-top-4 club is deluded if they think this will make things fair for them. Or improve th English national team.

As for the English National Team - I refuse to believe anyone outside the Top-40 English players is good enough to win us a world cup. Non-league is not full of talent nobody can be arsed to go and train up, and England is not full of great little kiddies that no academy wants.

Like deciding 70,000 extra-barrels of oil a year will solve the current energy-crsis; this proposal does nothing other than give "politicans" something to spout.

Life, business and sport are not fair. Inventing rules to try and make it so always makes things worse.


(End of - Copyright fee paid )

ah



BTW: I believe the rule for England/Scotland/Wales will be "British" ... or Welsh and Scottish football is over!

[knowingeye]

ah said "Non-league is not full of talent nobody can be arsed to go and train up, and England is not full of great little kiddies that no academy wants."

Ian Wright?

[The Toxic Avenger]

May 29, 2008 10:49:14 GMT cousindupree said:

I am a big supporter of this proposal. Its no coincidence that the national team's success has declined over the last 5 years while the top 4 of the Prem dominate europe. The Prem is the top league in the world paying the top wages and foreign players want to join the money go round....but it really is at the detriment of the national team.We have a decent starting 11 but little else and maybe thats because prem places are limited to many english players. There are many footy fans who dont give a toss about the national team. I have never understood this and would much prefer to see England dominate world football rather than the Big 4 dominate europe with increasingly non english players in their line up. Arsenal winning the champs league would not be a celebration for english football.
I dont think it would be too much of a hardship for many prem clubs.....so bring it on...but I doubt the PC brigade would allow it.

Don't agree with this at all. The National team's level of success was pretty constant until they appointed a joke of a manager. The Premier League is awash with foreigners because English players are priced astronomically. If this law came into force, wouldn't the value of English players go up even further, since the "big" clubs would need to buy them?

[knowingeye]

"The Premier League is awash with foreigners because English players are priced astronomically." Clarify value, please. Are you talking wages or contract lengths?

[Deleted]

May 29, 2008 12:56:39 GMT knowingeye said:

ah said "Non-league is not full of talent nobody can be arsed to go and train up, and England is not full of great little kiddies that no academy wants."

Ian Wright?

Scored how many for England? Not good enough on a world stage ... That's me point. You end up lowering the quality of the PL to still have no more world class English players



ah

[Deleted]

I imagine that this has all come to the fore because the best paying league in the world dominated the Champions League this year. I image lots of other nations have spotted the numbers of non English players in English teams and have been hrmphing a lot at Blatter and Platini. The truth is that there is next to nothing that they can do within European law. This is just an exercise in appearing to do something about it rather than being able to do anything at all.

[knowingeye]

May 29, 2008 13:05:34 GMT @andyhar said:

May 29, 2008 12:56:39 GMT knowingeye said:

ah said "Non-league is not full of talent nobody can be arsed to go and train up, and England is not full of great little kiddies that no academy wants."

Ian Wright?

Scored how many for England? Not good enough on a world stage ... That's me point. You end up lowering the quality of the PL to still have no more world class English players



ah

Nine goals in thirty-one appearances.

[The Toxic Avenger]

Four of those coming in one match against the mighty San Marino.

To answer your earlier contract KE, I was referring to transfer fees, without even getting into contract lengths, signing on fees, wages etc. Do you blame Wenger for buying foreign, when gems like Fabregas and Toure cost less put together than the money he had to spend to get the likes of Francis Jeffers or Richard Wright?

Darren Bent £16m, Roque Santa Cruz, £3.5m. Another example.

[knowingeye]

May 29, 2008 14:54:15 GMT The Toxic Avenger said:

Four of those coming in one match against the mighty San Marino. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

To answer your earlier contract KE, I was referring to transfer fees, without even getting into contract lengths, signing on fees, wages etc. Do you blame Wenger for buying foreign, when gems like Fabregas and Toure cost less put together than the money he had to spend to get the likes of Francis Jeffers or Richard Wright?

Darren Bent £16m, Roque Santa Cruz, £3.5m. Another example.

I don't blame Wenger for buying foreign that's his choice, but to say that there are English talented youths out there, then going to buy foreign (even at youth level), seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

Apart from one or two "superstars" (or "super-egos"), English youth has the capability of playing at the highest level in their age groups, not for anywhere near what the media says they want, but still the fashion is to look abroad before under their very noses. I've had this discussion with several well-known coaches in recent weeks and they're sick of seeing Aussie, American, African lads for example, coming in and taking jobs from local players, for no reason other than it's the thing to do. You can't blame the likes of Harry Kewell, Mark Viduka or Nani, but you can't seriously tell me that their better than what is here already. The FA Academies just don't give the chance to English (or British) players.

Have a read of the article below from the Times.

May 26, 2008
Glenn Hoddle hands out Spanish lessons at Chelsea

Glenn Hoddle Academy
Tom Dart

A drama of rejection and renewal was enacted at Chelsea’s Cobham training ground at the weekend and it was nothing to do with the departure of Avram Grant. It was here that Glenn Hoddle launched his new project: resurrecting the careers of teenagers discarded by clubs.

About 60 recently-released youth-team players from the top two divisions took part in trials. The former England manager will select half to spend a year at his coaching academy in Jerez, Spain, moulding his pupils into desirable commodities.

Hoddle said he turned down “six or seven” club jobs to head the scheme, his zeal spurred by painful memories from his managerial career of telling teenagers they were being let go. “I’ll be down there nine months of the year,” he said. “It’s a commitment but this is what I wanted to do, it’s been on my mind for almost 17 years.”

The theory is that as clubs fill their academies with the best of the world’s talent, capable home-grown players lose out and are cast off too soon. “How can you judge an 18-year-old?” Hoddle said. “What we will do with them is the key. No disrespect, but these lads have been working at academy level. If they’re at Manchester United they haven’t been working with Sir Alex Ferguson and his staff. At Arsenal, Arsène Wenger hasn’t been working with these boys.

“If you coach them with international footballers, we know what we can give these boys mentally, physically and technically. By the time they’re 19 they might be different players.”

As a safety net, Leeds Met Carnegie, part of Leeds Metropolitan University, will provide academic support.

There is an irony in removing British players to Spain as a consequence of the foreign invasion. In the season just ended, there were, on average, only four Englishmen per starting XI in the Barclays Premier League. As well as the ominous undertones for the future of the England team, it means a likely exodus of talent into the lower leagues. Hoddle believes that a radical restructuring of the pyramid should be considered.

“If English players are not getting into the first teams at Premiership level in the coming years, the Championship may have to become a sourcing ground for young English footballers and that concerns me,” he said.

“No disrespect to the Championship, it’s a hard league, but it’s a million miles away from international football. So we would have to look at changing the scenario at that level. It needs to be, for me, two [divisions of] 18. You’ve still got promotion and relegation but you’re not going to have 46 games a year. The pitches will be better for technical players.”

Conor McCormack, an 18-year-old right back, was released by Manchester United, but accompanied the youth team to Moscow to watch the Champions League final. After the glory, the grind: he was met at Heathrow on the way back by Hoddle’s staff, who took him straight to Cobham.

“They [United] can sign whoever they like. They signed a few Brazilians that played in my position that are my age and unfortunately I was the one that was told to go,” McCormack said. “We’re up against lads from every country in the world. In the Premiership it’s going crazy, there are too many foreigners in the game. The English, the Scottish and the Irish are getting reduced chances. It’s a pity but that’s just the way it is now.”

Footnote:- McCormack recently played v Stoke in a reserves match and it just doesn't add up, why players like him can't get a contract.

Sentinel match report

[knowingeye]

news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/7421348.stm

BBC Friday, 30 May 2008 06:53 UK

Fifa votes for foreign quota rule

Fifa president Sepp Blatter is still keen to implement the ruling
Fifa has voted overwhelmingly in favour of the 'six-plus-five rule' put forward by president Sepp Blatter.

The proposal would limit the number of foreign players in a team to five by 2012/2013 but the European Commission is against its implementation.

FA chief executive Brian Barwick is unconvinced by the strategy and he said: "It's about balance.

"We still believe in the meritocracy of players in the team on performance and on ability first and foremost."

The European Union (EU) has branded the rule discriminatory and illegal.

"We're giving red card to the rule," said Vladimir Spidla, Europe's Commissioner for Equal Opportunities.

The Commission believes a quota on foreign footballers would be incompatible with EU law which allows workers to move freely between member countries.

Blatter is keen to work with the EU and Uefa to make it a reality and he has adopted an approach of "consultation not confrontation".


BBC sports editor Mihir Bose
As reported by BBC sports editor Mihir Bose last week, Blatter has backed off his initial intention to take on the EU if necessary to force the plans through.

"The congress was very happy in a result of overwhelming majority, with 155 votes in favour and five against. 155 yes and five no," said Blatter after the Fifa congress, which was held in Sydney, Australia.

"It is an overwhelming support to this resolution.

"The Fifa president has asked, together with the Uefa president (Michel Platini), to explore - and explore is not to discuss, it's to go in depth - within the limits of the law.

Blatter has a meeting with the EU on 5 June and he added: "Speaking about it is illegal? For whom? For when? If there is a law, a law can be amended."

John McDonald is a spokesman for the European Commissioner for Sport and he told BBC 5 Live he does not expect Blatter's ambitions to succeed on this front.

"It is a non-starter as far as we are concerned," he said.

"Interestingly the wording that Mr Blatter mentioned this morning at his press conference was that the resolution of FIFA is to explore within the limits of the law the 6 plus 5 rule.

"And they can explore as much as they like but unfortunately a 6 plus 5 rule is against Community legislation."

Blatter wants to restrict the number of foreign players in teams by the start in the 2010/11 season, with a minimum of four home-grown players.

He added he expects it to grow to six, with a maximum of five foreigners, by 2012/13 - and claims the plan has the backing of key European delegates.

In contrast, the "home-grown players" rule which is set to be expanded from next season so that eight players in a Champions League or Uefa Cup squad must have been developed by the club has received EU backing.

To be eligible, a player of any nationality must have been developed by the club for three years between the ages of 15 and 21.

Jan Figel, EU Commissioner for Education, Training and Youth, said Uefa's proposals did not discriminate against nationality and encouraged clubs to develop their academies.

"Measures which require the top European clubs to preserve quality training structures seem to me to be necessary," said Figel.

"The Uefa rule thus avoids the risk of professional football clubs abandoning training structures."

[RAF]

I realise it's just a proposal and the European Union does not agree with it as it stands, and I actually agree it would be better for the England football team if we had more homegrown players in the Prem, but does it not just smack of jealousy by Blatter and his cronies that English teams (albeit with alot of foreign players) have done so well in Europe in recent years?
It seems to me that he has realised that the Premier League is the best in the world and he doesn't like it at all.
Of course if Spanish or Italian teams had been hogging the European limelight like they have before in years gone by I don't think he would have said shit.
Just my little view on the subject.

H

[knowingeye]

On Friday evening Radio 5 had an interesting debate and apart from Malcolm falling out with one telephone participant calling him aggressive and rude (when he wasn't! Good though) the debate was lively and informative.

One element picked up was the exception rule relating to EU regulations ie to stadia seating, crowd activities during games and made me realise that although the FIFA and UEFA proposals are trying to acheive the same ends, to dismiss the FIFA proposal could be a great mistake.

Well worth a listen. Get a cup of tea (or coffee) or something stronger, click and listen.

Stephen Nolan Fri 30th May on Radio 5 player

[stevetheboater]

I don't understand why this is even an employment law issue - no-one is saying the club can't employ as many foreign players as they like. They will still be employed even if they're not in the team on a particular day. Its exactly the same as the rule on the number of loan players in a team but no-one jumps up and down about that...

What am I missing?