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Post by dirtygary69 on Apr 3, 2018 12:02:51 GMT
Now, obviously the old adage that teams are "too good to down" is absolute arse but has there ever been a season quite like this where 6 or 7 decent teams have been so disastrously poor? There's us, for one, but the likes of West Brom, Southampton, West Ham, Palace and even Everton to an extent, have all had diabolical seasons. What's the reason for this?
You look at the players in the squads of the bottom three and they are very capable squads, at least on paper. When Sunderland finally went down, you could see why - their squad was terrible and that's continued into the Championship. I don't think our squad is anywhere near as bad as theirs was. We lost Arnie and never replaced him but, other than that, did anybody see it being quite this bad? We had 'enough' striking power but they've all gone to complete shit. I know there were alarm bells ringing last season but I never thought we'd be more than a win adrift of getting out of the relegation zone at this stage of the season.
At West Brom they've got a decent defence and have had for the last few seasons, really. They've got Evans, Dawson, Barry, Krychowiak, Rondon and others in their squad and Southampton have the likes of Redmond, Lemina, Austin, Tadic, Ward-Prowse. Same with West Ham, Palace and Everton. All decent squads who have been garbage throughout the season but why?
Does it come back to the managers and, if so, what do you do? You can't even say it's because the owners have gone with 'tried and tested' British options. In our case you can but Palace and Southampton both went for 'adventurous' overseas options and replaced them with British Managers when they failed, whereas Swansea did the opposite and improved.
As I said, no team can be too good to go down but it does seem like this season will see the league losing at least two very decent squads of footballers. Have we all (Southampton, WHU, Palace, Stoke, WBA) simply rested our laurels thinking we're good enough? Is recruitment poor at the clubs in question? I just think it's been a very odd season. There's always a side that struggles who should be doing better but this season, it's felt like nearly half the league have had appalling seasons.
If established sides like us and Southampton start to crumble, what happens to the rest of the league? You'd have put us both in the next bracket down from the top 6 as we could upset anybody on our day. Now does the league get even further skewed in favour of the top clubs? Who comes through now to become a 'solid' club? Burnley are having their strong season this time around but that was us two years ago & now look at us.
Sorry for all of the questions as it's probably just a natural cycle for most football clubs like ours. When you're caught up in it, it's easier to analyse it I suppose.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Apr 3, 2018 12:18:52 GMT
We don't have a capable or very decent squad. With about five or six exceptions they're shit, as a unit they're even shitter!
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Post by dirtygary69 on Apr 3, 2018 12:28:49 GMT
We don't have a capable or very decent squad. With about five or six exceptions they're shit, as a unit they're even shitter! Would you say it's anywhere near the 2nd worst in the league though? It's not brilliant and is severely lacking in certain areas (up front) but it's not Sunderland-bad. I know thinking you've got a good squad and having a good squad are two different things. Arnie is a massive hole from last year but other than that, losing Whelan and Walters. We weren't an Arnautovic away from a complete shitter, surely? |
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Apr 3, 2018 12:40:24 GMT
We don't have a capable or very decent squad. With about five or six exceptions they're shit, as a unit they're even shitter! Would you say it's anywhere near the 2nd worst in the league though? It's not brilliant and is severely lacking in certain areas (up front) but it's not Sunderland-bad. I know thinking you've got a good squad and having a good squad are two different things. Arnie is a massive hole from last year but other than that, losing Whelan and Walters. We weren't an Arnautovic away from a complete shitter, surely? Yes, it is the second worst in the league. If it was down to bad luck and decisions were just going against us, you could argue that we were in a false position. But for the first half of the season we couldn't defend, for the second half we can't score. It deserves to end badly for us because the club simply haven't done enough to drag our way out of it. We could have, but we chose not to. We will rightly be relegated when the time comes. |
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Post by salopstick on Apr 3, 2018 12:41:52 GMT
Over the last few years we have not bought enough players with hunger and desire.
You buy a Walters and triple his money he’s out to grasp that opportunity with both hands.
I don’t think many of our buys have had that same attitude
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Post by dirtygary69 on Apr 3, 2018 12:45:20 GMT
Would you say it's anywhere near the 2nd worst in the league though? It's not brilliant and is severely lacking in certain areas (up front) but it's not Sunderland-bad. I know thinking you've got a good squad and having a good squad are two different things. Arnie is a massive hole from last year but other than that, losing Whelan and Walters. We weren't an Arnautovic away from a complete shitter, surely? Yes, it is the second worst in the league. If it was down to bad luck and decisions were just going against us, you could argue that we were in a false position. But for the first half of the season we couldn't defend, for the second half we can't score. It deserves to end badly for us because the club simply haven't done enough to drag our way out of it. We could have, but we chose not to. We will rightly be relegated when the time comes. Now doubt we deserve it, we have been wank at both ends for large periods of the season. The league as a whole, outside of the top 6, seems dogshit which makes it even harder to take. Someone made a point the other day about Sunderland surviving 3 or 4 times by the skin of their teeth but we get sucked into it once and look to be fucked. Almost doesn't seem fair after nine seasons of relative plain sailing. |
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Post by salopstick on Apr 3, 2018 12:46:32 GMT
At our level you cannot buy top players with great attitude
You either go for lesser players with a great attitude/ work rate
Or you buy good players with a questionable attitude.
I think the last few years we’ve gone for buying good footballers with questionable attitudes or are damaged (literally) goods. The standard of football for the start did improve but it’s difficilt to keep it up for that long.
You need a balance, hard work, solid defence and a bit of flair. And both tone and Hughes in their last few years at the club struggled with the balance.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Apr 3, 2018 12:47:10 GMT
We don't have a capable or very decent squad. With about five or six exceptions they're shit, as a unit they're even shitter! Would you say it's anywhere near the 2nd worst in the league though? It's not brilliant and is severely lacking in certain areas (up front) but it's not Sunderland-bad. I know thinking you've got a good squad and having a good squad are two different things. Arnie is a massive hole from last year but other than that, losing Whelan and Walters. We weren't an Arnautovic away from a complete shitter, surely? The problems are well documented but also remember that they started way before this season. Losing Nzonzi. Walters and Whelan not being good enough players, then losing them as right-minded squad players. Buying Allen, who although is one of our better players, was never needed, and the subsequent ramming of him into our midfield threw us totally off balance. Losing Bardsley whilst keeping Johnson. 352 for too long. Sticking with out of form players in some cases, whilst not letting others play their way back into form (Bojan). A shower of utter cunts coming in (Wimmer, Berahino, Jese, Choupo-Moting, Imbula etc). Other players totally losing it (Adam, Crouch, arguably Shawcross to a point) which should have been anticipated. Other players not actually being very good (Ramadan, Jese, Choupo, Zouma). And of course losing Arnie to a direct rival. It's a thoroughly wank squad. |
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Post by jezzascfc on Apr 3, 2018 12:49:26 GMT
I think we are seeing the difference between having a good squad on paper and having a good squad once they step out onto the field of play. Too many in the bottom three clubs are living on past reputations, set for life on their astronomical wages with agents ready to help them escape and jump on another gravy train when it all turns to shit, whilst the clubs that came up have players who are not as well known, but who have fought tooth and nail for every point (like we did after we got promoted).
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Apr 3, 2018 12:49:53 GMT
At our level you cannot buy top players with great attitude You either go for lesser players with a great attitude/ work rate Or you buy good players with a questionable attitude. I think the last few years we’ve gone for buying good footballers with questionable attitudes or are damaged (literally) goods. The standard of football for the start did improve but it’s difficilt to keep it up for that long. You need a balance, hard work, solid defence and a bit of flair. And both tone and Hughes in their last few years at the club struggled with the balance. Hughes was at his best when the squad naturally reached a point of about 50% Pulis grafters and 50% Hughes flair players. Unfortunately it carried on too far to the other extreme and we ended up with what we have now, self-interested, half-arsed tossers. |
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Post by bossthemidfield on Apr 3, 2018 12:53:04 GMT
Would you say it's anywhere near the 2nd worst in the league though? It's not brilliant and is severely lacking in certain areas (up front) but it's not Sunderland-bad. I know thinking you've got a good squad and having a good squad are two different things. Arnie is a massive hole from last year but other than that, losing Whelan and Walters. We weren't an Arnautovic away from a complete shitter, surely? The problems are well documented but also remember that they started way before this season. Losing Nzonzi. Walters and Whelan not being good enough players, then losing them as right-minded squad players. Buying Allen, who although is one of our better players, was never needed, and the subsequent ramming of him into our midfield threw us totally off balance. Losing Bardsley whilst keeping Johnson. 352 for too long. Sticking with out of form players in some cases, whilst not letting others play their way back into form (Bojan). A shower of utter cunts coming in (Wimmer, Berahino, Jese, Choupo-Moting, Imbula etc). Other players totally losing it (Adam, Crouch, arguably Shawcross to a point) which should have been anticipated. Other players not actually being very good (Ramadan, Jese, Choupo, Zouma). And of course losing Arnie to a direct rival. It's a thoroughly wank squad. You need to add... Playing zonal at corners...fucking useless. Appointing Lambert... as above. |
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Post by jezzascfc on Apr 3, 2018 12:56:52 GMT
At our level you cannot buy top players with great attitude You either go for lesser players with a great attitude/ work rate Or you buy good players with a questionable attitude. I think the last few years we’ve gone for buying good footballers with questionable attitudes or are damaged (literally) goods. The standard of football for the start did improve but it’s difficilt to keep it up for that long. You need a balance, hard work, solid defence and a bit of flair. And both tone and Hughes in their last few years at the club struggled with the balance. Hughes was at his best when the squad naturally reached a point of about 50% Pulis grafters and 50% Hughes flair players. Unfortunately it carried on too far to the other extreme and we ended up with what we have now, self-interested, half-arsed tossers. Just like the Arse really - Wenger's team was at its best whilst Bould, Dixon, Seaman, Adams, Winterburn, Petit and Vieira were there, but once they left and he filed the squad with fancy dan skill gnomes, they became a soft touch. To them it means dropping outside the top 5, for us it means relegation. You have to earn the right to play your football - something of which Hughes lost sight as he jettisoned our own equivalent in the likes of Huth, Bardsley, Walters and Whelan, and lost Arnie and Nzonzi (and the fleeting magic of early Bojan), and failed to properly replace them (you could say Bruno, Badou and Bauer are finally some evidence of our starting to do so, but all far too late to affect the direction in which we were heading). |
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Post by dirtygary69 on Apr 3, 2018 12:59:03 GMT
Would you say it's anywhere near the 2nd worst in the league though? It's not brilliant and is severely lacking in certain areas (up front) but it's not Sunderland-bad. I know thinking you've got a good squad and having a good squad are two different things. Arnie is a massive hole from last year but other than that, losing Whelan and Walters. We weren't an Arnautovic away from a complete shitter, surely? The problems are well documented but also remember that they started way before this season. Losing Nzonzi. Walters and Whelan not being good enough players, then losing them as right-minded squad players. Buying Allen, who although is one of our better players, was never needed, and the subsequent ramming of him into our midfield threw us totally off balance. Losing Bardsley whilst keeping Johnson. 352 for too long. Sticking with out of form players in some cases, whilst not letting others play their way back into form (Bojan). A shower of utter cunts coming in (Wimmer, Berahino, Jese, Choupo-Moting, Imbula etc). Other players totally losing it (Adam, Crouch, arguably Shawcross to a point) which should have been anticipated. Other players not actually being very good (Ramadan, Jese, Choupo, Zouma). And of course losing Arnie to a direct rival. It's a thoroughly wank squad. Not going to argue with what's gone on here but West Ham, Southampton and West Brom are all similarly rubbish with many of the same problems. Is it a case of, once again, looking to buy fancy foreign players over solid British players, to show supporters how serious you are? I think what we have done on paper at least, is correct. I don't think we've gone OTT on foreign players and have tried to have a healthy balance of young, old, British and foreign players but that balance hasn't really worked out this time around. In fact, it couldn't have gone much worse. I think we just have to hope we can keep a decent core and try and push back up in the next couple of seasons. The state of our squad at the beginning of next season could be frightening. Goodbye Xherdan Shaqiri and hello David McGoldrick. The worst thing about it is seeing the cunts going on about getting moves somewhere else if/when we get relegated as if they've had nothing to do with it. |
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Post by chayzenbacon on Apr 3, 2018 13:24:36 GMT
Burnley rely predominantly on British players, there are few fancy dans in their 1st team. The football is not all that, keep a clean sheet, nick a goal, another 3 points thank you very much. We had that, we got fed up of it & we wanted change, I certainly did.
Will Burnley fans get fed up or will they stay happy with what they've got?
I wouldn't want Pulis back, I dislike the bloke, but if you offered me a stable Premier league future under Dyche or Allardyce with committed players and the opportunity to keep giving Arsenal a bloody nose I'd take it in a heartbeat.
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Post by lordb on Apr 3, 2018 13:29:45 GMT
The deterioration in quality below the top five is shocking.
Fair play to Burnley given their budget but when you see how bad,well everyone,is the Premier League need to understand their product is going down the pan
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Post by GoBoks on Apr 3, 2018 13:33:17 GMT
We don't have a capable or very decent squad. With about five or six exceptions they're shit, as a unit they're even shitter! What do you sing at games? We’re shit, we’re shit we’re shit? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Apr 3, 2018 13:42:49 GMT
Burnley rely predominantly on British players, there are few fancy dans in their 1st team. The football is not all that, keep a clean sheet, nick a goal, another 3 points thank you very much. We had that, we got fed up of it & we wanted change, I certainly did. Will Burnley fans get fed up or will they stay happy with what they've got? I wouldn't want Pulis back, I dislike the bloke, but if you offered me a stable Premier league future under Dyche or Allardyce with committed players and the opportunity to keep giving Arsenal a bloody nose I'd take it in a heartbeat. I forget the poster, but a while back someone started a thread extolling the virtues of Dyche and suggesting we buy similar players to the ones he favours; basically going for less glamorous, team players. I thought he had a point then, and I do even more, now. I'm not saying that we should abandon flair entirely, but as others have said, we need to get the balance right. I think the manager is key to attaining this. |
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Apr 3, 2018 13:43:28 GMT
We don't have a capable or very decent squad. With about five or six exceptions they're shit, as a unit they're even shitter! What do you sing at games? We’re shit, we’re shit we’re shit? No, at games I try my best to get behind them. There's no point in blinkered faith though. Survival or relegation, this squad needs a scalpel taking to it and fast, or else we could well stay down or even get doubly relegated. |
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Post by dirtygary69 on Apr 3, 2018 13:58:38 GMT
The deterioration in quality below the top five is shocking. Fair play to Burnley given their budget but when you see how bad,well everyone,is the Premier League need to understand their product is going down the pan This was more my point, I think. I know we're doomed and even though I do think our squad should be better than most down there, when the 'established' clubs outside of the top sides start deteriorating so badly, how does that reflect on the league? Who goes next season? Does everybody else just get rotated from the top 6 downwards? Not that I want the same, boring teams year after year with a closed shop approach but the alarming decline of so many clubs this season must be a concern? |
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 3, 2018 14:59:50 GMT
The OP poses an interesting question.
I think there are 3 factors that go to make a successful football team;
1. Talent
2. Application.
3. Teamwork.
1. Talent goes without saying, in fact we are obsessed with it, and it tends to over-ride the two other aspects too much. Computer manager games are obsessed with individual statistics with little appreciation that no individual can win a game of football on their own.
2. Talent has to be put to work. Players may have huge talent but unless they put it to work by being fit, trying hard, never giving up, etc. they will not contribute significantly to a team. To a limited degree application can make up for a shortfall in talent.
3. Football is a team game (my favourite mantra). Successful teams comprise of players who play well together, play for each other and produce synergy and do it consistently, not just on odd occasions. Managers like Ramsay and Clough recognised this and often had second-rate players in their highly successful teams. In a different way Ferguson recognised it by being quick to remove anyone from the club who could become a disruptive influence, or getting "too big for their boots".
This season has seen a lot of teams below the top big 6 clubs, scratching around, picking up the second best talent that the big 6 don't want or are finished with. This purchasing policy is often driven by a transfer team rather than the manager (team coach) and as a consequence many clubs have assembled a hotchpotch of misfits, who may be individually talented but are deficient in some way, e.g. they don't apply themselves, are not prepared to play for the other team members, have inflated egos, habitually get injured, have not played for the first XI for a long time, lost desire, getting old, etc. etc. (You get the message) Many of the Prem clubs have slipped into this situation I believe.
It seems that some managers are able to shake a club out of this malaise and we have often seen in recent seasons, teams switch between being very good, to very bad (or vice versa) and back again. Leicester are the prime example; they were certain to be relegated exactly 3 years ago, made a miraculous recovery, won the the Prem title the following season, and have since sacked 2 managers following bad runs at the start of the season, which I put down to not trying hard enough, as a new manager was appointed and they have then turned things round. It is also apparent that some managers are unable to shake a team out of the malaise and they just drift towards relegation.
What has been exceptional this season is the performance of the promoted sides. Invariably one or two struggle all season and get relegated back down. This season, we have seen 3 teams that are very limited on talent, but have displayed very good teamwork. They have been well managed and have played for each other. Rafa has said he has surprised himself on how well his players have responded to him and raised their game. The performance of these 3 clubs have only served to make clubs like Stoke, Southampton, West Ham, Palace, and to a lesser degree Swansea who all have lots of individual talent in the squad but also players who have "lost it" (Bony, Berahino, Carroll), players who simply can't hack it in English football (too many to single out individuals), or players who are just not prepared to play for the rest of the team.
We should not condemn the clubs and managers totally. The fans are also guilty of demanding marque signings and the clubs do it to keep up season ticket sales. It is hardly surprising that for most of the time Stoke have been in the Prem., the first player on the team sheet was the likes of Jon Walters, players who are going to give the manager and the team their best. Suan Dyche has been prudent to sign a whole team of them. They will never win much, or score much, but like Pulis' teams of old, they will battle for 90 minutes. Big Sam has done likewise at the clubs he has managed, but has eventually been shown the door because the teams don't play attractive football that the fans crave for.
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Post by spitthedog on Apr 3, 2018 15:10:20 GMT
The deterioration in quality below the top five is shocking. Fair play to Burnley given their budget but when you see how bad,well everyone,is the Premier League need to understand their product is going down the pan This was more my point, I think. I know we're doomed and even though I do think our squad should be better than most down there, when the 'established' clubs outside of the top sides start deteriorating so badly, how does that reflect on the league? Who goes next season? Does everybody else just get rotated from the top 6 downwards? Not that I want the same, boring teams year after year with a closed shop approach but the alarming decline of so many clubs this season must be a concern? I think when Leicester shocked everyone by winning the title, it was as if the top clubs responded with a 'never again' approach and decided to up the ante. They are out of sight now and 4 clubs in the Champions League ensures that their riches just expand year on year. The others are just picking up the scraps. Yes if they are very organised they can reach the giddy heights of 7th or 8th, as in Burnley, but what next for them? They will struggle to maintain that. Effectively we are playing in a League of 14 with 3 Relegation Places. I also think there isn't that much difference between these 14 and the top 10 in the Championship. Incidentally for this year I think we fall into the 'too poor not to go down' category. |
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Post by Boothen on Apr 3, 2018 17:26:52 GMT
We've never been relegated from the Premiership before, so yeah it's most definitely unprecedented.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Apr 3, 2018 17:34:25 GMT
Now, obviously the old adage that teams are "too good to down" is absolute arse but has there ever been a season quite like this where 6 or 7 decent teams have been so disastrously poor? Yes, why do you think we managed to stay up for 9 seasons?  |
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Post by iglugluk on Apr 3, 2018 17:39:03 GMT
A good mix of flair players and solid committed workers is what a team outside the top 6 needs as far as I'm concerned. Hughes moved farther and farther from that balance the longer he was here and its why the squad is so poor now. He was also strangely unable to spot a decent goal scorer either, which is plain weird!
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Post by redrob on Apr 3, 2018 17:42:52 GMT
I'm not really sure I accept the premise of the op. This hasn't been an exceptional season cliches are such for a reason and as we all know the table doesn't lie. Come the end of game 38 the 3 worst teams will be in the bottom 3 places.
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Post by milky on Apr 3, 2018 18:49:35 GMT
A staggering level of arrogance,complacency and ineptitude from those running the show has left us on the brink.
Of course at no point will any of them be holding up their hands and accepting any blame.The bad luck card will come out.
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Post by GoBoks on Apr 3, 2018 21:15:57 GMT
What do you sing at games? We’re shit, we’re shit we’re shit? No, at games I try my best to get behind them. There's no point in blinkered faith though. Survival or relegation, this squad needs a scalpel taking to it and fast, or else we could well stay down or even get doubly relegated. Agreed, but what does it help to moan about it now? |
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Apr 3, 2018 21:27:30 GMT
A staggering level of arrogance,complacency and ineptitude from those running the show has left us on the brink. Of course at no point will any of them be holding up their hands and accepting any blame.The bad luck card will come out. We don’t often agree but your spot on |
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Post by lordb on Apr 3, 2018 21:28:57 GMT
I think this thread has been hi jacked by how bad Stoke are and why.
The issue of a declining Premier League is one the authorities need to address.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Apr 3, 2018 23:13:01 GMT
I think this thread has been hi jacked by how bad Stoke are and why. The issue of a declining Premier League is one the authorities need to address. Is it really declining or is it simply levelling off from 7th downwards? |
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