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Post by oslostokie1 on Oct 8, 2018 12:47:34 GMT
I appreciate all he’s done but he’s had his time,I know Williams is an accident waiting to happen but he’s a lot more fluid than Ryan and buzzes about far more and seems to offer options.Basically he’s more mobile. He is half the defender Ryan is! Can't mark an opponent and losing challenges in the box because he isn't strong enough. People who say he is a better passer of the ball must be looking up in the air most of the time as they certainly can't be watching the games! I would love to see some statistics on misplaced passes and not least passes leading to goalscoring opportunities for the opponents. Williams is a liability and has made more mistakes than Ryan despite playing less minutes on the pitch. OK, he had a decent game against Norwich, but that really was the only full game where we could say he played well. 2 clean sheets Sorry if this does not fit your agenda
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Post by robwahlmann on Oct 8, 2018 12:58:54 GMT
He is half the defender Ryan is! Can't mark an opponent and losing challenges in the box because he isn't strong enough. People who say he is a better passer of the ball must be looking up in the air most of the time as they certainly can't be watching the games! I would love to see some statistics on misplaced passes and not least passes leading to goalscoring opportunities for the opponents. Williams is a liability and has made more mistakes than Ryan despite playing less minutes on the pitch. OK, he had a decent game against Norwich, but that really was the only full game where we could say he played well. 2 clean sheets Sorry if this does not fit your agenda Agenda!? When I see a shit defender I see a shit defender! I've seen Williams for Everton in many games and you could certainly ask the Evertonians for their opinion! Yes, two clean sheets, but that doesn't really tell the whole story here. If you watched the Bolton game, did you?, he lost his man early on who really should have done better and we would have been one down. He also made a terrible clearance in the first half where their player would have been clean through if Woods hadn't been so awake and able to cover his ass. Too hot headed again I'd say. And finally we can speak about their disallowed goal which would have stood in many games, who wasn't strong enough to keep his man away from the ball and losing the challenge in the end? Williams was very lucky to not be the scapegoat for another game in my opinion. Do you want me to analyse his contribution in the Rotherham game or the Nottingham game as well? If you have an agenda every time you critisise a player for not doing his job when he obviously isn't, yes, then I have an agenda!
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 8, 2018 13:05:46 GMT
2 clean sheets Sorry if this does not fit your agenda Agenda!? When I see a shit defender I see a shit defender! I've seen Williams for Everton in many games and you could certainly ask the Evertonians for their opinion! Yes, two clean sheets, but that doesn't really tell the whole story here. If you watched the Bolton game, did you?, he lost his man early on who really should have done better and we would have been one down. He also made a terrible clearance in the first half where their player would have been clean through if Woods hadn't been so awake and able to cover his ass. Too hot headed again I'd say. And finally we can speak about their disallowed goal which would have stood in many games, who wasn't strong enough to keep his man away from the ball and losing the challenge in the end? Williams was very lucky to not be the scapegoat for another game in my opinion. Do you want me to analyse his contribution in the Rotherham game as well? If you have an agenda every time you critisise a player for not doing his job when he obviously isn't, yes, then I have an agenda! If the manager hadn't made such a song and dance about Shawcross before the Rotherham game he should have dropped Williams for being at fault for both their goals but having done that he now has to stick to Williams to prove a point, Shawcross is a better player than Williams lets see if Rowett gives him another chance if not I can see him leaving in January as we all know one manager who will want him...
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Post by robwahlmann on Oct 8, 2018 13:09:46 GMT
Agenda!? When I see a shit defender I see a shit defender! I've seen Williams for Everton in many games and you could certainly ask the Evertonians for their opinion! Yes, two clean sheets, but that doesn't really tell the whole story here. If you watched the Bolton game, did you?, he lost his man early on who really should have done better and we would have been one down. He also made a terrible clearance in the first half where their player would have been clean through if Woods hadn't been so awake and able to cover his ass. Too hot headed again I'd say. And finally we can speak about their disallowed goal which would have stood in many games, who wasn't strong enough to keep his man away from the ball and losing the challenge in the end? Williams was very lucky to not be the scapegoat for another game in my opinion. Do you want me to analyse his contribution in the Rotherham game as well? If you have an agenda every time you critisise a player for not doing his job when he obviously isn't, yes, then I have an agenda! If the manager hadn't made such a song and dance about Shawcross before the Rotherham game he should have dropped Williams for being at fault for both their goals but having done that he now has to stick to Williams to prove a point, Shawcross is a better player than Williams lets see if Rowett gives him another chance if not I can see him leaving in January as we all know one manager who will want him... ... because that manager is able to spot a bloody good defender. I really hope Rowett realises this before it's too late!
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Post by jeycov on Oct 8, 2018 14:16:26 GMT
Although all 3 of our CBS are probably past their best, interestingly, Of all those Crouch has played against, he names Ryan as the toughest ( in his recent book) Still underrated imo
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Post by robwahlmann on Oct 8, 2018 15:06:44 GMT
Although all 3 of our CBS are probably past their best, interestingly, Of all those Crouch has played against, he names Ryan as the toughest ( in his recent book) Still underrated imo Indi is only 26 and should really have the best 5 years in front of him.
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Post by oslostokie1 on Oct 8, 2018 15:14:54 GMT
2 clean sheets Sorry if this does not fit your agenda Agenda!? When I see a shit defender I see a shit defender! I've seen Williams for Everton in many games and you could certainly ask the Evertonians for their opinion! Yes, two clean sheets, but that doesn't really tell the whole story here. If you watched the Bolton game, did you?, he lost his man early on who really should have done better and we would have been one down. He also made a terrible clearance in the first half where their player would have been clean through if Woods hadn't been so awake and able to cover his ass. Too hot headed again I'd say. And finally we can speak about their disallowed goal which would have stood in many games, who wasn't strong enough to keep his man away from the ball and losing the challenge in the end? Williams was very lucky to not be the scapegoat for another game in my opinion. Do you want me to analyse his contribution in the Rotherham game or the Nottingham game as well? If you have an agenda every time you critisise a player for not doing his job when he obviously isn't, yes, then I have an agenda! Yes, I was at the Bolton game and he did perfectly fine. I think it's pretty sad when you go into the minutiae of a game to try to prove a point. As I said, 2 clean sheets are all that matters. The whole defence looks far more settled, also Butland. Nevertheless, I will allow you to wallow in self-gratification when we next concede a goal with him on the pitch so you can be proven right. Hopefully Ryan will then come back the stronger and more determined to prove a point. I have far from given up on him.
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Post by robwahlmann on Oct 8, 2018 19:03:03 GMT
Agenda!? When I see a shit defender I see a shit defender! I've seen Williams for Everton in many games and you could certainly ask the Evertonians for their opinion! Yes, two clean sheets, but that doesn't really tell the whole story here. If you watched the Bolton game, did you?, he lost his man early on who really should have done better and we would have been one down. He also made a terrible clearance in the first half where their player would have been clean through if Woods hadn't been so awake and able to cover his ass. Too hot headed again I'd say. And finally we can speak about their disallowed goal which would have stood in many games, who wasn't strong enough to keep his man away from the ball and losing the challenge in the end? Williams was very lucky to not be the scapegoat for another game in my opinion. Do you want me to analyse his contribution in the Rotherham game or the Nottingham game as well? If you have an agenda every time you critisise a player for not doing his job when he obviously isn't, yes, then I have an agenda! Yes, I was at the Bolton game and he did perfectly fine. I think it's pretty sad when you go into the minutiae of a game to try to prove a point. As I said, 2 clean sheets are all that matters. The whole defence looks far more settled, also Butland. Nevertheless, I will allow you to wallow in self-gratification when we next concede a goal with him on the pitch so you can be proven right. Hopefully Ryan will then come back the stronger and more determined to prove a point. I have far from given up on him. I never feel any pleasure when I see Stoke concede a goal, and it doesn't matter who makes the mistake either! That's why I want Williams out of the team, to prevent it from happening more often than necessary. A bit amazed that you seem to know a lot about my personality as this is the second time today you strongly indicate something about me! Maybe you think you are/or are a shrink or something? Anyway I would appreciate that you stop telling me things about what is my agenda or how I will feel about things. I simply want the best for Stoke and that's why I want to leave the shittest players out, and in my opinion Williams is one of them and Fletcher is another one if you need more food for thought!
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Post by musik on Oct 9, 2018 0:39:18 GMT
Williams? One of the slowest defenders I've seen at this level.
Why do central defenders always have to be so slow?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 9, 2018 7:36:08 GMT
Williams? One of the slowest defenders I've seen at this level. Why do central defenders always have to be so slow? Because the tradegy of central defenders is that they only really understand the job at the point their bodies are on the wane. On the whole young central defenders - even the best - are a mistake waiting to happen. The young ones that look any good are those who tend to have an old lag by their side telling them what to do. Both Williams and Shawcross are coming towards the end of their career and they are about on the same level. At the moment I'd go for Williams as he hasn't got the baggage of last season and it gives Woods to establish himself as captain.
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Post by potterspele on Oct 9, 2018 8:32:26 GMT
Shawcross is a strong character. Everyone talks about him being on the decline and that is probably true but we have also seen him put in a few great performances in spite of that albeit not as frequent as he used to do.
Personally I think it's more to do with form and he is definitely still capable of playing in the first team. Keeping him out for a few weeks may well do him the world of good and give him some motivation to come back better. I don't think it's a case of whether Williams is a better player, more just an opportunity to give Shawcross some time away to get back to his best.
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Post by onefatcopper on Oct 9, 2018 8:43:18 GMT
Although all 3 of our CBS are probably past their best, interestingly, Of all those Crouch has played against, he names Ryan as the toughest ( in his recent book) Still underrated imo Indi is only 26 and should really have the best 5 years in front of him. Ryan is 30/31 ? he should be entering the best phase of his career, he’s had problems with his back, lacks mobility, confidence seems shot ? BUT the greatest thing that Ryan has and should be utilising is his experience. Just take a look at some of Stokes central defenders of the past, most had lost,or never had pace, Smith,Doyle,Watson,Overson,Taggert,Huth etc none had exceptional pace but all compensated for this by using their experience to Read the game. All the greatest defenders have or had injuries, it’s like a badge of honour to them, and I don’t believe that Ryan’s back problems can be constantly rolled out as a excuse for his recent mistakes ! With luck,Our defensive unit seems to be clicking and the clean sheets are there reward, but if Ryan does get a second chance he’s got to grab it with both hands and start using that memory bank, it will help him with his positioning, spatial awareness and organisatial skills. One of the greatest defenders and a example to all centre backs with no pace was Paul McGrath, Ryan should study the Irishman and watch how he could read the game !
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Post by skip on Oct 9, 2018 9:01:55 GMT
Agree regarding McGrath. Few if any in the 90s read the game better from the back.
Handy pool player too btw.
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Post by robwahlmann on Oct 9, 2018 9:04:55 GMT
Indi is only 26 and should really have the best 5 years in front of him. Ryan is 30/31 ? he should be entering the best phase of his career, he’s had problems with his back, lacks mobility, confidence seems shot ? BUT the greatest thing that Ryan has and should be utilising is his experience. Just take a look at some of Stokes central defenders of the past, most had lost,or never had pace, Smith,Doyle,Watson,Overson,Taggert,Huth etc none had exceptional pace but all compensated for this by using their experience to Read the game. All the greatest defenders have or had injuries, it’s like a badge of honour to them, and I don’t believe that Ryan’s back problems can be constantly rolled out as a excuse for his recent mistakes ! With luck,Our defensive unit seems to be clicking and the clean sheets are there reward, but if Ryan does get a second chance he’s got to grab it with both hands and start using that memory bank, it will help him with his positioning, spatial awareness and organisatial skills. One of the greatest defenders and a example to all centre backs with no pace was Paul McGrath, Ryan should study the Irishman and watch how he could read the game ! I don't think many on this messageboard rate Ryan much higher than me! Still I don't think he'll last more than 2-3 seasons because of the injuries he has been struggling with, hope I'm wrong though!
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Post by iglugluk on Oct 9, 2018 10:23:08 GMT
A spell on the bench might serve to provoke better performances from Ryan, hopefully. Williams is without doubt a better passer but Ryan remains a superior defender. That said we still desperately need another first team cb in January.
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Post by robwahlmann on Oct 9, 2018 11:33:10 GMT
A spell on the bench might serve to provoke better performances from Ryan, hopefully. Williams is without doubt a better passer but Ryan remains a superior defender. That said we still desperately need another first team cb in January. I really struggle to see why some people see Williams as a better passer of the ball? In addition his passes are often more risky and not so calculated in my opinion.
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Post by metalhead on Oct 9, 2018 11:34:41 GMT
A spell on the bench might serve to provoke better performances from Ryan, hopefully. Williams is without doubt a better passer but Ryan remains a superior defender. That said we still desperately need another first team cb in January. I reckon Ryan will come back better This kind of thing always motivates players to work harder.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 11:35:48 GMT
A spell on the bench might serve to provoke better performances from Ryan, hopefully. Williams is without doubt a better passer but Ryan remains a superior defender. That said we still desperately need another first team cb in January. I really struggle to see why some people see Williams as a better passer of the ball? In addition his passes are often more risky and not so calculated in my opinion. I definitely think Williams' passing is good, he looks much more composed on the ball. Slow, clumsy and often doesn't look fully in control in the challenge though. I'd be looking at someone young, fast and good on the ball to partner Ryan/BMI in January.
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Shawcross
Oct 9, 2018 11:38:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by thehoof on Oct 9, 2018 11:38:17 GMT
He is half the defender Ryan is! Can't mark an opponent and losing challenges in the box because he isn't strong enough. People who say he is a better passer of the ball must be looking up in the air most of the time as they certainly can't be watching the games! I would love to see some statistics on misplaced passes and not least passes leading to goalscoring opportunities for the opponents. Williams is a liability and has made more mistakes than Ryan despite playing less minutes on the pitch. OK, he had a decent game against Norwich, but that really was the only full game where we could say he played well. 2 clean sheets Sorry if this does not fit your agenda Bolton were scared of their own shadow and wouldn’t have scored against a team of 12 year olds. An Everton season ticket holder accompanied me to the Bolton game and he certainly would have fun with your view of Williams. Having said that he had his best game against Norwich.
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Post by mamasgloves on Oct 9, 2018 11:43:27 GMT
If the manager hadn't made such a song and dance about Shawcross before the Rotherham game he should have dropped Williams for being at fault for both their goals but having done that he now has to stick to Williams to prove a point, Shawcross is a better player than Williams lets see if Rowett gives him another chance if not I can see him leaving in January as we all know one manager who will want him... ... because that manager is able to spot a bloody good defender. I really hope Rowett realises this before it's too late! He does find some good ones, though he also got plenty wrong - Sonko, Davies, Collins, Wilson, Woodgate
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Post by robwahlmann on Oct 9, 2018 14:00:29 GMT
... because that manager is able to spot a bloody good defender. I really hope Rowett realises this before it's too late! He does find some good ones, though he also got plenty wrong - Sonko, Davies, Collins, Wilson, Woodgate I think the two first mentionen were brought in because we struggled to get any decent ones in as we were favourites to go down. Collins was a let down as he actually had done quite well for Sland and TP always seemed to have a soft spot for former top players like Woodgate. I must say I think Wilson served us well, especially if you compare his contribution to some other players we have had since. Very versatile as well.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Oct 9, 2018 14:16:44 GMT
Williams looks seriously unfit to me he’s also easily pushed off the ball.
Liability waiting to happen.
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Shawcross
Oct 9, 2018 15:37:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Oct 9, 2018 15:37:08 GMT
Agree regarding McGrath. Few if any in the 90s read the game better from the back. Handy pool player too btw. He was a player I admired too! A no nonsense player who despite his lack of pace was able to handle strikers left, right and centre! I’m sure his knees were shot too and could hardly train too, yet still performed at the top level easily! An underrated bloody great defender!
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Post by onefatcopper on Oct 9, 2018 17:55:28 GMT
Agree regarding McGrath. Few if any in the 90s read the game better from the back. Handy pool player too btw. He was a player I admired too! A no nonsense player who despite his lack of pace was able to handle strikers left, right and centre! I’m sure his knees were shot too and could hardly train too, yet still performed at the top level easily! An underrated bloody great defender! He found the finest medicine for his knee problems, several pints of Guinness did the trick !
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Post by iglugluk on Oct 9, 2018 19:16:22 GMT
A spell on the bench might serve to provoke better performances from Ryan, hopefully. Williams is without doubt a better passer but Ryan remains a superior defender. That said we still desperately need another first team cb in January. I really struggle to see why some people see Williams as a better passer of the ball? In addition his passes are often more risky and not so calculated in my opinion. well you're right it is all a matter of opinion Rob I've noticed Williams make a few attacking passes that, I reckon, ShawX wouldn't have seen. That said........ I prefer Ryan in the Stoke colours any time.
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Post by onyourbonce on Oct 9, 2018 19:18:47 GMT
Just goin back to the OP, shawcross may be back in a few games as Williams has an error or 2 in him. So has Ryan. I’m sure if we had more adequate centre backs neither would play. He’s been fantastic for us over the years not taking anythin away from the bloke. But what I will say is it seems to have helped the team having a different “leader” out on the pitch. Ryan is the first one to down tools these days when the going gets tough and the team follows suit. Must keep it as it is at the minute.
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Post by iglugluk on Oct 9, 2018 19:19:36 GMT
A spell on the bench might serve to provoke better performances from Ryan, hopefully. Williams is without doubt a better passer but Ryan remains a superior defender. That said we still desperately need another first team cb in January. I reckon Ryan will come back better This kind of thing always motivates players to work harder. Absolutely......I don't see him as the kind of guy who'll just sink into depressed obscurity.
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Shawcross
Oct 9, 2018 19:54:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by pb1863 on Oct 9, 2018 19:54:19 GMT
Interesting to see on the bbc site Allen saying his Welsh colleague Williams is back to his best - “He's made a big difference to us in recent weeks."
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Shawcross
Oct 9, 2018 20:13:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by RF10 on Oct 9, 2018 20:13:40 GMT
... because that manager is able to spot a bloody good defender. I really hope Rowett realises this before it's too late! He does find some good ones, though he also got plenty wrong - Sonko, Davies, Collins, Wilson, Woodgate I would hardly call Wilson being a bad signing. He played for us 146 times.
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Shawcross
Oct 9, 2018 20:57:47 GMT
via mobile
Post by metalhead on Oct 9, 2018 20:57:47 GMT
... because that manager is able to spot a bloody good defender. I really hope Rowett realises this before it's too late! He does find some good ones, though he also got plenty wrong - Sonko, Davies, Collins, Wilson, Woodgate I disagree with Wilson and Woodgate.
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