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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:13:57 GMT
Was I? That’s good to know. I thought we were discussing who had their hand on the wheel? I never said there was a lack of blame on the transfer team. Just that the blame might be spread around a bit rather than focused in one place. Eh..? You were talking about them being a "lightning rod" weren't you.? Did you miss the bit where I said I thought they were clearly incompetent? I think they have to shoulder a lot of the blame. Just not all of it.
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Post by Gods on Aug 18, 2018 22:14:33 GMT
It all has a degree of credibility about it with the type of signings we’ve made. Coates has had his moment in the sun and does not have the appetite to get us back up. He is reverting to type and the incompetence of Scholes and fat boy shields him from this. Soon fans will be resigned to floating between the Championship and League One with expectations only ever managed downwards. That’s ok though because Stoke fans will take this shit all day long without a grumble.....remember, it’s a scary world if you aspire to better and we must keep praying to the sun god Coates. I think the trouble is there is a £50 million hole in the budget since we weren't able to sell Butland, Imbula or Wimmer. And when we couldn't in the case of Imbula and Wimmer old Rowett didn't want to try and get a tune out of them and just wanted them gone.
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 18, 2018 22:14:35 GMT
Makes perfect sense if true.
If you were Rowett, you'd surely want to change the whole bloody team from last year! (And some sales like Bauer might make sense from the perspective of raising funds, as the deadwood was so dead that it was either sell a few decent players or keep the same team).
We needed 10-12 out this summer, and the TITs managed to offload 1: i.e. 21yr old Sobhi for 26yr Ince (who'd scored less, was older, showed less promise to evolve and less marketing value for a c5m net outlay).
They then paid OTT for a few others. That was their contribution. Thereafter, Rowett wanted his players ready for Germany but they failed to land many of his main targets and are now running about 4-5 weeks late as we speak, back to the modus operandi of desparate chases at a time the focus should be on honing the team. It means Rowett has had only 'live games' to optimise his system and the TITs have wasted another 5,6 games... ? before allowing Rowett to get a stable team. (I would imagine Beharinho is also a mandated inclusion. No manager would surely want someone as emotionally damaged, disruptive and useless).
Until Coates is relinquished of decision making, it will be dysfunctional. His heart may be in the right place, but his brain isn't. We need a Technical Director who can create a department that is able to do the absolutely critical jobs of scouting, recruitment, due diligence, contract management, negotiation, fitness, performance, youth development etc. Otherwise, we will be abusing managers who will inevitably fail, because they are working in an asylum of comfortable cronyism, ignorance, blame projection, a poverty of standards and accountability and denial.
(PS: TIT = transfer implementation team)
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 18, 2018 22:14:37 GMT
You were discussing the influence and lack of blame on the CEO and the DOF not the appointment of the Gary Rowett. Son and Father have been known to play political games in business. Perhaps Junior had his fingers burnt in the Continental fiasco. Was I? That’s good to know. I thought we were discussing who had their hand on the wheel? I never said there was a lack of blame on the transfer team. Just that the blame might be spread around a bit rather than focused in one place. Presume you were saying by "lightning rod" that they were taking all the blame. Yes .. absolutely. Still think that JC has his hands on the steering wheel.
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 18, 2018 22:22:50 GMT
Eh..? You were talking about them being a "lightning rod" weren't you.? Did you miss the bit where I said I thought they were clearly incompetent? I think they have to shoulder a lot of the blame. Just not all of it. Yes.. I totally agree with you about the CEO and DoF It is a blanket that the owners and management can hide under. My main point of this discussion is that it is John Coates who is giving them this cloak of invincibility. As long as that persists we will not progress as a football club. I get the feeling that Peter and to a certain degree his daughter are getting extremely agitated by John's actions.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:26:38 GMT
Makes perfect sense if true. If you were Rowett, you'd surely want to change the whole bloody team from last year! (And some sales like Bauer might make sense from the perspective of raising funds, as the deadwood was so dead that it was either sell a few decent players or keep the same team). We needed 10-12 out this summer, and the TITs managed to offload 1: i.e. 21yr old Sobhi for 26yr Ince (who'd scored less, was older, showed less promise to evolve and less marketing value) for a net outlay of c6m. They then paid OTT for a few others. That was their contribution. Thereafter, Rowett wanted his players ready for Germany but they failed to land many of his main targets and are now running about 4-5 weeks late as we speak, back to the modus operandi of desparate chases at a time the focus should be on honing the team. It means Rowett has had only 'live games' to optimise his system and the TITs have wasted another 5,6 games... ? before allowing Rowett to get a stable team. (I would imagine Beharinho is also a mandated inclusion. No manager would surely want someone as emotionally damaged, disruptive and useless). Until Coates is relinquished of decision making, it will be dysfunctional. His heart may be in the right place, but his brain isn't. We need a Technical Director who can create a department that is able to do the absolutely critical jobs of scouting, recruitment, due diligence, contract management, negotiation, fitness, performance, youth development etc. Otherwise, we will be abusing managers who will inevitably fail, because they are working in an asylum of comfortable cronyism, ignorance, blame projection, a poverty of standards and accountability and denial. (PS: TIT = transfer implementation team) If our targets were Ritchie and Chester though, nobody in our league was going to land them, were they?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:27:57 GMT
Was I? That’s good to know. I thought we were discussing who had their hand on the wheel? I never said there was a lack of blame on the transfer team. Just that the blame might be spread around a bit rather than focused in one place. Presume you were saying by "lightning rod" that they were taking all the blame. Yes .. absolutely. Still think that JC has his hands on the steering wheel. Yes, by lightning rod, they’re taking 100% of the blame. I don’t think it’s 100% on them.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:28:43 GMT
Did you miss the bit where I said I thought they were clearly incompetent? I think they have to shoulder a lot of the blame. Just not all of it. Yes.. I totally agree with you about the CEO and DoF It is a blanket that the owners and management can hide under. My main point of this discussion is that it is John Coates who is giving them this cloak of invincibility. As long as that persists we will not progress as a football club. I get the feeling that Peter and to a certain degree his daughter are getting extremely agitated by John's actions. If that’s the case, what’s stopping Peter from stepping in?
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 18, 2018 22:29:31 GMT
Makes perfect sense if true. If you were Rowett, you'd surely want to change the whole bloody team from last year! (And some sales like Bauer might make sense from the perspective of raising funds, as the deadwood was so dead that it was either sell a few decent players or keep the same team). We needed 10-12 out this summer, and the TITs managed to offload 1: i.e. 21yr old Sobhi for 26yr Ince (who'd scored less, was older, showed less promise to evolve and less marketing value) for a net outlay of c6m. They then paid OTT for a few others. That was their contribution. Thereafter, Rowett wanted his players ready for Germany but they failed to land many of his main targets and are now running about 4-5 weeks late as we speak, back to the modus operandi of desparate chases at a time the focus should be on honing the team. It means Rowett has had only 'live games' to optimise his system and the TITs have wasted another 5,6 games... ? before allowing Rowett to get a stable team. (I would imagine Beharinho is also a mandated inclusion. No manager would surely want someone as emotionally damaged, disruptive and useless). Until Coates is relinquished of decision making, it will be dysfunctional. His heart may be in the right place, but his brain isn't. We need a Technical Director who can create a department that is able to do the absolutely critical jobs of scouting, recruitment, due diligence, contract management, negotiation, fitness, performance, youth development etc. Otherwise, we will be abusing managers who will inevitably fail, because they are working in an asylum of comfortable cronyism, ignorance, blame projection, a poverty of standards and accountability and denial. (PS: TIT = transfer implementation team) If our targets were Ritchie and Chester though, nobody in our league was going to land them, were they? As i can recall, Cartwright's had his job described in the Sentinel article as (paraphrased) - "I knock on doors and find out if players want to join or not." He must have a very slow knock.
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Post by PolPotter on Aug 18, 2018 22:31:29 GMT
What qualifications does Clive Clarke have in relation to the OP's post?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:31:42 GMT
If our targets were Ritchie and Chester though, nobody in our league was going to land them, were they? As i can recall, Cartwright's had his job described in the Sentinel article as (paraphrased) - "I knock on doors and find out if players want to join or not." He must have a very slow knock. He can knock faster than Woody Woodpecker, if they’re not coming, they’re not coming. Ritchie is starting games in the Premier League.
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 18, 2018 22:34:55 GMT
Yes.. I totally agree with you about the CEO and DoF It is a blanket that the owners and management can hide under. My main point of this discussion is that it is John Coates who is giving them this cloak of invincibility. As long as that persists we will not progress as a football club. I get the feeling that Peter and to a certain degree his daughter are getting extremely agitated by John's actions. If that’s the case, what’s stopping Peter from stepping in? Perhaps he prefers watching Emmerdale box set with a case of Gran Reserve Rioja He is 80 ... and perhaps thinks his time for crucial decision making is nearing the end.
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 18, 2018 22:35:07 GMT
As i can recall, Cartwright's had his job described in the Sentinel article as (paraphrased) - "I knock on doors and find out if players want to join or not." He must have a very slow knock. He can knock faster than Woody Woodpecker, if they’re not coming, they’re not coming. Ritchie is starting games in the Premier League. So, he finds that out about Chester, and Williams arrives 3 months later? Ince, granted, was a fast enough response to the Ritchie knock-back. He's a good player for this league. They overpaid by 4m-5m though, based on Sobhi.
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Post by Gods on Aug 18, 2018 22:36:00 GMT
At some point either Peter or John are going to have to summarily haul Rowett in to their office and tell him to stop moaning his bag off like a 6 year old child who didn't get all the presents he wanted at Xmas and get on with producing some results, he has more than enough talent at his disposal to make a challenge this season.
Rowett is fond of telling the world he wasn't backed with big money at Burton as you would expect, then at Birmingham and apparently not at Derby either. He is starting to look like the common denominator in all of this. I am coming to realise he's a serial moaner.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 18, 2018 22:36:14 GMT
If Clarke does know GR well, we’ll enough (we must consider) for GR to unload these truths to him, then it is fair to posit that GR knew Clive would relay this to us supporters. Perhaps he even implied that is what should happen. Otherwise, if GR didn’t want this outing then Clarkey can forget being on the Christmas card list! Maybe this is a way that GR wants us to know the score but also perhaps he wants things to change! Surely he'd just quit before the season even started and make it very clear why if he's being told no and having players brought in without his say so.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:36:26 GMT
If that’s the case, what’s stopping Peter from stepping in? Perhaps he prefers watching Emmerdale box set with a case of Gran Reserve Rioja He is 80 ... and perhaps thinks his time for crucial decision making is nearing the end. He doesn’t strike me as that type. If that was the case you’d think he wouldn’t be constantly spouting off in the press.
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Post by Kjones9 on Aug 18, 2018 22:38:01 GMT
At some point either Peter or John are going to have to summarily haul Rowett in to their office and tell him to stop moaning his bag off like a 6 year old child who didn't get all the presents he wanted at Xmas and get on with producing some results, he has more than enough talent at his disposal to make a challenge this season. Rowett is fond of telling the world he wasn't backed with big money at Burton as you would expect, then at Birmingham and apparently not at Derby either. He is starting to look like the common denominator in all of this. More lies Godfrey, not like you being alternative with the truth.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 18, 2018 22:38:01 GMT
He can knock faster than Woody Woodpecker, if they’re not coming, they’re not coming. Ritchie is starting games in the Premier League. So, he finds that out about Chester, and Williams arrives 3 months later? Ince, granted, was a fast enough response to the Ritchie knock-back. He's a good player for this league. They overpaid by 4m-5m though, based on Sobhi. He's a much much better player than Sobhi, I think we payed the right money tbh.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:38:15 GMT
He can knock faster than Woody Woodpecker, if they’re not coming, they’re not coming. Ritchie is starting games in the Premier League. So, he finds that out about Chester, and Williams arrives 3 months later? Ince, granted, was a fast enough response to the Ritchie knock-back. He's a good player for this league. They overpaid by 4m-5m though, based on Sobhi. It wasn’t three months though, was it? If Ince was the player the manager wanted, would they not have copped some flak if they hadn’t paid what was required?
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 18, 2018 22:38:58 GMT
Perhaps he prefers watching Emmerdale box set with a case of Gran Reserve Rioja He is 80 ... and perhaps thinks his time for crucial decision making is nearing the end. He doesn’t strike me as that type. If that was the case you’d think he wouldn’t be constantly spouting off in the press. Perhaps he's had too much Gran Reserve 😂 Age waits for no man.
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Post by Gods on Aug 18, 2018 22:39:56 GMT
At some point either Peter or John are going to have to summarily haul Rowett in to their office and tell him to stop moaning his bag off like a 6 year old child who didn't get all the presents he wanted at Xmas and get on with producing some results, he has more than enough talent at his disposal to make a challenge this season. Rowett is fond of telling the world he wasn't backed with big money at Burton as you would expect, then at Birmingham and apparently not at Derby either. He is starting to look like the common denominator in all of this. More lies Godfrey, not like you being alternative with the truth. He's one tiresome fucker, you'll agree with that much.
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Post by thevoid on Aug 18, 2018 22:43:07 GMT
Did you miss the bit where I said I thought they were clearly incompetent? I think they have to shoulder a lot of the blame. Just not all of it. Yes.. I totally agree with you about the CEO and DoF It is a blanket that the owners and management can hide under. My main point of this discussion is that it is John Coates who is giving them this cloak of invincibility. As long as that persists we will not progress as a football club. I get the feeling that Peter and to a certain degree his daughter are getting extremely agitated by John's actions. Why would John Coates do that though? What does he get to gain from it?
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Post by superheroantonius on Aug 18, 2018 22:46:19 GMT
I think no smoke without fire
I think GR wanted the same players gone has Lambert , and I think they are both right
To me it looks more and more like Hughes and the board got us relegated and not just Hughes
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 18, 2018 22:47:10 GMT
Yes.. I totally agree with you about the CEO and DoF It is a blanket that the owners and management can hide under. My main point of this discussion is that it is John Coates who is giving them this cloak of invincibility. As long as that persists we will not progress as a football club. I get the feeling that Peter and to a certain degree his daughter are getting extremely agitated by John's actions. Why would John Coates do that though? What does he get to gain from it? Not sure void. Power? It's an extremely potent drug to rich people.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:49:58 GMT
Why would John Coates do that though? What does he get to gain from it? Not sure void. Power? It's an extremely potent drug to rich people. So John Coates is drunk on power and Peter Coates is both annoyed about it but too old and drunk on wine to do anything about it. Have I summarised your thesis accurately?
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Post by CalgaryPotter on Aug 18, 2018 22:50:16 GMT
As I've said before, it's no mystery why we struggled to get a manager last season. It's the fucking transfer policy, stupid. I always thought it was a really strange comment from Hughes “who else is going to do it?”. People thought it was arrogance but it felt to me like a who else would put up with this set up? If there is any truth in what CC is saying then Hughes comment may have been what eventually got him sacked. He was quick in his praise of Southampton’s academy & transfer set up when he joined. A public dig at Stoke?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:52:46 GMT
As I've said before, it's no mystery why we struggled to get a manager last season. It's the fucking transfer policy, stupid. I always thought it was a really strange comment from Hughes “who else is going to do it?”. People thought it was arrogance but it felt to me like a who else would put up with this set up? If there is any truth in what CC is saying then Hughes comment may have been what eventually got him sacked. He was quick in his praise of Southampton’s academy & transfer set up when he joined. A public dig at Stoke? But that specific praise was that he didn’t have to lead as much on transfers and that at other clubs the transfers were left too much to him...
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 18, 2018 22:53:06 GMT
So, he finds that out about Chester, and Williams arrives 3 months later? Ince, granted, was a fast enough response to the Ritchie knock-back. He's a good player for this league. They overpaid by 4m-5m though, based on Sobhi. He's a much much better player than Sobhi, I think we payed the right money tbh. Sobhi was a player globally touted as a wonderkid in 2016. Even in 2017, with us, he was being touted as a "wonderkid", and interesting Liverpool. He became an established international and now has 28 caps for the African runners up. I like Ince so am not knocking him... but in 1 season in the premiership, ihe probably demonstrated why he doesn't belong there. But according to us, his value went up 4m, such that he is worth double Sobhi's. What's happened here?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 18, 2018 22:57:51 GMT
He's a much much better player than Sobhi, I think we payed the right money tbh. Sobhi was a player globally touted as a wonderkid in 2016. Even in 2017, with us, he was being touted as a "wonderkid", and interesting Liverpool. He became an established international and now has 28 caps for the African runners up. I like Ince so am not knocking him... but in 1 season in the premiership, ihe probably demonstrated why he doesn't belong there. But according to us, his value went up 4m, such that he is worth double Sobhi's. What's happened here? We were relegated, Sobhi largely disappointed when he played and he and his agent pushed to leave?
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 18, 2018 23:02:53 GMT
So, he finds that out about Chester, and Williams arrives 3 months later? Ince, granted, was a fast enough response to the Ritchie knock-back. He's a good player for this league. They overpaid by 4m-5m though, based on Sobhi. It wasn’t three months though, was it? If Ince was the player the manager wanted, would they not have copped some flak if they hadn’t paid what was required? Well, Rowett arrives on 22 May. (He should really have arrived 5-13 May). Williams on 2 Aug. So, yes, you are right. More like a notch under 2.5. But if Chester was wanted from the offset, then its something that should have been determined by the end of May, if not the evening of the 22nd. As for Ince, the relative values between him and Sobhi are the bone of contention in that particular case, particularly given where Sobhi's star had been in 2017.
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