|
|
Post by Gods on Apr 17, 2018 2:09:37 GMT
To be clear I'm not asking did Hughes do an absolute shitter of a job in the last 2 years nor am I asking should be have been sacked last summer or the summer before that or indeed this summer regardless or where we finished.
I'm simply putting forward the hypothesis that he would somewhere, somehow have found say 2 wins in the last 10 matches particularly given the paucity of some of the opposition where tragically old Lambo has managed 0 wins, absolutely none at all.
And had he done so we would still, astonishingly, be in this fight.
Lambo's repeated mantra that 'had we played the way we have been since he arrived all season' then we would not be in the trouble we are in nor would he be here at all, simply doesn't stand up to even the most perfunctory analysis, it's quite clear and undeniable that we are getting worse in terms of points collected and at this stage nothing else matters.
To give a pontoon analogy for anyone that plays we 'twisted' on a poor hand of 16 and and went bust.
|
|
|
|
Post by pottarius on Apr 17, 2018 2:23:52 GMT
Looking back:
We kept Pulis 12mths too long
We kept Hughes 18mth too long
Looking to the future following that trend:
We will keep Lambert 24mths too long!
He's a likeable enough chap & I think he really is trying his best, but he's the footballing equivalent of Frank Bruno (lots of effort but no real strategy/skill)
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 2:45:59 GMT
I suspect had we kept hold of Hughes the players would've totally stopped playing for him and it would've been as bad as west brom not playing for pardew.
|
|
|
|
Post by StatesideStokie on Apr 17, 2018 2:46:04 GMT
To be clear I'm not asking did Hughes do an absolute shitter of a job in the last 2 years nor am I asking should be have been sacked last summer or the summer before that or indeed this summer regardless or where we finished. I'm simply putting forward the hypothesis that he would somewhere, somehow have found say 2 wins in the last 10 matches particularly given the paucity of some of the opposition where tragically old Lambo has managed 0 wins, absolutely none at all. And had he done so we would still, astonishingly, be in this fight. Lambo's repeated mantra that 'had we played the way we have been since he arrived all season' then we would not be in the trouble we are in nor would he be here at all, simply doesn't stand up to even the most perfunctory analysis, it's quite clear and undeniable that we are getting worse in terms of points collected and at this stage nothing else matters. To give a pontoon analogy for anyone that plays we 'twisted' on a poor hand of 16 and and went bust. I don’t think there was any way back for Hughes after the Coventry shambles, but I get your point. Would he have gotten more points than Lambert from the same games? We’ll never know, but the fact that we’re even entertaining the question tells you what an unmitigated disaster that Lambert has been. The real fuck-up was not so much the timing of the Hughes departure ( malthough he should have gone earlier) but the lack of any sort of planning for the transition. It was a scandalous lack of foresight at board level, on top of all the other issues that have been widely discussed. It was all so fucking avoidable. |
|
|
|
Post by Ex-term-oat-cake on Apr 17, 2018 2:51:02 GMT
I don’t know what all the fuss is about.
|
|
MooG
Youth Player
Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change.
Posts: 493
|
Post by MooG on Apr 17, 2018 3:00:47 GMT
It's a difficult question.
On the one hand Lambert isn't going to keep us up so that's a tick in the should have kept Hughes column. On the other hand Hughes looked like he'd had a minor meltdown and, if we're not exactly going down all guns blazing, at least we're not being humiliated every week.
|
|
|
|
Post by shangamuzo on Apr 17, 2018 3:51:03 GMT
To be clear I'm not asking did Hughes do an absolute shitter of a job in the last 2 years nor am I asking should be have been sacked last summer or the summer before that or indeed this summer regardless or where we finished. I'm simply putting forward the hypothesis that he would somewhere, somehow have found say 2 wins in the last 10 matches particularly given the paucity of some of the opposition where tragically old Lambo has managed 0 wins, absolutely none at all. And had he done so we would still, astonishingly, be in this fight. Lambo's repeated mantra that 'had we played the way we have been since he arrived all season' then we would not be in the trouble we are in nor would he be here at all, simply doesn't stand up to even the most perfunctory analysis, it's quite clear and undeniable that we are getting worse in terms of points collected and at this stage nothing else matters. To give a pontoon analogy for anyone that plays we 'twisted' on a poor hand of 16 and and went bust. They must have thought Hughes had lost the players after the Coventry debacle and so sacked him. Lambert hasn't subsequently made any difference results wise and neither has Hughes with Southampton. Play this system play that system but it's really just like shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. One of the better football pundits said it's about players not systems-good players can play any system well-and Stoke just haven't got enough good players. |
|
|
|
Post by shangamuzo on Apr 17, 2018 4:04:43 GMT
Our defensive players for quite some time needed guidance under Hughes . now they are getting advice. Struggling to keep a clean sheet . The effort is there and we look more organized. We all know the recent almost won, lost points matches. When we win on Sunday it will be 11points from 11 games. That over a season is survival. Point per game. Lambert not shying away from the responsibility needed at this time. Lambert the man for now. Hughes became lost. Lambert enthusiastic. I'm surprised Stoke are actually favourites to beat Burnley. |
|
|
|
Post by TexasPotter on Apr 17, 2018 4:19:16 GMT
He should've gone after we got trounced by all the clubs near us tbh. Watford was the first alarm bell, Bournemouth was the second alarm bell, WHU at home was the death knell. I'd of had him gone around the holidays but I've got balls unlike our management and board.
|
|
|
|
Post by fullmetaljacket on Apr 17, 2018 5:16:40 GMT
If the choice was sack Hughes get Lambert I'd be staggered if 10% of a poll thought it worthwhile
If the poll was sack Hughes get QSF I'd be amazed if 10% voted to keep Hughes.
The issue wasn't sacking Hughes but who we ended up with. We've just had no real visible new manager bounce.
|
|
|
|
Post by sportsman on Apr 17, 2018 5:29:02 GMT
If the choice was sack Hughes get Lambert I'd be staggered if 10% of a poll thought it worthwhile If the poll was sack Hughes get QSF I'd be amazed if 10% voted to keep Hughes. The issue wasn't sacking Hughes but who we ended up with. We've just had no real visible new manager bounce. If it was left to 90% of the cock wombles on here, rowett would be in charge now. The results haven't matched our effort, desire and commitment. If we had a decent centre forward on our books we'd be clear now. I'm not blaming Lambert for that. |
|
|
|
Post by nott1 on Apr 17, 2018 5:34:37 GMT
It looks like the ill discipline by some players in the squad has been a major factor that could have been sorted a lot earlier, and it's too late now. Hughes trusted players to work hard for themselves and the club but they needed an iron rod instead. Some of the players have acted like naughty kids instead of doing their jobs properly and should be ashamed of their behaviour. The fans have been let down by these reprobates, big time!
|
|
|
|
Post by sonichuth on Apr 17, 2018 6:09:50 GMT
Our defensive players for quite some time needed guidance under Hughes . now they are getting advice. Struggling to keep a clean sheet . The effort is there and we look more organized. We all know the recent almost won, lost points matches. When we win on Sunday it will be 11points from 11 games. That over a season is survival. Point per game. Lambert not shying away from the responsibility needed at this time. Lambert the man for now. Hughes became lost. Lambert enthusiastic. While 38 points may be enough this season, in almost every other season a point per game is not enough for survival. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 6:30:45 GMT
With hindsight should we have fired Hughes when we did?
No
It should have happened 18m sooner
|
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 17, 2018 6:45:02 GMT
Our defensive players for quite some time needed guidance under Hughes . now they are getting advice. Struggling to keep a clean sheet . The effort is there and we look more organized. We all know the recent almost won, lost points matches. When we win on Sunday it will be 11points from 11 games. That over a season is survival. Point per game. Lambert not shying away from the responsibility needed at this time. Lambert the man for now. Hughes became lost. Lambert enthusiastic. While 38 points may be enough this season, in almost every other season a point per game is not enough for survival. It is actually. www.dreamteamfc.com/c/news-gossip/199586/how-many-points-premier-league-team-need-avoid-relegation/ |
|
|
|
Post by jollypotter89 on Apr 17, 2018 9:00:51 GMT
I felt it was time to go after the West Ham game, the majority of the crowd turned on him for the first time that day & add to the fact we were absolutely woeful & probably should have lost by 6 or 7, there seemed no way back after that.
Plus sacking him then, would likely have seen the new manager get the whole transfer window, rather than the last few days in January relying on Cartwright's picks - that was a big mistake by the board for me
I know some fans wanted Hughes gone as far back as the Wolves game last season, & more did at the end of last season, & fair play, in hindsight, they were probably right. But I felt Hughes had enough credit in the bank to be given another go this season - as poor as we were, we were never in serious relegation trouble last year & I had faith he could turn it around after what I'd seen him produce for us before - it just felt the right thing to do (Again in hindsight I was wrong)
He began losing the plot with team selection & shape when we lost to Bournemouth this season, after a decent enough start & his credibility with the majority, just wilted away from there, culminating in the West Ham debacle - at that point even those like me had given up on him
|
|
|
|
Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 17, 2018 9:50:18 GMT
Our defensive players for quite some time needed guidance under Hughes . now they are getting advice. Struggling to keep a clean sheet . The effort is there and we look more organized. We all know the recent almost won, lost points matches. When we win on Sunday it will be 11points from 11 games. That over a season is survival. Point per game. Lambert not shying away from the responsibility needed at this time. Lambert the man for now. Hughes became lost. Lambert enthusiastic. While 38 points may be enough this season, in almost every other season a point per game is not enough for survival. That is rubbish. As Paul Spencer has pointed out in his link. Nine seasons out of ten, 38 points represents safety in this division. |
|
|
|
Post by thegift on Apr 17, 2018 9:51:53 GMT
To be clear I'm not asking did Hughes do an absolute shitter of a job in the last 2 years nor am I asking should be have been sacked last summer or the summer before that or indeed this summer regardless or where we finished. I'm simply putting forward the hypothesis that he would somewhere, somehow have found say 2 wins in the last 10 matches particularly given the paucity of some of the opposition where tragically old Lambo has managed 0 wins, absolutely none at all. And had he done so we would still, astonishingly, be in this fight. Lambo's repeated mantra that 'had we played the way we have been since he arrived all season' then we would not be in the trouble we are in nor would he be here at all, simply doesn't stand up to even the most perfunctory analysis, it's quite clear and undeniable that we are getting worse in terms of points collected and at this stage nothing else matters. To give a pontoon analogy for anyone that plays we 'twisted' on a poor hand of 16 and and went bust. Give it gods. Fuck me. You're part of the reason were in this mess, thinking its ok to plod along with Hughes who over stayed his welcome. He has brought these awful players in. Its sickening. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 10:57:38 GMT
If the choice was sack Hughes get Lambert I'd be staggered if 10% of a poll thought it worthwhile If the poll was sack Hughes get QSF I'd be amazed if 10% voted to keep Hughes. The issue wasn't sacking Hughes but who we ended up with. We've just had no real visible new manager bounce. This sums it up neatly. Even with the shit-show of a squad and the tiny remaining transfer window, I refuse to believe that we couldn’t have presented ourselves as too tempting a proposition for QSF. Talk of him simply not being interested doesn’t convince me. I think it’s more likely we went to him with our model of “sustainability” (that word looks ridiculous seeing as we are about to go down) and a low wage. He was the man to lead us to survival. A young manager with a new vibe and fresh ideas. No disrespect to Lambert because, despite results I do think he’s improved us, but Lambert is nothing but a poor man’s Tony Pulis. |
|
|
|
Post by robstokie on Apr 17, 2018 11:06:04 GMT
Hughes should have gone after the Spurs game, not halfway into January. That would of 1 given the new man a bit more time to assess what he thought was needed and 2 more time to implement a plan. It also might have prevented us from having to scrape the bottom of the barrel and hiring a 3rd rate manager like Lambert
|
|
|
|
Post by Godo on Apr 17, 2018 11:45:37 GMT
Hughes should have gone at the end of last season and then we should have replaced him with a manager with the know how, reputation, knowledge and demanding nature to have signed the players we needed regardless of the input of qunts like Cartwright. But we didn't. ..... coulda, shoulda, woulda!
|
|
|
|
Post by Plave on Apr 17, 2018 11:47:57 GMT
Posted this in another thread but it's relevant here
Mark Hughes v Paul Lambert this season at Stoke
Points per game 0.87 v 0.54
Goals per game 1.04 v 0.72
% of games against top 6 teams 34% v 27%
Win rate 21% v 9%
Conceded per game 2.2 v 1.2
Despite adding quality to the first team in Bauer and Badou, Lamberts team are scoring less, winning less and gaining less points per game despite having easier fixtures.
If you apply Hughes rate to our last 11 games we would have 4 more points, assuming we wouldn't have improved with the addition of Bauer and Badou.
The defense is much improved although Hughes stats are heavily skewed by the Chelsea and Man City hammerings, our new defensive ability has clearly come at a cost as we're getting worse results.
|
|
|
|
Post by Absolution on Apr 17, 2018 11:50:41 GMT
You could tell that the players had given up under Hughes. I don't think I've ever seen it quite so visibly in a group of players as I did towards the end of his time here. The players are fighting for Lambert and it still doesn't look good enough. I can't see how we'd have fared any better under Hughes if he'd stayed. We'd have just had massive dickings against teams like Man City, Spurs and probably a few others.
|
|
|
|
Post by potterspele on Apr 17, 2018 12:04:55 GMT
You could tell that the players had given up under Hughes. I don't think I've ever seen it quite so visibly in a group of players as I did towards the end of his time here. The players are fighting for Lambert and it still doesn't look good enough. I can't see how we'd have fared any better under Hughes if he'd stayed. We'd have just had massive dickings against teams like Man City, Spurs and probably a few others. I think this pretty much sums up how I feel as well. Statistically speaking we may have had a better points per game under Hughes but I'm not confident that trend would have continued had he been kept on. Lambert hasn't fared well at all either and I'm under no illusions we will survive but at least we haven't had to suffer the indignity of repeated 3/4 goal drubbings. It's not enough to justify keeping Lambert next season in my opinion, excepting of course for a minor miracle. |
|
|
|
Post by Edward Tattsyrup on Apr 17, 2018 12:49:36 GMT
Looking back: We kept Pulis 12mths too long We kept Hughes 18mth too long Looking to the future following that trend: We will keep Lambert 24mths too long! He's a likeable enough chap & I think he really is trying his best, but he's the footballing equivalent of Frank Bruno (lots of effort but no real strategy/skill) Nail on Head  |
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Apr 17, 2018 12:52:44 GMT
If Hughes had stayed there would have been some serious disturbances (otherwise known as 'mither').
Unlike West Ham Stoke would have been hammered for it by the powers that be.
|
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Apr 17, 2018 12:57:04 GMT
To be clear I'm not asking did Hughes do an absolute shitter of a job in the last 2 years nor am I asking should be have been sacked last summer or the summer before that or indeed this summer regardless or where we finished. I'm simply putting forward the hypothesis that he would somewhere, somehow have found say 2 wins in the last 10 matches particularly given the paucity of some of the opposition where tragically old Lambo has managed 0 wins, absolutely none at all. And had he done so we would still, astonishingly, be in this fight. Lambo's repeated mantra that 'had we played the way we have been since he arrived all season' then we would not be in the trouble we are in nor would he be here at all, simply doesn't stand up to even the most perfunctory analysis, it's quite clear and undeniable that we are getting worse in terms of points collected and at this stage nothing else matters. To give a pontoon analogy for anyone that plays we 'twisted' on a poor hand of 16 and and went bust. As per your parameters we should have kept him. He would not have done worse. And even if we still went down he deserved to have relegated stoke on his CV. We were too late in sacking him in league position, timing and available suitable replacements |
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 17, 2018 14:06:26 GMT
Yes - but sacking him when we did was always going to make it difficult for the manager coming in. In retrospect Hughes should have gone at the end of last season but having decided to keep him the best outcome would have been for him to see the season out. However it got too bad for him to stay, we threw the dice and it's looking like snake eyes.
The disappointment with Lambert is partly down to some people thinking skills simply changing the manager would solve all the problems - for the most part the same people who want rid of Lambert and the next manager and the next until we either get lucky or go out the league.
I think given the players we have Hughes might actually have done a better job than Lambert in terms of points but if we do go down we could do worse than Lambert in terms of mounting a promotion campaign with a more appropriate squad for the task at hand.
|
|
|
|
Post by flea79 on Apr 17, 2018 14:14:29 GMT
Looking back: He's a likeable enough chap & I think he really is trying his best, but he's the footballing equivalent of Frank Bruno (lots of effort but no real strategy/skill) more like frank spencer I think |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 17, 2018 14:14:33 GMT
Yes.
The appointment after was terrible.
Obviously it should have been done in May then October.
|
|
