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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 9, 2018 11:28:15 GMT
Sven was actually a very good England manager. What goes against him though is 2004. We were at the pinnacle of something and it needed to be developed. Instead we went out all clueless blaming the ref . He fucked up in 2002. We had the players to win it. Against brazil once again in a big game we shit ourselves and were unfocused throughout the game. We were playing against ten men but never really went for it. Brazil went on to beat a German team in the final that we had beaten 5-1 on their own turf the year before Did we have the players to win it? Danny Mills at right back and Trevor Sinclair in midfield?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 9, 2018 11:34:29 GMT
It's a repetitive action that can be improved upon, so it's not pointless at all. Repetition of that technique means that when it comes down to the pressure situation the technique should hold out. These are professional footballers pal, you're telling they haven't had enough practice in their life? I mean, I wouldn't miss a penalty at school pissing about in lesson but in an important match when it mattered I twatted the bar and missed, me scoring 30 a day every day at school didn't help me there did it?! I obviously bottled it Yes. Practise is proven to improve almost everything, that same with penalties. Not practising them is just daft and plain arrogant.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jun 9, 2018 11:38:47 GMT
These are professional footballers pal, you're telling they haven't had enough practice in their life? I mean, I wouldn't miss a penalty at school pissing about in lesson but in an important match when it mattered I twatted the bar and missed, me scoring 30 a day every day at school didn't help me there did it?! I obviously bottled it Yes. Practise is proven to improve almost everything, that same with penalties. Not practising them is just daft and plain arrogant. And what is the evidence to suggest it works? We've been into many tournaments where we've publicly come out and said we've practiced but yet still been wank.
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World cup
Jun 9, 2018 11:39:07 GMT
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Post by Absolution on Jun 9, 2018 11:39:07 GMT
Never understood this business of not practicing penalties because you can't replicate the pressure of taking them in a match.
I'm fairly sure the same thing would apply for actors or performers before a live show, but I never heard of any performer that didn't rehearse beforehand.
You do it to iron out any deficiencies in technique. You should also then be able to step up at the actual match with at least a bit more confidence, knowing that in practice you could do it.
It won't always work, but to think you're better without having practiced is as nonsensical an arguement as I've ever heard.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 9, 2018 11:46:52 GMT
Yes. Practise is proven to improve almost everything, that same with penalties. Not practising them is just daft and plain arrogant. And what is the evidence to suggest it works? We've been into many tournaments where we've publicly come out and said we've practiced but yet still been wank. The quality of the penalties in most penalty shoot outs seems to be getting better to me and I think that's in no small part to practising them being more of a done thing.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jun 9, 2018 11:53:56 GMT
And what is the evidence to suggest it works? We've been into many tournaments where we've publicly come out and said we've practiced but yet still been wank. The quality of the penalties in most penalty shoot outs seems to be getting better to me and I think that's in no small part to practising them being more of a done thing. It's all between the ears, nothing physical.. anyway, we'll disagree and leave it there
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 9, 2018 11:55:05 GMT
The quality of the penalties in most penalty shoot outs seems to be getting better to me and I think that's in no small part to practising them being more of a done thing. It's all between the ears, nothing physical.. anyway, we'll disagree and leave it there The more you practice something though the more confident and prepared you tend to feel.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jun 9, 2018 12:00:06 GMT
It's all between the ears, nothing physical.. anyway, we'll disagree and leave it there The more you practice something though the more confident and prepared you tend to feel. To a point, the pressure of a penalty is more than any other. It's nothing like taking a free kick for example, especially if the consequences of missing mean you go home. If I see Harry Kane shitting himself as he walks to the spot then it's a good indicator that he'll probably fluff his lines. Again, it's nothing to do with whether he's capable or not because we all know he is. It's that 'P' word, pressure, it does horrible things to even the best and most technical of players.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 9, 2018 15:16:21 GMT
He fucked up in 2002. We had the players to win it. Against brazil once again in a big game we shit ourselves and were unfocused throughout the game. We were playing against ten men but never really went for it. Brazil went on to beat a German team in the final that we had beaten 5-1 on their own turf the year before Did we have the players to win it? Danny Mills at right back and Trevor Sinclair in midfield? We had beaten the finalists 5-1 the previous year. We had gerrard, scholes, owen, beckham. We definitely had the quality to win it in a year where there was not a stand out team oozing with quality
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 9, 2018 15:21:15 GMT
Did we have the players to win it? Danny Mills at right back and Trevor Sinclair in midfield? We had beaten the finalists 5-1 the previous year. We had gerrard, scholes, owen, beckham. We definitely had the quality to win it in a year where there was not a stand out team oozing with quality We didn’t have Gerrard at the 2002 World Cup. He was injured. Beckham was only half fit. Neville was injured. We had Mills and Sinclair in the team and such luminaries as Keown, Bridge, Dyer and Vassell in the squad.
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World cup
Jun 9, 2018 15:38:10 GMT
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 9, 2018 15:38:10 GMT
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Post by ParaPsych on Jun 9, 2018 15:48:58 GMT
I say it every time but...
We never have and we probably never will beat a good team in the knockout stages of a major tournament, unless the match is at Wembley. It has literally never happened.
That's why I'm quite ok with us making say a quarter final and going out on penalties.
The big fuckups have been the years we've not qualified, or we've gone out to the likes of Iceland.
2010 was a huge missed opportunity, the draw was incredibly kind to us as we could have made the semis without having to play any of the big boys, a bit like Italia 90 but easier. All we had to do was be in semi reasonable form, win the group and go from there. Instead we couldn't even win the pretty easy group we were in and got battered by Germany. Quite why the Lampard disallowed goal has been turned into this mythical turning point is beyond me, we were wank.
Heroic failure is what I look forward to with England and I really hope we have a good heroic failure this time.
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Post by ohbottom on Jun 9, 2018 15:51:50 GMT
Practicing penalties without any pressure is pointless, I think our recent efforts highlight that quite clearly. It's about bottle and a strong determined mind when it comes to the shootout, not necessarily the best striker of a football. So how come Germany / West Germany haven't lost one since beaten by the Czechs in 1976? Because since that experience they drill and drill and drill it as an essential skill for tournament play. No, you can't replicate the pressure situation on the training ground, but it's no more pointless practising pens than it is corners or free-kicks or one-touch passing.
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World cup
Jun 9, 2018 15:57:48 GMT
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 9, 2018 15:57:48 GMT
Practicing penalties without any pressure is pointless, I think our recent efforts highlight that quite clearly. It's about bottle and a strong determined mind when it comes to the shootout, not necessarily the best striker of a football. So how come Germany / West Germany haven't lost one since beaten by the Czechs in 1976? Because since that experience they drill and drill and drill it as an essential skill for tournament play. No, you can't replicate the pressure situation on the training ground, but it's no more pointless practising pens than it is corners or free-kicks or one-touch passing. I remember watching a documentary all about penalty kicks and Alan Shearer said practice doesn't help. That was an appalling thing for a player of his stature to say. It's a typical head in the sand approach that's dogged the England team for too long. It's improving a bit now but some people still think it's a lottery. It isn't. Taking a penalty is a skill....which is why England always lose them.
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World cup
Jun 9, 2018 16:00:51 GMT
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 9, 2018 16:00:51 GMT
We had beaten the finalists 5-1 the previous year. We had gerrard, scholes, owen, beckham. We definitely had the quality to win it in a year where there was not a stand out team oozing with quality We didn’t have Gerrard at the 2002 World Cup. He was injured. Beckham was only half fit. Neville was injured. We had Mills and Sinclair in the team and such luminaries as Keown, Bridge, Dyer and Vassell in the squad. We had a superb centre back pairing. We had scholes, butt, beckham who had been an all conquering midfield at club level.we had Michael owen up front. We got in the lead against a bang average Brazil team then were asleep the rest of the game. A good manager could have made the changes to wake everyone up
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 9, 2018 16:05:54 GMT
We didn’t have Gerrard at the 2002 World Cup. He was injured. Beckham was only half fit. Neville was injured. We had Mills and Sinclair in the team and such luminaries as Keown, Bridge, Dyer and Vassell in the squad. We had a superb centre back pairing. We had scholes, butt, beckham who had been an all conquering midfield at club level.we had Michael owen up front. We got in the lead against a bang average Brazil team then were asleep the rest of the game. A good manager could have made the changes to wake everyone up Beckham was barely fit, he probably shouldn’t have even gone. We were undeniably sluggish against 10 men but how many of our squad would’ve got into their side? Three, absolute tops.
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Post by ohbottom on Jun 9, 2018 16:28:45 GMT
So how come Germany / West Germany haven't lost one since beaten by the Czechs in 1976? Because since that experience they drill and drill and drill it as an essential skill for tournament play. No, you can't replicate the pressure situation on the training ground, but it's no more pointless practising pens than it is corners or free-kicks or one-touch passing. I remember watching a documentary all about penalty kicks and Alan Shearer said practice doesn't help. That was an appalling thing for a player of his stature to say. It's a typical head in the sand approach that's dogged the England team for too long. It's improving a bit now but some people still think it's a lottery. It isn't. Taking a penalty is a skill....which is why England always lose them. I saw that too, was somewhat amazed. I think it's not just about practising taking a pen on it's own (which may be what Shearer meant). It's practising a shoot-out, including the waiting, walking to the spot, and how to address the psychological aspect, negate the paralysis that comes from "fear of failure". But you're right to say it's not a lottery. If it was, Germany would lose half (and they don't), and we'd win half (and we don't).
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World cup
Jun 9, 2018 16:37:57 GMT
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 9, 2018 16:37:57 GMT
I remember watching a documentary all about penalty kicks and Alan Shearer said practice doesn't help. That was an appalling thing for a player of his stature to say. It's a typical head in the sand approach that's dogged the England team for too long. It's improving a bit now but some people still think it's a lottery. It isn't. Taking a penalty is a skill....which is why England always lose them. I saw that too, was somewhat amazed. I think it's not just about practising taking a pen on it's own (which may be what Shearer meant). It's practising a shoot-out, including the waiting, walking to the spot, and how to address the psychological aspect, negate the paralysis that comes from "fear of failure". But you're right to say it's not a lottery. If it was, Germany would lose half (and they don't), and we'd win half (and we don't). I remember Gerrard saying the second half of extra time v Portugal in 2006 he just ran about in a daze of fear knowing he'd soon have to take a penalty. This despite a month before him comfortably scoring one for Liverpool in the fa cup final shootout. If a player of his standing can't handle it there's some psychological work to be done.
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 9, 2018 16:43:58 GMT
So how come Germany / West Germany haven't lost one since beaten by the Czechs in 1976? Because since that experience they drill and drill and drill it as an essential skill for tournament play. No, you can't replicate the pressure situation on the training ground, but it's no more pointless practising pens than it is corners or free-kicks or one-touch passing. I remember watching a documentary all about penalty kicks and Alan Shearer said practice doesn't help. That was an appalling thing for a player of his stature to say. It's a typical head in the sand approach that's dogged the England team for too long. It's improving a bit now but some people still think it's a lottery. It isn't. Taking a penalty is a skill....which is why England always lose them. I don't think it's the technical aspects of penalties that stops us winning shootouts. How can you replicate or coach out the fear on a training pitch ? I bet waddle or Southgate would score them all day long
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Post by miggoscfc on Jun 9, 2018 16:48:49 GMT
I remember watching a documentary all about penalty kicks and Alan Shearer said practice doesn't help. That was an appalling thing for a player of his stature to say. It's a typical head in the sand approach that's dogged the England team for too long. It's improving a bit now but some people still think it's a lottery. It isn't. Taking a penalty is a skill....which is why England always lose them. I don't think it's the technical aspects of penalties that stops us winning shootouts. How can you replicate or coach out the fear on a training pitch ? I bet waddle or Southgate would score them all day long Absolutely This. Every documentary ive seen or interview have said the players that missed in previous tournaments used to bury them in training. It all psychological.
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World cup
Jun 9, 2018 16:54:28 GMT
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 9, 2018 16:54:28 GMT
I remember watching a documentary all about penalty kicks and Alan Shearer said practice doesn't help. That was an appalling thing for a player of his stature to say. It's a typical head in the sand approach that's dogged the England team for too long. It's improving a bit now but some people still think it's a lottery. It isn't. Taking a penalty is a skill....which is why England always lose them. I don't think it's the technical aspects of penalties that stops us winning shootouts. How can you replicate or coach out the fear on a training pitch ? I bet waddle or Southgate would score them all day long But if you are practiced, and by definition prepared, it helps to conquer the fear. It instills confidence which is vital. Practice isn't just taking penalties either. It's taking them and improving. And then improving more and when you are on the training pitch and are comfortable with your technique it helps in the pressure situations.
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 9, 2018 18:17:51 GMT
I don't think it's the technical aspects of penalties that stops us winning shootouts. How can you replicate or coach out the fear on a training pitch ? I bet waddle or Southgate would score them all day long But if you are practiced, and by definition prepared, it helps to conquer the fear. It instills confidence which is vital. Practice isn't just taking penalties either. It's taking them and improving. And then improving more and when you are on the training pitch and are comfortable with your technique it helps in the pressure situations. I just think it's the weight of expectations that ultimately fucks them up during that 1000 yard walk up to the penalty spot
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 9, 2018 18:48:28 GMT
Spain v Tunisia live on Freesports
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Post by lordb on Jun 9, 2018 19:09:21 GMT
I predict England to win a game on penalties this World Cup.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 9, 2018 19:31:22 GMT
Tunisia looking reasonably good, and well drilled, against Spain.
Highest ranked African team too.
Can see that opening game being a frustrating watch.
Panama will be comfortable, but that one could be tricky.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 9, 2018 19:32:45 GMT
We had a superb centre back pairing. We had scholes, butt, beckham who had been an all conquering midfield at club level.we had Michael owen up front. We got in the lead against a bang average Brazil team then were asleep the rest of the game. A good manager could have made the changes to wake everyone up Beckham was barely fit, he probably shouldn’t have even gone. We were undeniably sluggish against 10 men but how many of our squad would’ve got into their side? Three, absolute tops. On that given day the players weren't at their best and appeared to be tired. Beckham wasn't fit. Eriksson had fallen into the same trap as many other England managers, and picked the big name player. However, the margin of victory was narrow. The brazil winner was a fluke. We had plenty of time to do something about it. But the game petered out with Eriksson remaining completely inactive. Regarding the broader debate. I think when you look back at those years, and add the likes of rooney,gerrard, lampard, terry to the players we had available In 2002.The team was packed with quality. A lot of those players would have got into the other top teams. We cannot say that we have not in the past produced the quality to win major tournaments. Our current crop of players is as technically gifted as any other international team. That old cliche of other countries being technically better does not stand to scrutiny. Look at our youth teams too....now cleaning up major international youth honors. The issue for me has always been game intelligence and tactical awareness on the part of the manager and players. We have had so many knockout games against big teams in our history where we narrowly fail, and for me that is nearly always because of our lack of the aforementioned. I don't think this crop of players or Gareth Southgate will change that. Eriksson certainly didn't and with a superb generation of players
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World cup
Jun 9, 2018 19:40:38 GMT
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Post by questionable on Jun 9, 2018 19:40:38 GMT
I don’t know why but I have little if any interest in the World Cup, I’ll watch the odd match.
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World cup
Jun 9, 2018 19:41:36 GMT
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Post by questionable on Jun 9, 2018 19:41:36 GMT
I don’t know why but I have little if any interest in the World Cup, I’ll watch the odd match.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 9, 2018 20:05:28 GMT
Half-time in Paris
France 0 USA 1 !
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World cup
Jun 9, 2018 20:15:03 GMT
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 9, 2018 20:15:03 GMT
I predict England to win a game on penalties this World Cup. That's just being silly 😀😀
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