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Post by ColonelMustard on May 17, 2018 15:28:14 GMT
Its true the PA financially supports the families of people held under Israeli military law. Its an unusual situation to be illegally occupied and have anotger nation exercise military law over your people. Throwing a stone at an armoured vehicle is 20 years. People of all ages can be held without trial for many years, their families often losing their incomes. Israel often withholds Palestines taxes (Yes they don't even have sovereignty over their tax system), and did so when Palestine joined the ICC for instance. So aid is vital in this. Sadly I agree a lot is wasted as Israel demolishes and destroys much that is built as it wishes. In the last 10 years a couple of hundred Israelis have died at the hands of Palestinians, several thousand Palestinians have died at the hands of Israelis in the same period . Pretty much all of these on Palestinian land in 1967 terms. And by far the majority of those murdering Palestinians will not be tried or convicted in Israeli Courts. In any courts. Payments to people suffering under Israeli occupation I would refer you to Taylor force Force was attack and killed in a Palestinian attack while on holiday The attacker was killed by security forces The attackers family received a lump sum and are still getting a monthly salary In March this year, under the Taylor force provision, the US cut aid to Palestinian by 140 million ,which they claim is the amount paid by the PA annually, to Palestinians responsible for acts of terrorism and murder This 140 million is out of US aid only It does not take into account any stipend payments from aid received from elsewhere I have no doubt that there are some very nasty Palestinians tried in Israeli military courts. Bad people everywhere. Mind you I wouldnt want to live amongst Israeli settlers, the most aggressive people I have ever come across. Life is hard amongst then. Im amazed there aren't more Israelis murdered given the millions you are certain the perpetrators are getting. Palestinians seem to live in fear of the midnight raids and arbitrary incarceration, you'd think they'd be acting like they won the pools. And how come the murder rate is so high the other way? Makes no sense at all.
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Post by bringontheclowns on May 19, 2018 10:40:00 GMT
Hamas is terrorist organisation It has, and still does engage in terrorism Countries throughout the world deem it a terrorist organisation Swap hamas for Isis and Israel for Islamic caliphate, in the hamas charter, and you get jihad ,death and destruction, and death to all unbelievers Far from having a peaceful Palestinian state, you would have a state run by a terrorist group, controlled by Iran It would not be long before this state blamed the West, in particular, the uk, for all their troubles We all know what this would mean Show compassion, tolerance, sympathy for the Palestinians by all means But recent history tells us to expect terrorism , murder and bloodshed in return ,if they get what they want
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Post by bringontheclowns on May 19, 2018 15:51:24 GMT
Payments to people suffering under Israeli occupation I would refer you to Taylor force Force was attack and killed in a Palestinian attack while on holiday The attacker was killed by security forces The attackers family received a lump sum and are still getting a monthly salary In March this year, under the Taylor force provision, the US cut aid to Palestinian by 140 million ,which they claim is the amount paid by the PA annually, to Palestinians responsible for acts of terrorism and murder This 140 million is out of US aid only It does not take into account any stipend payments from aid received from elsewhere I have no doubt that there are some very nasty Palestinians tried in Israeli military courts. Bad people everywhere. Mind you I wouldnt want to live amongst Israeli settlers, the most aggressive people I have ever come across. Life is hard amongst then. Im amazed there aren't more Israelis murdered given the millions you are certain the perpetrators are getting. Palestinians seem to live in fear of the midnight raids and arbitrary incarceration, you'd think they'd be acting like they won the pools. And how come the murder rate is so high the other way? Makes no sense at all. Because of form and effective action by the idf, and Israeli security forces If you want to dispute these payments to terrorist and there families go ahead The 140 million was a fraction of one country’s aid to Palestine Out of this fraction , knock what you want off Take another 50% off Not enough Take 70% off Take 80%, Take 90% off Still leaves millions paid to terrorists, out of a fraction of one country’s aid to them
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Post by ColonelMustard on May 23, 2018 7:50:14 GMT
I have no doubt that there are some very nasty Palestinians tried in Israeli military courts. Bad people everywhere. Mind you I wouldnt want to live amongst Israeli settlers, the most aggressive people I have ever come across. Life is hard amongst then. Im amazed there aren't more Israelis murdered given the millions you are certain the perpetrators are getting. Palestinians seem to live in fear of the midnight raids and arbitrary incarceration, you'd think they'd be acting like they won the pools. And how come the murder rate is so high the other way? Makes no sense at all. Because of form and effective action by the idf, and Israeli security forces If you want to dispute these payments to terrorist and there families go ahead The 140 million was a fraction of one country’s aid to Palestine Out of this fraction , knock what you want off Take another 50% off Not enough Take 70% off Take 80%, Take 90% off Still leaves millions paid to terrorists, out of a fraction of one country’s aid to them I have no what you attempting to illustrate. Or dispute. But here's my tuppenceworth on your post. The Palestinian's do not control of their own borders (they dont really have any), customs, tax, money supply, building permits or even most of the land of internationally recognised Palestine. Much of the best farm land and resources have been settled. Surprisingly, they depend heavily on aid. Israel by the way gets nearly $4 billion dollars per year from the US in aid. Far in excess of the total that Palestinians get. Leaving them plenty not just to oppress the Palestinians but also invest in their illegal nuclear program and even chemical weapons as they are not signatories to international agreements. They have just boasted to being the first nation to use the F35 on two fronts. All with US dollars. Israel also gets more than double this in US loan guarantees and colonial settler charities that fund settlement projects in the West Bank, that really have helped see the absolute end of a possible 2 state solution, have tax exempt status in the US. Another subsidy. On the lack of murders being as a result of effective ops, Im sure you are aware that in the West Bank you can be amongst Israelis fairly easily. Area C is, the majority of it, is basically Israeli. If all you wajt to do us kill one, itd be very easy to get an an oportunity. Also the wall is porous. Palestinians so inclined sneak through all the time. Normally for love or work. Obviously the boot of a car is a better option for young uns than an older or more timid types. And if caught of course you're in trouble, but if all you want to do is kill someone, it's very doable. There is no shortage of opportunity to make this big money. In occupied East Jerusalem the mix is basically permanent too. And very aggressive from the Israeli side. Palestinians in general are patient beyond belief.
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Post by bringontheclowns on May 23, 2018 14:06:26 GMT
The point I’m making is quite clear Hamas is a terrorist group Your point about the West Bank illustrates this far better than I could Who controls the West Bank ? Fatah Why is the fatah controlled West Bank largely far more peaceful than the hamas controlled Gaza Strip No condemnation of Egypt ? Egypt has a border with Gaza, which is as firmly closed as Israel’s, why is that They did open it, but it didn’t end well did it. As for American aid to Israel, the Americans heavily subsidise NATO, but every member has it own , self funded military, the UK was, not that long ago, nothing more than a US aircraft carrier, yet we still had our own military Why do you think Israel is any different? It is quite capable of defending itself, and its own interests without us aid, and is regularly in the worlds top ten arms exporters $ 750 million on the iron dome air defence system, to defend against who exactly ?
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Post by ColonelMustard on May 23, 2018 14:58:53 GMT
The point I’m making is quite clear Hamas is a terrorist group Your point about the West Bank illustrates this far better than I could Who controls the West Bank ? Fatah Why is the fatah controlled West Bank largely far more peaceful than the hamas controlled Gaza Strip No condemnation of Egypt ? Egypt has a border with Gaza, which is as firmly closed as Israel’s, why is that They did open it, but it didn’t end well did it. As for American aid to Israel, the Americans heavily subsidise NATO, but every member has it own , self funded military, the UK was, not that long ago, nothing more than a US aircraft carrier, yet we still had our own military Why do you think Israel is any different? It is quite capable of defending itself, and its own interests without us aid, and is regularly in the worlds top ten arms exporters $ 750 million on the iron dome air defence system, to defend against who exactly ? Your original point was about PA aid, and the PA has always included the West Bank. Now your point is "Hamas are terrorists", they have been in power in Gaza since 2007 and often at odds with the PA. That's why I was unclear. There are lots of reasons for the differing tensions between the West Bank and Gaza but I guess the biggest is that in 2005 Israel decided the highly concentrated Palestinian demographic was never going to be worth the poor historical importance of the land so they withdrew and besieged it instead of colonizing it. Hamas are as much a symptom of this as anything else. The West Bank is much more significant and the creeping colonisation of area C means there might be more Gazas type conditions in area A and B on the way. There certainly can not be a Palestinian state. Things are not so peaceful in the WB, there are constant protests at new land theft or demolitions, its ongoing. Maybe not as newsworthy as Gazas sporadic slaughter. Eitger way I've met virtually no Palestinians that are happy with their leaders. What are their choices? Their disempowerment is absolute. As for NATO, Im sure you know Israel isnt even in it, so its irrelevant here. You were talking about the amount the PA gets in aid and I mentioned the amount Israel gets in aid, as it is relevant. Its a colossal amount.
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Post by bringontheclowns on May 23, 2018 19:24:38 GMT
I think you are confusing my views on the issue, with points I was trying to make My VIEW on the whole Palestinian state is, as stated above, is that it won’t turn out as many seem to think it will My POINT about the stipends is quite simply that you can not complain about how little they get, and at the same time, totally ingnore the fact that they have just lost 1/3 of said aid from their biggest contributor,through the terrorist activities of Palestinians . I stick by my nato reference I never said Israel were in nato I said that the US massively subsidies it Just like it gives billions of aid to Israel Yet , while people are quite willing to accept that the other nato states have quite capable military capabilities in their right,when it comes to Israel, they seem to think that It would collapse without American aid It won’t If you want to talk about American aid to Israel, you have to face up to the fact that it on equalpar ,militarily ,with some nato countries , even above some, in its own right Without any American aid
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Post by ColonelMustard on May 24, 2018 18:58:15 GMT
I think you are confusing my views on the issue, with points I was trying to make My VIEW on the whole Palestinian state is, as stated above, is that it won’t turn out as many seem to think it will My POINT about the stipends is quite simply that you can not complain about how little they get, and at the same time, totally ingnore the fact that they have just lost 1/3 of said aid from their biggest contributor,through the terrorist activities of Palestinians . I stick by my nato reference I never said Israel were in nato I said that the US massively subsidies it Just like it gives billions of aid to Israel Yet , while people are quite willing to accept that the other nato states have quite capable military capabilities in their right,when it comes to Israel, they seem to think that It would collapse without American aid It won’t If you want to talk about American aid to Israel, you have to face up to the fact that it on equalpar ,militarily ,with some nato countries , even above some, in its own right Without any American aid I agree it won't turn out as many think. Too many continue to think a two state solution is possible. Even desirable. Its no longer either. On your point, I wasn't complaining they don't have enough aid so that was with someone else. Fair enough. I do complain they are occupied, controlled and oppressed to the extent that they will probably always have to rely on aid. All under a laughable guise of respectability and plausible denial. That really does fuck me off.
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Post by bringontheclowns on May 25, 2018 0:07:03 GMT
I think you are confusing my views on the issue, with points I was trying to make My VIEW on the whole Palestinian state is, as stated above, is that it won’t turn out as many seem to think it will My POINT about the stipends is quite simply that you can not complain about how little they get, and at the same time, totally ingnore the fact that they have just lost 1/3 of said aid from their biggest contributor,through the terrorist activities of Palestinians . I stick by my nato reference I never said Israel were in nato I said that the US massively subsidies it Just like it gives billions of aid to Israel Yet , while people are quite willing to accept that the other nato states have quite capable military capabilities in their right,when it comes to Israel, they seem to think that It would collapse without American aid It won’t If you want to talk about American aid to Israel, you have to face up to the fact that it on equalpar ,militarily ,with some nato countries , even above some, in its own right Without any American aid I agree it won't turn out as many think. Too many continue to think a two state solution is possible. Even desirable. Its no longer either. On your point, I wasn't complaining they don't have enough aid so that was with someone else. Fair enough. I do complain they are occupied, controlled and oppressed to the extent that they will probably always have to rely on aid. All under a laughable guise of respectability and plausible denial. That really does fuck me off. I don’t think we should dismiss any solution, they should all be on the table, I just think the main obstacle to getting around the table is hamas The point about how much aid they get is debatable, but you will always come down on the side where you views lie What’s not debatable is that the whole system of aid to Palestinians is fundamentally flawed, obscene, and quite possibly, the crime of the century The numbers don’t add up Not even close Of the hundreds of millions, that allegedly goes in, and what actually hits the ground, are light years apart There is something very, very wrong happening here
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Post by wagsastokie on May 25, 2018 2:49:26 GMT
I agree it won't turn out as many think. Too many continue to think a two state solution is possible. Even desirable. Its no longer either. On your point, I wasn't complaining they don't have enough aid so that was with someone else. Fair enough. I do complain they are occupied, controlled and oppressed to the extent that they will probably always have to rely on aid. All under a laughable guise of respectability and plausible denial. That really does fuck me off. I don’t think we should dismiss any solution, they should all be on the table, I just think the main obstacle to getting around the table is hamas The point about how much aid they get is debatable, but you will always come down on the side where you views lie What’s not debatable is that the whole system of aid to Palestinians is fundamentally flawed, obscene, and quite possibly, the crime of the century The numbers don’t add up Not even close Of the hundreds of millions, that allegedly goes in, and what actually hits the ground, are light years apart There is something very, very wrong happening here The solution to the whole problem is the world to force Israel a country with a dubious right to exist to return to its original boarders Or the whole of the country could be absorbed into one with a full one man / woman one vote with all refugees given the right to return from Jordan and Lebanon To me it beggars belief that a country that claims to be the beacon of democracy in the region is incapable of practicing it fully
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Post by ColonelMustard on May 25, 2018 15:43:30 GMT
I agree it won't turn out as many think. Too many continue to think a two state solution is possible. Even desirable. Its no longer either. On your point, I wasn't complaining they don't have enough aid so that was with someone else. Fair enough. I do complain they are occupied, controlled and oppressed to the extent that they will probably always have to rely on aid. All under a laughable guise of respectability and plausible denial. That really does fuck me off. I don’t think we should dismiss any solution, they should all be on the table, I just think the main obstacle to getting around the table is hamas The point about how much aid they get is debatable, but you will always come down on the side where you views lie What’s not debatable is that the whole system of aid to Palestinians is fundamentally flawed, obscene, and quite possibly, the crime of the century The numbers don’t add up Not even close Of the hundreds of millions, that allegedly goes in, and what actually hits the ground, are light years apart There is something very, very wrong happening here Well if no solution is off the table, no matter how inpossible, then I guess a Palestinian state from the sea to the river must also be one. And demilitarized UN protectorate another. Its a big table. Although I think there are many bigger obstacles to peace, I cam admire your interest in Palestinian aid and how its spent. We all have our flag to fly and our issue to promote. I'm sure there are plenty of Palestinians that would welcome your help in scrutinizing the PA.
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Post by ColonelMustard on May 25, 2018 15:47:18 GMT
I don’t think we should dismiss any solution, they should all be on the table, I just think the main obstacle to getting around the table is hamas The point about how much aid they get is debatable, but you will always come down on the side where you views lie What’s not debatable is that the whole system of aid to Palestinians is fundamentally flawed, obscene, and quite possibly, the crime of the century The numbers don’t add up Not even close Of the hundreds of millions, that allegedly goes in, and what actually hits the ground, are light years apart There is something very, very wrong happening here The solution to the whole problem is the world to force Israel a country with a dubious right to exist to return to its original boarders Or the whole of the country could be absorbed into one with a full one man / woman one vote with all refugees given the right to return from Jordan and Lebanon To me it beggars belief that a country that claims to be the beacon of democracy in the region is incapable of practicing it fully Fwiw I think Palestinians best outcome is probably a one state with a civil rights movement. Trouble is Israel currently has it's cake and is eating it.
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