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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 8:22:08 GMT
Buy can't walk the walk.
Listening to Garry week in week out he states what we all see but can't change it. A good manager can see the issues and is capable of making the change.
Is it that players are not listening to him or just can't play the system he wants to play?
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Post by Gods on Oct 25, 2018 8:30:46 GMT
He's 2 months in to a 2 year contract, I think we will improve, sadly it may be too late for this season although I suppose we still have a punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I think we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment. We can't just keep firing managers willy nilly at £3m a pop every 12 or 14 games or so. It would just be a nonsense.
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Post by lstokie on Oct 25, 2018 8:48:25 GMT
He's 2 months in to a 2 year contract, I think we will improve, sadly it may be too late for this season. I suppose we still have a punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I think we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment. We can't just keep firing managers willy nilly at £3m a pop every 12 or 14 games or so. It would just be a nonsense. Is this a non-pessimistic & overall decent outlook on The Oatcake? Did someone put something in my morning coffee? |
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Post by Gods on Oct 25, 2018 8:55:23 GMT
He's 2 months in to a 2 year contract, I think we will improve, sadly it may be too late for this season. I suppose we still have a punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I think we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment. We can't just keep firing managers willy nilly at £3m a pop every 12 or 14 games or so. It would just be a nonsense. Is this a non-pessimistic & overall decent outlook on The Oatcake? Did someone put something in my morning coffee? Ha! It's not like me, I'm feeling benevolent this morning, I promise it won't happen again! |
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 25, 2018 9:00:30 GMT
He's 2 months in to a 2 year contract, I think we will improve, sadly it may be too late for this season. I suppose we still have a punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I think we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment. We can't just keep firing managers willy-nilly at £3m a pop every 12 or 14 games or so. It would just be a nonsense. I hope you are right "it may be too late for this season" - No it isn't. There is a long way to go; all the other teams keep dropping points. "we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment" - No, we need to act before it is too late "We can't just keep firing managers" - We maintained loyalty with Hughes till things got hopeless (on and off the pitch), then no decent manager would take the job. Lambert failed to keep us up. Rowett is failing to make any serious impression. He largely got the squad he wanted, but we have failed to put a decent 90 minute performance together yet. In fact contrary to some other posters, I think we are actually getting worse: Woods started well and is now making lots of poor passes, McClean started as one of our brighter players (against Leeds, to a lot of bigots disgust), but has been useless the last 2 matches, and Afobi might as well run around in the car park, he is so disjointed from the rest of the team. "It would just be a nonsense." - No, Rowett has already had longer than a lot of owners would tolerate. He was a decent punt, I grant (I didn't want a "has been" managing), but he is clearly not up to the job, and needs to be replaced to allow a new man time to turn things round. We have our duffers in the squad, but it is still strong enough to achieve promotion under the right management. |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 25, 2018 9:03:22 GMT
He's 2 months in to a 2 year contract, I think we will improve, sadly it may be too late for this season. I suppose we still have a punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I think we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment. We can't just keep firing managers willy nilly at £3m a pop every 12 or 14 games or so. It would just be a nonsense. What do you see that makes you think we'll improve? I see any back 4 we play not up to the task, a reliance on McClean that is inexcusable, tinkering with the starting XI in an attempt to find one that works and a squad bereft of any confidence that decides to play when we go behind. Apart from throwing another shed load of money at it in January what do you think will change? Genuine question as I'm looking for your straw to clutch at  EDIT: Or what mrcoke just said  |
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Post by scfc75 on Oct 25, 2018 9:05:09 GMT
He's 2 months in to a 2 year contract, I think we will improve, sadly it may be too late for this season. I suppose we still have a punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I think we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment. We can't just keep firing managers willy-nilly at £3m a pop every 12 or 14 games or so. It would just be a nonsense. I hope you are right "it may be too late for this season" - No it isn't. There is a long way to go; all the other teams keep dropping points. "we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment" - No, we need to act before it is too late "We can't just keep firing managers" - We maintained loyalty with Hughes till things got hopeless (on and off the pitch), then no decent manager would take the job. Lambert failed to keep us up. Rowett is failing to make any serious impression. He largely got the squad he wanted, but we have failed to put a decent 90 minute performance together yet. In fact contrary to some other posters, I think we are actually getting worse: Woods started well and is now making lots of poor passes, McClean started as one of our brighter players (against Leeds, to a lot of bigots disgust), but has been useless the last 2 matches, and Afobi might as well run around in the car park, he is so disjointed from the rest of the team. "It would just be a nonsense." - No, Rowett has already had longer than a lot of owners would tolerate. He was a decent punt, I grant (I didn't want a "has been" managing), but he is clearly not up to the job, and needs to be replaced to allow a new man time to turn things round. We have our duffers in the squad, but it is still strong enough to achieve promotion under the right management. What if the new man comes in and we’re no better after 14 games? Sack him too? I’m not saying we shouldn’t consider our options but it’s clear the problems go beyond the manager. Bringing a new guy in will not make us better overnight. |
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Post by Gods on Oct 25, 2018 9:16:26 GMT
He's 2 months in to a 2 year contract, I think we will improve, sadly it may be too late for this season. I suppose we still have a punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I think we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment. We can't just keep firing managers willy nilly at £3m a pop every 12 or 14 games or so. It would just be a nonsense. What do you see that makes you think we'll improve? I see any back 4 we play not up to the task, a reliance on McClean that is inexcusable, tinkering with the starting XI in an attempt to find one that works and a squad bereft of any confidence that decides to play when we go behind. Apart from throwing another shed load of money at it in January what do you think will change? Genuine question as I'm looking for your straw to clutch at EDIT: Or what mrcoke just said Well we got 6 points from the first 7 matches and 11 points from the most recent 7 games so in terms of pure outcomes we have improved already. You might say to me that the beauty of making a really, really bad start is that the only way is up from there but we are doing better, nearly twice as well! |
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Post by robrigo on Oct 25, 2018 9:20:24 GMT
He won’t be sacked- not just yet anyway.
However I would suspect the Board will be concerned.
Decision will be made summer 2020!
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Post by westgatelakes on Oct 25, 2018 9:21:38 GMT
Watford seem to have done alright by changing managers at least once a season - I say give Rowett until mid-December to improve things or get rid so that a new manager can sort things out in January.
I do not want to see Rowett ruining our club any further by signing any more dross in January.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 25, 2018 9:26:10 GMT
Watford seem to have done alright by changing managers at least once a season - I say give Rowett until mid-December to improve things or get rid so that a new manager can sort things out in January. I do not want to see Rowett ruining our club any further by signing any more dross in January. Watford's managerial radar included places other than the UK though. They plucked Javi Gracia out of nowhere last year whilst we picked a guy rejected for the Hull job. We wouldn't do that, we'd just appoint McCarthy and continue in the same vein. |
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Post by santy on Oct 25, 2018 9:34:39 GMT
The thing is with our last 3 managers, they were all setting the team up in ways to perform against significantly better opposition.
Pulis it was ugly at times, but highly functional. Football was a little different, the style in which Pulis played didn't have to contend with the premier leagues high pressing game.
Hughes, even at the end, you could see what he was trying - but the situation with the squad was bizarre and who was truly at fault for that we'll never know.
Lambert, reverted more to a Pulis-style functionality, but may not have been the right man. There was a definite plan, which could create chances albeit in limited fashion.
Rowett has come in and I can see what he's trying to do... I just can't see why he's trying to do it. Championship teams are now pressing high up the pitch, I don't know the stats for all teams, but we seem to be the team with the deepest defensive line in the league before we put pressure on the opposition. This is just pretty outdated thinking.
The lack of movement in the middle of the field is entirely down to Rowett's set-up, at least during the better times under Hughes and even before the mishaps of last season we'd see more lateral and vertical movement in midfield with players like Assaidi, Moses, Odemwingie, Arnautovic, Shaqiri. We still have players capable of it in Ince, in Berahino, in Bojan of course, and even Afobe is capable of good movement. Yet it seems like the plan is for them to not do it.
I've said it elsewhere, but we get this situation that happens game in, game out at the moment.
We get possession. The team switches to a 3-4-3 which is ideal for a fast build up, and to get the ball forward there's no two ways about it.
However, there is this enormous gap between the defensive 3 and midfield 4. Because it just takes 3 men stepping up from the opposition to negate it. Now "negative" Birmingham did it fine, people saying they were playing negatively but they were pressuring us in our own half. We don't even pressure teams in our own half. Sheffield United shut it down flawlessly as well. In fact, most teams have dealt with it fine.
There's plenty of solutions, but this building from the back and letting the opposition get entrenched, it's a relic of football thinking from a decade ago.
Effective teams win the ball back high up the pitch, or at least have a plan that can get the ball and players forward. Rowett does neither. Maybe he can change, maybe he can learn, but he's supposedly a man big on his data, yet doesn't seem to understand the data that makes the successful teams successful. We have seen that when we're losing, pretty much no team so far in this league can cope well with us attacking in full force. Maybe West Brom but then they're used to defending at a higher level. Our one big asset, is that seemingly with the shackles taken off the attacking talent is still there. We've lost Shaqiri and we've lost Arnautovic, but the players who remain are still more than good enough to carve teams up at this level. Rowett literally keeps it restrained until he hits the "in case of emergency break glass" button.
I can see a situation in which come Christmas day we're on 26/27 points. That's a pretty worrying thought.
While we're not as wasteful on the wages as Newcastle were when they came down, and there's some semblance of intelligence somewhere that put relegation wage drop clauses in our player contracts (otherwise we would have by far the highest wage budget ever seen for a championship team) this is still the most expensive squad ever to play in the championship. This isn't a Newcastle style penny pinching chairman who got it wrong. It's not a Sunderland style financial meltdown led us to here. Nor is it a budget Wigan approach that led to us coming down. We didn't do what Burnley initially did and refuse to invest in our squad, we didn't do what so many of the other teams who have been relegated have done.
We're sitting here now, in the championship, with the most expensively assembled team to ever play in this league. That's the reality. It's arguably one of the best teams to have come down to this level as well, and we genuinely see that when we attack. The sad thing is, attacking football is limited to being 1 goal down after the 80th minute or 2 or more goals down before the 75th minute.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 9:37:44 GMT
The thing is with our last 3 managers, they were all setting the team up in ways to perform against significantly better opposition. Pulis it was ugly at times, but highly functional. Football was a little different, the style in which Pulis played didn't have to contend with the premier leagues high pressing game. Hughes, even at the end, you could see what he was trying - but the situation with the squad was bizarre and who was truly at fault for that we'll never know. Lambert, reverted more to a Pulis-style functionality, but may not have been the right man. There was a definite plan, which could create chances albeit in limited fashion. Rowett has come in and I can see what he's trying to do... I just can't see why he's trying to do it. Championship teams are now pressing high up the pitch, I don't know the stats for all teams, but we seem to be the team with the deepest defensive line in the league before we put pressure on the opposition. This is just pretty outdated thinking. The lack of movement in the middle of the field is entirely down to Rowett's set-up, at least during the better times under Hughes and even before the mishaps of last season we'd see more lateral and vertical movement in midfield with players like Assaidi, Moses, Odemwingie, Arnautovic, Shaqiri. We still have players capable of it in Ince, in Berahino, in Bojan of course, and even Afobe is capable of good movement. Yet it seems like the plan is for them to not do it. I've said it elsewhere, but we get this situation that happens game in, game out at the moment. We get possession. The team switches to a 3-4-3 which is ideal for a fast build up, and to get the ball forward there's no two ways about it. However, there is this enormous gap between the defensive 3 and midfield 4. Because it just takes 3 men stepping up from the opposition to negate it. Now "negative" Birmingham did it fine, people saying they were playing negatively but they were pressuring us in our own half. We don't even pressure teams in our own half. Sheffield United shut it down flawlessly as well. In fact, most teams have dealt with it fine. There's plenty of solutions, but this building from the back and letting the opposition get entrenched, it's a relic of football thinking from a decade ago. Effective teams win the ball back high up the pitch, or at least have a plan that can get the ball and players forward. Rowett does neither. Maybe he can change, maybe he can learn, but he's supposedly a man big on his data, yet doesn't seem to understand the data that makes the successful teams successful. We have seen that when we're losing, pretty much no team so far in this league can cope well with us attacking in full force. Maybe West Brom but then they're used to defending at a higher level. Our one big asset, is that seemingly with the shackles taken off the attacking talent is still there. We've lost Shaqiri and we've lost Arnautovic, but the players who remain are still more than good enough to carve teams up at this level. Rowett literally keeps it restrained until he hits the "in case of emergency break glass" button. I can see a situation in which come Christmas day we're on 26/27 points. That's a pretty worrying thought. While we're not as wasteful on the wages as Newcastle were when they came down, and there's some semblance of intelligence somewhere that put relegation release clauses in our player contracts (otherwise we would have by far the highest wage budget ever seen for a championship team) this is still the most expensive squad ever to play in the championship. This isn't a Newcastle style penny pinching chairman who got it wrong. It's not a Sunderland style financial meltdown led us to here. Nor is it a budget Wigan approach that led to us coming down. We didn't do what Burnley initially did and refuse to invest in our squad, we didn't do what so many of the other teams who have been relegated have done. We're sitting here now, in the championship, with the most expensively assembled team to ever play in this league. That's the reality. It's arguably one of the best teams to have come down to this level as well, and we genuinely see that when we attack. The sad thing is, attacking football is limited to being 1 goal down after the 80th minute or 2 or more goals down before the 75th minute. Fabulous post sir. |
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Post by robrigo on Oct 25, 2018 9:51:38 GMT
The thing is with our last 3 managers, they were all setting the team up in ways to perform against significantly better opposition. Pulis it was ugly at times, but highly functional. Football was a little different, the style in which Pulis played didn't have to contend with the premier leagues high pressing game. Hughes, even at the end, you could see what he was trying - but the situation with the squad was bizarre and who was truly at fault for that we'll never know. Lambert, reverted more to a Pulis-style functionality, but may not have been the right man. There was a definite plan, which could create chances albeit in limited fashion. Rowett has come in and I can see what he's trying to do... I just can't see why he's trying to do it. Championship teams are now pressing high up the pitch, I don't know the stats for all teams, but we seem to be the team with the deepest defensive line in the league before we put pressure on the opposition. This is just pretty outdated thinking. The lack of movement in the middle of the field is entirely down to Rowett's set-up, at least during the better times under Hughes and even before the mishaps of last season we'd see more lateral and vertical movement in midfield with players like Assaidi, Moses, Odemwingie, Arnautovic, Shaqiri. We still have players capable of it in Ince, in Berahino, in Bojan of course, and even Afobe is capable of good movement. Yet it seems like the plan is for them to not do it. I've said it elsewhere, but we get this situation that happens game in, game out at the moment. We get possession. The team switches to a 3-4-3 which is ideal for a fast build up, and to get the ball forward there's no two ways about it. However, there is this enormous gap between the defensive 3 and midfield 4. Because it just takes 3 men stepping up from the opposition to negate it. Now "negative" Birmingham did it fine, people saying they were playing negatively but they were pressuring us in our own half. We don't even pressure teams in our own half. Sheffield United shut it down flawlessly as well. In fact, most teams have dealt with it fine. There's plenty of solutions, but this building from the back and letting the opposition get entrenched, it's a relic of football thinking from a decade ago. Effective teams win the ball back high up the pitch, or at least have a plan that can get the ball and players forward. Rowett does neither. Maybe he can change, maybe he can learn, but he's supposedly a man big on his data, yet doesn't seem to understand the data that makes the successful teams successful. We have seen that when we're losing, pretty much no team so far in this league can cope well with us attacking in full force. Maybe West Brom but then they're used to defending at a higher level. Our one big asset, is that seemingly with the shackles taken off the attacking talent is still there. We've lost Shaqiri and we've lost Arnautovic, but the players who remain are still more than good enough to carve teams up at this level. Rowett literally keeps it restrained until he hits the "in case of emergency break glass" button. I can see a situation in which come Christmas day we're on 26/27 points. That's a pretty worrying thought. While we're not as wasteful on the wages as Newcastle were when they came down, and there's some semblance of intelligence somewhere that put relegation wage drop clauses in our player contracts (otherwise we would have by far the highest wage budget ever seen for a championship team) this is still the most expensive squad ever to play in the championship. This isn't a Newcastle style penny pinching chairman who got it wrong. It's not a Sunderland style financial meltdown led us to here. Nor is it a budget Wigan approach that led to us coming down. We didn't do what Burnley initially did and refuse to invest in our squad, we didn't do what so many of the other teams who have been relegated have done. We're sitting here now, in the championship, with the most expensively assembled team to ever play in this league. That's the reality. It's arguably one of the best teams to have come down to this level as well, and we genuinely see that when we attack. The sad thing is, attacking football is limited to being 1 goal down after the 80th minute or 2 or more goals down before the 75th minute. Post of the year. Bravo mate! |
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Post by Gods on Oct 25, 2018 10:08:17 GMT
While we're not as wasteful on the wages as Newcastle were when they came down, and there's some semblance of intelligence somewhere that put relegation wage drop clauses in our player contracts (otherwise we would have by far the highest wage budget ever seen for a championship team) this is still the most expensive squad ever to play in the championship. This isn't a Newcastle style penny pinching chairman who got it wrong. It's not a Sunderland style financial meltdown led us to here. Nor is it a budget Wigan approach that led to us coming down. We didn't do what Burnley initially did and refuse to invest in our squad, we didn't do what so many of the other teams who have been relegated have done. We're sitting here now, in the championship, with the most expensively assembled team to ever play in this league. That's the reality. It's arguably one of the best teams to have come down to this level as well, and we genuinely see that when we attack. The sad thing is, attacking football is limited to being 1 goal down after the 80th minute or 2 or more goals down before the 75th minute. Some excellent points I think. But Newcastle's wage bill in their recent championship promotion season was, would you believe, higher than all but 8 Premier League clubs according to this article. Club by club wage bill 2016/17 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 10:12:24 GMT
He has an excellent grasp of the game from his interviews, and doesn't really say much i disagree with (except McClean and Crouch after tuesday).
I think the performances have worried him slightly at the start and it's started a cycle of being worried about attacking, followed by a poor performance because we're not attacking, etc.etc.
I'm not worried, worst comes to worst, we don't go up and we end up with another year in a much more exciting league!
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p9678
Spectator
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Post by p9678 on Oct 25, 2018 10:17:58 GMT
The thing is with our last 3 managers, they were all setting the team up in ways to perform against significantly better opposition. Pulis it was ugly at times, but highly functional. Football was a little different, the style in which Pulis played didn't have to contend with the premier leagues high pressing game. Hughes, even at the end, you could see what he was trying - but the situation with the squad was bizarre and who was truly at fault for that we'll never know. Lambert, reverted more to a Pulis-style functionality, but may not have been the right man. There was a definite plan, which could create chances albeit in limited fashion. Rowett has come in and I can see what he's trying to do... I just can't see why he's trying to do it. Championship teams are now pressing high up the pitch, I don't know the stats for all teams, but we seem to be the team with the deepest defensive line in the league before we put pressure on the opposition. This is just pretty outdated thinking. The lack of movement in the middle of the field is entirely down to Rowett's set-up, at least during the better times under Hughes and even before the mishaps of last season we'd see more lateral and vertical movement in midfield with players like Assaidi, Moses, Odemwingie, Arnautovic, Shaqiri. We still have players capable of it in Ince, in Berahino, in Bojan of course, and even Afobe is capable of good movement. Yet it seems like the plan is for them to not do it. I've said it elsewhere, but we get this situation that happens game in, game out at the moment. We get possession. The team switches to a 3-4-3 which is ideal for a fast build up, and to get the ball forward there's no two ways about it. However, there is this enormous gap between the defensive 3 and midfield 4. Because it just takes 3 men stepping up from the opposition to negate it. Now "negative" Birmingham did it fine, people saying they were playing negatively but they were pressuring us in our own half. We don't even pressure teams in our own half. Sheffield United shut it down flawlessly as well. In fact, most teams have dealt with it fine. There's plenty of solutions, but this building from the back and letting the opposition get entrenched, it's a relic of football thinking from a decade ago. Effective teams win the ball back high up the pitch, or at least have a plan that can get the ball and players forward. Rowett does neither. Maybe he can change, maybe he can learn, but he's supposedly a man big on his data, yet doesn't seem to understand the data that makes the successful teams successful. We have seen that when we're losing, pretty much no team so far in this league can cope well with us attacking in full force. Maybe West Brom but then they're used to defending at a higher level. Our one big asset, is that seemingly with the shackles taken off the attacking talent is still there. We've lost Shaqiri and we've lost Arnautovic, but the players who remain are still more than good enough to carve teams up at this level. Rowett literally keeps it restrained until he hits the "in case of emergency break glass" button. I can see a situation in which come Christmas day we're on 26/27 points. That's a pretty worrying thought. While we're not as wasteful on the wages as Newcastle were when they came down, and there's some semblance of intelligence somewhere that put relegation wage drop clauses in our player contracts (otherwise we would have by far the highest wage budget ever seen for a championship team) this is still the most expensive squad ever to play in the championship. This isn't a Newcastle style penny pinching chairman who got it wrong. It's not a Sunderland style financial meltdown led us to here. Nor is it a budget Wigan approach that led to us coming down. We didn't do what Burnley initially did and refuse to invest in our squad, we didn't do what so many of the other teams who have been relegated have done. We're sitting here now, in the championship, with the most expensively assembled team to ever play in this league. That's the reality. It's arguably one of the best teams to have come down to this level as well, and we genuinely see that when we attack. The sad thing is, attacking football is limited to being 1 goal down after the 80th minute or 2 or more goals down before the 75th minute. I completely agree with your points but unfortunately Rowett has to play a deep defensive line due to the severe lack of pace at the back. - Playing a high line that also presses with our personnel would be a disaster. -This is also the same reason we see the huge gaps between defence and midfield. I personally think Rowett deserves a full season and the coming January transfer window to build his squad before complete judgement can be made. Rowett was having sly digs at the transfer team throughout August and September so hopefully those issues will now be sorted. Having said that I’m still not sure who’s calling the shots regarding transfers. Martina is one of the most baffling transfer/ loans of all time. |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 25, 2018 10:20:59 GMT
What do you see that makes you think we'll improve? I see any back 4 we play not up to the task, a reliance on McClean that is inexcusable, tinkering with the starting XI in an attempt to find one that works and a squad bereft of any confidence that decides to play when we go behind. Apart from throwing another shed load of money at it in January what do you think will change? Genuine question as I'm looking for your straw to clutch at EDIT: Or what mrcoke just said  Well we got 6 points from the first 7 matches and 11 points from the most recent 7 games so in terms of pure outcomes we have improved already. You might say to me that the beauty of making a really, really bad start is that the only way is up from there but we are doing better, nearly twice as well! OK. Let's assume we carry on at the current rate of 1.57 points per game = 50 points over the remaining 32 games, add to the 17 we have = 67 points. Looks good until you realise 67 points last year secured 11th or 9th the season before. Admittedly 75 points got Derby 6th place last time and 80 points the year before for Fulham. So we come back to ambition again 'punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition' - not aimed at you mate (or theonlooker  ) but that's what this season has become. If people are happy with that, fine. The choice is do nothing and hope or change something and try. But if so do it now, not in Jan. |
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Post by chiswickpotter on Oct 25, 2018 10:21:21 GMT
He's 2 months in to a 2 year contract, I think we will improve, sadly it may be too late for this season although I suppose we still have a punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I think we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment. We can't just keep firing managers willy nilly at £3m a pop every 12 or 14 games or so. It would just be a nonsense. It’s only 9 points to the top with 96 to play for so it’s far from over. It requires 2 points a game average from now on, which is what automatic promotion normally needs. Clearly we need better defenders in our right side with more pace so we can take more risks. Very hard to press when any long ball to our right causes chaos. Hang in to Xmas, address the defence and sign a quick forward capable of cutting in from the left and we will be in good shape |
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Post by santy on Oct 25, 2018 10:27:38 GMT
While we're not as wasteful on the wages as Newcastle were when they came down, and there's some semblance of intelligence somewhere that put relegation wage drop clauses in our player contracts (otherwise we would have by far the highest wage budget ever seen for a championship team) this is still the most expensive squad ever to play in the championship. This isn't a Newcastle style penny pinching chairman who got it wrong. It's not a Sunderland style financial meltdown led us to here. Nor is it a budget Wigan approach that led to us coming down. We didn't do what Burnley initially did and refuse to invest in our squad, we didn't do what so many of the other teams who have been relegated have done. We're sitting here now, in the championship, with the most expensively assembled team to ever play in this league. That's the reality. It's arguably one of the best teams to have come down to this level as well, and we genuinely see that when we attack. The sad thing is, attacking football is limited to being 1 goal down after the 80th minute or 2 or more goals down before the 75th minute. Some excellent points I think. But Newcastle's wage bill in their recent championship promotion season was, would you believe, higher than all but 8 Premier League clubs according to this article. Club by club wage bill 2016/17It wouldn't be that surprising to see in the accounts Stoke pushed close to, or even beyond the £100m mark on wages last season. On one hand it doesn't change too much either, but if Newcastle ended their accounts at the end of May the end of season bonuses wouldn't be included in players salaries for that year. Their accounts go up until the end of June. We won't know until they publish their accounts, but they went from £70m and relegated, to £112m and promoted and could well be down quite a bit again this season. I seem to recall some criticisms that despite selling the likes of Townsend, Wijnaldum and Sissoko because the contracts were so poorly negotiated by Newcastle, there was still cash to be chucked in the way of those players that again would've gone down as wages expenses. I might have been off in that remark though, as I had it in my mind somewhere that Newcastle had a wage bill of £92m when they came back up, there's always some cynicism to be attached to Newcastle though. Mike Ashley on accounts typically values the Newcastle squad very highly, and so Newcastle get quite big player amortisation expenses on their accounts every year... money which then tends to go onto the amount Newcastle owe to Mike Ashley. |
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Post by santy on Oct 25, 2018 10:38:04 GMT
I completely agree with your points but unfortunately Rowett has to play a deep defensive line due to the severe lack of pace at the back. - Playing a high line that also presses with our personnel would be a disaster. -This is also the same reason we see the huge gaps between defence and midfield. I personally think Rowett deserves a full season and the coming January transfer window to build his squad before complete judgement can be made. Rowett was having sly digs at the transfer team throughout August and September so hopefully those issues will now be sorted. Having said that I’m still not sure who’s calling the shots regarding transfers. Martina is one of the most baffling transfer/ loans of all time. At first, I very much shared your sentiments regarding the defensive line. Here's the issue though, it's still incredibly vulnerable to balls over the top. The problem is that with this deeper play is that a ball over the top doesn't leave the opponent with the majority of our half to run in, and have a long way to go/give time for pacier players to track back - instead its balls over the top when the defensive line is about half way into our half. The ball is over the top and the man breaking through is on the edge of the box. We've been undone by long balls a number of times this season despite the defensive line. The defence-midfield gap is purely down to tactical set-up in my mind. Because it happens so well in terms of how its done, we get the ball, Pieters & Martina push up into the midfield line and Woods drops into the defensive line. If the opposition only has 1 or 2 players in this situation, its 3 quick passes away from the ball being in midfield. But teams are pressing man for man here, and it negates what Rowett is wanting to do. The problem is that the full backs either need to come central and then it becomes a 3-2-2-3 with a fairly compared box in the middle to quickly pass in the way that gets forward best, or, the two central midfielders drop a little deeper (not ideal when Bojan is playing) and then Ince & McClean come more central with the full backs then pushing up a little further and the team becomes something far more fluid, as you've then suddenly got 6 players who are moving in positions awkward to pick up for the opposition. It's not overly complicated, awkward movement is the way teams are breaking down the well established defending we've seen over the last 20 years. I wasn't around to see it first hand, but we're at a point where it seems like the 70's. Attacking football is again the stronger. We saw 10 years ago the defensive side of the game surpassed the calm, measured, "positive", build-up that had made Arsenal so strong under Wenger. Rowett actually has our build up play a lot like a budget version of Wenger, and has us defend like a poorly implemented version of Pulis (or in fact, how often does our defending look like that of Arsenal during those years, with comical mistakes out of nowhere?) But our pace is top heavy, and you don't want players running around like headless chickens for 90 minutes, but just being higher up the pitch can put so much pressure on opponents. Not to mention, our fullbacks aren't horribly slow, our centrehalves lack the speed but then you make sure the fullbacks are aware of their job. They have to get back fastest to slow counters, but I can't say too much about Williams, but Indi isn't that slow when he's sprinting. It used to be the same with Shawcross and Huth in years gone by, that Pulis did well. Other players would cover to slow the attack while they sprinted back to position, because in a straight line, without a ball/opponent to worry about they could shift themselves quickly. They never had the quick feet, or over 10 yards pace, but were always quick enough over 30 yards. These days we have McClean who can chase, Ince, Allen, Woods who are all quite quick and in most situations they could be at least making a nuisance to slow attacks down and give others the chance to regain position. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 25, 2018 10:49:40 GMT
Well we got 6 points from the first 7 matches and 11 points from the most recent 7 games so in terms of pure outcomes we have improved already. You might say to me that the beauty of making a really, really bad start is that the only way is up from there but we are doing better, nearly twice as well! OK. Let's assume we carry on at the current rate of 1.57 points per game = 50 points over the remaining 32 games, add to the 17 we have = 67 points. Looks good until you realise 67 points last year secured 11th or 9th the season before. Admittedly 75 points got Derby 6th place last time and 80 points the year before for Fulham. So we come back to ambition again 'punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition' - not aimed at you mate (or theonlooker ) but that's what this season has become. If people are happy with that, fine. The choice is do nothing and hope or change something and try. But if so do it now, not in Jan. Coates has repeatedly set the benchmark for this season. Playoffs minimum. We are not going to reach the playoffs with this manager and these players so does Coates apply a strict mathematical approach to this benchmark, in which case Rowett has until about March or does he apply a realistic approach which will be after Derby beat us at the absolute latest. He could try and be shrewd as well and do it Saturday night. |
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Post by stokieinaus on Oct 25, 2018 10:55:00 GMT
"I think we will improve" - I hope you are right "it may be too late for this season" - No it isn't. There is a long way to go; all the other teams keep dropping points. "we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment" - No, we need to act before it is too late "We can't just keep firing managers" - We maintained loyalty with Hughes till things got hopeless (on and off the pitch), then no decent manager would take the job. Lambert failed to keep us up. Rowett is failing to make any serious impression. He largely got the squad he wanted, but we have failed to put a decent 90 minute performance together yet. In fact contrary to some other posters, I think we are actually getting worse: Woods started well and is now making lots of poor passes, McClean started as one of our brighter players (against Leeds, to a lot of bigots disgust), but has been useless the last 2 matches, and Afobi might as well run around in the car park, he is so disjointed from the rest of the team. "It would just be a nonsense." - No, Rowett has already had longer than a lot of owners would tolerate. He was a decent punt, I grant (I didn't want a "has been" managing), but he is clearly not up to the job, and needs to be replaced to allow a new man time to turn things round. We have our duffers in the squad, but it is still strong enough to achieve promotion under the right management. What if the new man comes in and we’re no better after 14 games? Sack him too? I’m not saying we shouldn’t consider our options but it’s clear the problems go beyond the manager. Bringing a new guy in will not make us better overnight. Sack anyone who’s not good enough. if it were your business how long would you wait? Until you went broke? |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 25, 2018 11:16:21 GMT
OK. Let's assume we carry on at the current rate of 1.57 points per game = 50 points over the remaining 32 games, add to the 17 we have = 67 points. Looks good until you realise 67 points last year secured 11th or 9th the season before. Admittedly 75 points got Derby 6th place last time and 80 points the year before for Fulham. So we come back to ambition again 'punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition' - not aimed at you mate (or theonlooker ) but that's what this season has become. If people are happy with that, fine. The choice is do nothing and hope or change something and try. But if so do it now, not in Jan. Coates has repeatedly set the benchmark for this season. Playoffs minimum. We are not going to reach the playoffs with this manager and these players so does Coates apply a strict mathematical approach to this benchmark, in which case Rowett has until about March or does he apply a realistic approach which will be after Derby beat us at the absolute latest. He could try and be shrewd as well and do it Saturday night. Agreed. Problem is the club needs deeper surgery than just the manager. As PC hasn't seen what the fuss is about then would any new guy at the helm be any better still attached to the ball and chain of the 'back office'. Sorry to open old wounds  |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 25, 2018 11:20:56 GMT
Coates has repeatedly set the benchmark for this season. Playoffs minimum. We are not going to reach the playoffs with this manager and these players so does Coates apply a strict mathematical approach to this benchmark, in which case Rowett has until about March or does he apply a realistic approach which will be after Derby beat us at the absolute latest. He could try and be shrewd as well and do it Saturday night. Agreed. Problem is the club needs deeper surgery than just the manager. As PC hasn't seen what the fuss is about then would any new guy at the helm be any better still attached to the ball and chain of the 'back office'. Sorry to open old wounds If we were going to go with a serious operator or poach a decent up and coming manager then they would look at our dealings over the past few years and make it a condition that they would not work under Pinky and Perky's process. It would be down to Coates then to do the right thing and rid the club of the two clowns forever. It's one hundred percent the right thing to do but it wont happen in a month of Sunday's. |
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Oct 25, 2018 11:31:31 GMT
He's 2 months in to a 2 year contract, I think we will improve, sadly it may be too late for this season although I suppose we still have a punchers chance at taking part in the play off competition. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I think we need to hang tough and stay the course on this appointment. We can't just keep firing managers willy nilly at £3m a pop every 12 or 14 games or so. It would just be a nonsense. This post dosent belong on this board, its considered, well thought out and makes sense.  |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 25, 2018 12:02:57 GMT
While we're not as wasteful on the wages as Newcastle were when they came down, and there's some semblance of intelligence somewhere that put relegation wage drop clauses in our player contracts (otherwise we would have by far the highest wage budget ever seen for a championship team) this is still the most expensive squad ever to play in the championship. This isn't a Newcastle style penny pinching chairman who got it wrong. It's not a Sunderland style financial meltdown led us to here. Nor is it a budget Wigan approach that led to us coming down. We didn't do what Burnley initially did and refuse to invest in our squad, we didn't do what so many of the other teams who have been relegated have done. We're sitting here now, in the championship, with the most expensively assembled team to ever play in this league. That's the reality. It's arguably one of the best teams to have come down to this level as well, and we genuinely see that when we attack. The sad thing is, attacking football is limited to being 1 goal down after the 80th minute or 2 or more goals down before the 75th minute. Some excellent points I think. But Newcastle's wage bill in their recent championship promotion season was, would you believe, higher than all but 8 Premier League clubs according to this article. Club by club wage bill 2016/17Slightly off topic I know but looking at the financial stats from last season reveals that the top teams had wages bills far exceeding income. In some instances by some £120m. So how does FFP actually work? |
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Post by potterspele on Oct 25, 2018 12:23:30 GMT
I think the Boro game is massive for him. He seems to be exhausting the patience of a lot of fans and his decisions are being scrutinised during the games in a negative way.
Lose at home to another Pulis team and I can see that being the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of people.
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Post by jezzascfc on Oct 25, 2018 13:04:11 GMT
I completely agree with your points but unfortunately Rowett has to play a deep defensive line due to the severe lack of pace at the back. - Playing a high line that also presses with our personnel would be a disaster. -This is also the same reason we see the huge gaps between defence and midfield. I personally think Rowett deserves a full season and the coming January transfer window to build his squad before complete judgement can be made. Rowett was having sly digs at the transfer team throughout August and September so hopefully those issues will now be sorted. Having said that I’m still not sure who’s calling the shots regarding transfers. Martina is one of the most baffling transfer/ loans of all time. At first, I very much shared your sentiments regarding the defensive line. Here's the issue though, it's still incredibly vulnerable to balls over the top. The problem is that with this deeper play is that a ball over the top doesn't leave the opponent with the majority of our half to run in, and have a long way to go/give time for pacier players to track back - instead its balls over the top when the defensive line is about half way into our half. The ball is over the top and the man breaking through is on the edge of the box. We've been undone by long balls a number of times this season despite the defensive line. The defence-midfield gap is purely down to tactical set-up in my mind. Because it happens so well in terms of how its done, we get the ball, Pieters & Martina push up into the midfield line and Woods drops into the defensive line. If the opposition only has 1 or 2 players in this situation, its 3 quick passes away from the ball being in midfield. But teams are pressing man for man here, and it negates what Rowett is wanting to do. The problem is that the full backs either need to come central and then it becomes a 3-2-2-3 with a fairly compared box in the middle to quickly pass in the way that gets forward best, or, the two central midfielders drop a little deeper (not ideal when Bojan is playing) and then Ince & McClean come more central with the full backs then pushing up a little further and the team becomes something far more fluid, as you've then suddenly got 6 players who are moving in positions awkward to pick up for the opposition. It's not overly complicated, awkward movement is the way teams are breaking down the well established defending we've seen over the last 20 years. I wasn't around to see it first hand, but we're at a point where it seems like the 70's. Attacking football is again the stronger. We saw 10 years ago the defensive side of the game surpassed the calm, measured, "positive", build-up that had made Arsenal so strong under Wenger. Rowett actually has our build up play a lot like a budget version of Wenger, and has us defend like a poorly implemented version of Pulis (or in fact, how often does our defending look like that of Arsenal during those years, with comical mistakes out of nowhere?) But our pace is top heavy, and you don't want players running around like headless chickens for 90 minutes, but just being higher up the pitch can put so much pressure on opponents. Not to mention, our fullbacks aren't horribly slow, our centrehalves lack the speed but then you make sure the fullbacks are aware of their job. They have to get back fastest to slow counters, but I can't say too much about Williams, but Indi isn't that slow when he's sprinting. It used to be the same with Shawcross and Huth in years gone by, that Pulis did well. Other players would cover to slow the attack while they sprinted back to position, because in a straight line, without a ball/opponent to worry about they could shift themselves quickly. They never had the quick feet, or over 10 yards pace, but were always quick enough over 30 yards. These days we have McClean who can chase, Ince, Allen, Woods who are all quite quick and in most situations they could be at least making a nuisance to slow attacks down and give others the chance to regain position. Some great tactical analysis in your two posts. Do you think we could overcome some of our defensive deficiencies if we went 343 and played Martina and Pieters either side of Bruno (or Ryan) at the back, with Bauer/Edwards and McClean/Clucas (latter when/if ever fit) as wing backs either side of Woods and Etebo/Allen, with Saido/Diouf/Bojan alongside Afobe and Ince up front? To my mind, this would give us more pace and cover at the back, so we are less exposed to the break away or long ball over the top, reduce the need for Woods to drop deep (as there would be three, not two, behind him), so he can play on the front foot and dictate our tempo of play, and more support for the frequently isolated Afobe. The support forwards could play more narrow (effectively inside forwards) as the width would come from the wing backs, who are key to making this system work. If we are under the cosh, the wing backs can drop back and make a 5, and the wide attackers could make a four in the midfield, but going forward you almost have an attacking five, with the wing backs bombing on and the two supporting Afobe more centrally. |
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Post by scfc75 on Oct 25, 2018 13:22:49 GMT
What if the new man comes in and we’re no better after 14 games? Sack him too? I’m not saying we shouldn’t consider our options but it’s clear the problems go beyond the manager. Bringing a new guy in will not make us better overnight. Sack anyone who’s not good enough. if it were your business how long would you wait? Until you went broke? So keep cycling through managers at the rate of 3 a season until something sticks. Got it. |
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) but that's what this season has become. If people are happy with that, fine. The choice is do nothing and hope or change something and try. But if so do it now, not in Jan.
