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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 2, 2017 9:18:16 GMT
I have never found a religion I could entirely succumb and surrender to, nor a god I could believe in whole heartedly. Taoism is free from dogma and encourages one to follow The Way through oneself and doing-without-doing, free from ego and just being. There is peace in this Loving your work Balls. How does one actually do, without doing, cause I'd like to get on this. "Yes boss, I won't be in today, but don't worry. You can consider that I've put a shift in, even though I'm not present. Put my cheque in the post!" Amaze raises an interesting point here. Generally speaking the Eastern religions look for religion to give inner peace...being at one with oneself and the world BUT this is difficult to do when there is so much internal and external strife....even if we achieved inner peace..what about the others. Jesus( tied up with Roman occupation and the Jewish hope for the coming of a liberating Messiah), Gandhi ( Eastern I know) ML.King did not lead peaceful lives...all were politically active dealing with issues of their time, in the here and now....and ended up getting killed for it.... Your highest concerns ARE your God ....whether you want them to be or not in my opinion I would add Wesley, the Quakers, and the Salvation Army to the list of Religious Social reformers
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 9:28:48 GMT
I have never found a religion I could entirely succumb and surrender to, nor a god I could believe in whole heartedly. Taoism is free from dogma and encourages one to follow The Way through oneself and doing-without-doing, free from ego and just being. There is peace in this Loving your work Balls. How does one actually do, without doing, cause I'd like to get on this. "Yes boss, I won't be in today, but don't worry. You can consider that I've put a shift in, even though I'm not present. Put my cheque in the post!" Haha I was referring to woo-wei-woo......doing without doing. This pertains to the idea of doing something so completely that one is the act. When I saw wood I am the act, the movement, action without thought. there is no I in much the same way that meditation seeks to kill, free oneself from the ego. Anything we do the Taoist sees as an opportunity to be free from attachment to the self. To perform an act one should be like a good fire: to burn oneself so intensely that there is no trace left behind. I see similarities in this and Zen. John Gray in Straw Dogs sees Taoism as the religion of the future in that it has no dogmatic constraints and encourages peaceful harmony through our actions, that by becoming thoughtless automatons we are freed from the perils of ego, greed, desire and anger and therefore suffering. In a predicted age of growing civil unrest due to shortages of basic commodities of land, water and food
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 2, 2017 9:39:35 GMT
Loving your work Balls. How does one actually do, without doing, cause I'd like to get on this. "Yes boss, I won't be in today, but don't worry. You can consider that I've put a shift in, even though I'm not present. Put my cheque in the post!" Haha I was referring to woo-wei-woo......doing without doing. This pertains to the idea of doing something so completely that one is the act. When I saw wood I am the act, the movement, action without thought. there is no I in much the same way that meditation seeks to kill, free oneself from the ego. Anything we do the Taoist sees as an opportunity to be free from attachment to the self. To perform an act one should be like a good fire: to burn oneself so intensely that there is no trace left behind. I see similarities in this and Zen. John Gray in Straw Dogs sees Taoism as the religion of the future in that it has no dogmatic constraints and encourages peaceful harmony through our actions, that by becoming thoughtless automatons we are freed from the perils of ego, greed, desire and anger and therefore suffering. In a predicted age of growing civil unrest due to shortages of basic commodities of land, water and food It was coming across the life of the Buddha and the story of his search for Enlightenment , the Four noble truths and Eight fold path that probably was the catalyst for me to move away from " Christianity"at University
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 9:59:22 GMT
Loving your work Balls. How does one actually do, without doing, cause I'd like to get on this. "Yes boss, I won't be in today, but don't worry. You can consider that I've put a shift in, even though I'm not present. Put my cheque in the post!" Amaze raises an interesting point here. Generally speaking the Eastern religions look for religion to give inner peace...being at one with oneself and the world BUT this is difficult to do when there is so much internal and external strife....even if we achieved inner peace..what about the others. Jesus( tied up with Roman occupation and the Jewish hope for the coming of a liberating Messiah), Gandhi ( Eastern I know) ML.King did not lead peaceful lives...all were politically active dealing with issues of their time, in the here and now....and ended up getting killed for it. Your highest concerns ARE your God ....whether you want them to be or not in my opinion One can never truly be free from suffering, enlightenment does not exclude a fall from grace towards ego. My own criticism with these religions are that they seek perfection, itself an idealism, a thing that originates within the mind, an idea. Ideas are not real and yet we are willing to die and to kill for them. All these religions were designed as social, moral obligations to bring about social cohesion, harmony through obedience. The modern mind sees the issues that lie within organised religions, that they can be subverted and perverted for the egos pleasure. Timothy Leary speaks of the modern psychedelic yogi using the drugs to wipe clean the dogma from their minds and to experience reality anew. It was Leary who devised the idea of imprinting, for he was a psychologist at Harvard before he dropped out, he saw religions as part of a hive mentality that seeks conformity and obedience, driving out deviance and difference. This he saw as an unevolved response of the hive mind. The rejection of this was salvation, creating a new path towards god and eventually he saw this as the evolution of the human through technology as becoming a god. The purest form of goodness is that of compassion: loving kindness. To treat oneself and others in this way is to feel and not think. Emotions are far more powerful than ideas. I may think I would very much like to kill you but if I am possessed by a murderous, animalistic rage then I will act without thought and do regardless. There are subtle yet profound changes taking place in the evolution of our mass consciousness towards a compassionate, loving understanding of our place in the world, our relationship with nature, the realisation that we, individually and collectively, cannot be outside of nature, as a species we are as much part of the Earth as a flea or a leaf, in being so we are all related to each other, each organism, each rock. As the Lakota say, all my relations. This changing awareness is seen in Gaia theory, mindfulness, compassion focussed therapy, the reawakening of shamanism and the use of drugs to expand our consciousness through experience. We live in revelatory times. There will always be good and evil. The true manifestation of God within us is not only how we treat ourselves and fellow humans, but all of existence as a whole
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 10:04:49 GMT
Haha I was referring to woo-wei-woo......doing without doing. This pertains to the idea of doing something so completely that one is the act. When I saw wood I am the act, the movement, action without thought. there is no I in much the same way that meditation seeks to kill, free oneself from the ego. Anything we do the Taoist sees as an opportunity to be free from attachment to the self. To perform an act one should be like a good fire: to burn oneself so intensely that there is no trace left behind. I see similarities in this and Zen. John Gray in Straw Dogs sees Taoism as the religion of the future in that it has no dogmatic constraints and encourages peaceful harmony through our actions, that by becoming thoughtless automatons we are freed from the perils of ego, greed, desire and anger and therefore suffering. In a predicted age of growing civil unrest due to shortages of basic commodities of land, water and food It was coming across the life of the Buddha and the story of his search for Enlightenment , the Four noble truths and Eight fold path that probably was the catalyst for me to move away from " Christianity"at University The words of Jesus are all love, there are similarities in his words and that of Buddhism but I feel his words were subverted to further the spreading of "his" word through the greatest branding in history (Gore Vidal). My issue is to reconcile these words of love and compassion with the monstrosity that is the Old Testament god of vengeance, punishment and blind adherence. In this way religions have been a psychological tool for men to rule families and justify their enslavement of women (akin to Islamic tradition as practised by the Taliban) through God's name A true religion sees us all equal, all deserving of love
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 2, 2017 11:37:57 GMT
Loving your work Balls. How does one actually do, without doing, cause I'd like to get on this. "Yes boss, I won't be in today, but don't worry. You can consider that I've put a shift in, even though I'm not present. Put my cheque in the post!" John Gray in Straw Dogs sees Taoism as the religion of the future in that it has no dogmatic constraints and encourages peaceful harmony through our actions, that by becoming thoughtless automatons we are freed from the perils of ego, greed, desire and anger and therefore suffering. In a predicted age of growing civil unrest due to shortages of basic commodities of land, water and food What with the current fashion of being a right selfish b@$t@&d, I can't see John Grays ideal happening. Love takes discipline, hence disciple. So I would say that at the moment we're going in the opposite direction & straight to Hell in a handcart 👹
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Post by desman2 on Dec 2, 2017 12:41:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 13:47:57 GMT
John Gray in Straw Dogs sees Taoism as the religion of the future in that it has no dogmatic constraints and encourages peaceful harmony through our actions, that by becoming thoughtless automatons we are freed from the perils of ego, greed, desire and anger and therefore suffering. In a predicted age of growing civil unrest due to shortages of basic commodities of land, water and food What with the current fashion of being a right selfish b@$t@&d, I can't see John Grays ideal happening. Love takes discipline, hence disciple. So I would say that at the moment we're going in the opposite direction & straight to Hell in a handcart 👹 There is truth in that. Politics is heavily influenced by the individual, yet as a collective we are a family of Man there is no doubt. Nations and borders are all conceptual constructs as John Lennon says in Imagine. We have to wake up to reality. Sometimes we need a crisis to grow. Unbridled economic growth is unrealistic. Capitalism eventually becomes dull, repetitive, vacuous. The more you buy the emptier you feel. 300 channels and there's nothing on TV.....nothing that fills the aching spiritual well within is. There is no discipline in rapacious consumption. Stoicism enables one to grow strong through the overcoming of suffering, like Nietzsche's Ubermensch - by overcoming suffering we become stronger, we become the Super Man. We have grown moribund both physically and spiritually as a species. A little suffering through Brexit would be no bad thing in this country and perhaps the rest of Europe can take a haircut too. Love also needs surrender to exist: the abdication of one's own needs in favour of another. There is power in weakness, strength in vulnerability. Brene Brown talks a lot of making ourselves vulnerable to achieve emotional intimacy. Isn't that what we all crave? To love and to be accepted for who we really are? Human beings are generally quite decent, moral creatures. I still have hope for us and the planet 😇😁👍
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 18:52:59 GMT
So with 5 mins to go today just how many of you prayed to the God of Football?
God for me is about Hope. Hope that one day mankind can come together in peace and find out why we're here.
Put the wars and differences aside then go and explore that vast Universe out there. Stop wasting money trying to kill each other and invest it in a future for mankind. I'd like to die like most I'm sure knowing my family has a future.
That's why I believe in a God, because the alternative is that we live on a zoo or worse we are kept and bred for entertainment.
I'd love to talk to Kim Jong Un and find out why he wants to get his children killed? Why he wants to kill everyone else? What he needs to make him grow up and start to be a member of the World instead of a precocious child with weapons?
Until then I'll pray to my God that one day my wishes come true. Futile Maybe but today the God of Football heard us =)
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Post by Boothen on Dec 2, 2017 18:58:17 GMT
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 0:39:24 GMT
I've read the Bible, and all of it has no meaning without clarification of the very start... if indeed God did create the heavens and the earth, and the trees and the plants and the rivers and the seas and all the animals and man - Why?
If the first action when He created man was to place him in a garden that He also created to look after it...why? He created us as slaves, to be punished if we do absolutely anything against His will and desire. But...why?
Many believe in God as the answer to what our purpose is here (ie - to SERVE Him), but why did He create this all in the first place? Our own purpose is irrelevant if there is a God unless we are absolutely clear as to why we were created in the first place.
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Post by starkiller on Dec 3, 2017 2:57:03 GMT
People believed in many gods for more of human history than just the one.
And most their other ideas were stolen for Christianity.
So what makes the many gods idea wrong and one god idea right, in a religious person's mind?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 3:13:40 GMT
People believed in many gods for more of human history than just the one. And most their other ideas were stolen for Christianity. So what makes the many gods idea wrong and one god idea right, in a religious person's mind? Many Gods would never agree on anything just like us.
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Post by boothenboys1863 on Dec 3, 2017 21:27:22 GMT
I wouldn’t say I believe in a person being God as in someone higher and more powerful than anything/anyone else but I do believe there’s something or someone inside for everyone it’s just how you personally see that something/someone. (Don’t know if that’s makes sense to anyone else but it does to me).
I never really thought anything of it until there was a time in when my life completely changed. By decisions I’d made, this might sound daft but I used to work away and that was my life until I thought needed to be at home. Wether it was for a reason I don’t know but I knew I needed change.
Anyway, long story short after being back in stoke for 6 months or so I felt I couldn’t settle I was fed up started working shifts and I just thought Is this what life is living off a buzzer in a factory where I’m just a number to everyone. In the end I reached breaking point i felt that fed up with everything I didn’t know who to turn too or who was really there for me.
Then one day I took my misses to Wilko in Longton and I just sat in the car waiting for her and I just cried. I don’t know why or what was the tipping point but sitting in my Car in Longton I cried and whilst I was pulling myself together before my lady come back out the shop and saw me crying I just said out loud all my problems and even though I was in the car on myself I felt like someone was finally listening to me and understanding me and that it was ok to get it off my chest no one will judge Me.
After that I felt better straight away and carried on and remembered the people I love and how lucky I am to have people in my life etc and I never thought anymore of it.
Until maybe 6 weeks ago I was out walking the dog and I sat down on a rock and I thought about that moment of my life and who was it I was talking to who was it who listened without saying anything. Since then I’ve thought about going church but everytime I’ve gone to go I don’t feel it’s the right time. I don’t know if I’m making excuses or what but I know I will go soon.
Although this happened to me, i guess I sort of believe in a god for me but it doesn’t mean that i don’t gamble or drink, smoke or do anything that you’re told you shouldn’t do by religion.
Christ didn’t realise how long this post was until i read it back! Sorry..
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Post by robstokie on Dec 3, 2017 21:41:21 GMT
I wouldn’t say I believe in a person being God as in someone higher and more powerful than anything/anyone else but I do believe there’s something or someone inside for everyone it’s just how you personally see that something/someone. (Don’t know if that’s makes sense to anyone else but it does to me). I never really thought anything of it until there was a time in when my life completely changed. By decisions I’d made, this might sound daft but I used to work away and that was my life until I thought needed to be at home. Wether it was for a reason I don’t know but I knew I needed change. Anyway, long story short after being back in stoke for 6 months or so I felt I couldn’t settle I was fed up started working shifts and I just thought Is this what life is living off a buzzer in a factory where I’m just a number to everyone. In the end I reached breaking point i felt that fed up with everything I didn’t know who to turn too or who was really there for me. Then one day I took my misses to Wilko in Longton and I just sat in the car waiting for her and I just cried. I don’t know why or what was the tipping point but sitting in my Car in Longton I cried and whilst I was pulling myself together before my lady come back out the shop and saw me crying I just said out loud all my problems and even though I was in the car on myself I felt like someone was finally listening to me and understanding me and that it was ok to get it off my chest no one will judge Me. After that I felt better straight away and carried on and remembered the people I love and how lucky I am to have people in my life etc and I never thought anymore of it. Until maybe 6 weeks ago I was out walking the dog and I sat down on a rock and I thought about that moment of my life and who was it I was talking to who was it who listened without saying anything. Since then I’ve thought about going church but everytime I’ve gone to go I don’t feel it’s the right time. I don’t know if I’m making excuses or what but I know I will go soon. Although this happened to me, i guess I sort of believe in a god for me but it doesn’t mean that i don’t gamble or drink, smoke or do anything that you’re told you shouldn’t do by religion. Christ didn’t realise how long this post was until i read it back! Sorry.. Interesting post mate. Why do things happen? Well never get to the bottom of it I expect. For me personally, science can explain and cover the things we already know with rationale and logic, whereas religion is all very vague. The reason I cant believe in god though, is the hypocrisy of the bibles (or any holy books teachings) teachings (love thy neighbour and don't judge those who are sinners, but cast aside those who don't believe or those who choose to live their lives in a manner that's against the word of god - such as homosexuals) and the people within the who use religion as a tool to con the most vulnerable and desperate into parting with their cash for a vague feeling that someone actually cares (evangelists are generally the worst for this). On top of that, if god did theoretically exist, why is there hatred, evil and war in the world? Also, if there is a god, surely there would be only one actual god/belief system that is right and the rest would be proven as false messiahs. As I said, its a subject too complex and uncertain for anyone to truly understand - I just don't buy into it as its too vague, too political and and leads to people dividing rather than uniting.
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Post by chigstoke on Dec 3, 2017 21:43:32 GMT
I do not. I am open to someone providing undeniable proof of his existence, which basically means if God came down from the heavens to give me a slap and say 'Yes I'm fucking real' then I'd say yes, yes I do believe in him. Unfortunately @revival no matter how many times I may pray to the God of football (I will make an exception for the existence of this one), he is a prick because Stoke always seem to lose when I desperately pray for a win, yesterday aside of course!
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Post by boothenboys1863 on Dec 3, 2017 21:57:58 GMT
I wouldn’t say I believe in a person being God as in someone higher and more powerful than anything/anyone else but I do believe there’s something or someone inside for everyone it’s just how you personally see that something/someone. (Don’t know if that’s makes sense to anyone else but it does to me). I never really thought anything of it until there was a time in when my life completely changed. By decisions I’d made, this might sound daft but I used to work away and that was my life until I thought needed to be at home. Wether it was for a reason I don’t know but I knew I needed change. Anyway, long story short after being back in stoke for 6 months or so I felt I couldn’t settle I was fed up started working shifts and I just thought Is this what life is living off a buzzer in a factory where I’m just a number to everyone. In the end I reached breaking point i felt that fed up with everything I didn’t know who to turn too or who was really there for me. Then one day I took my misses to Wilko in Longton and I just sat in the car waiting for her and I just cried. I don’t know why or what was the tipping point but sitting in my Car in Longton I cried and whilst I was pulling myself together before my lady come back out the shop and saw me crying I just said out loud all my problems and even though I was in the car on myself I felt like someone was finally listening to me and understanding me and that it was ok to get it off my chest no one will judge Me. After that I felt better straight away and carried on and remembered the people I love and how lucky I am to have people in my life etc and I never thought anymore of it. Until maybe 6 weeks ago I was out walking the dog and I sat down on a rock and I thought about that moment of my life and who was it I was talking to who was it who listened without saying anything. Since then I’ve thought about going church but everytime I’ve gone to go I don’t feel it’s the right time. I don’t know if I’m making excuses or what but I know I will go soon. Although this happened to me, i guess I sort of believe in a god for me but it doesn’t mean that i don’t gamble or drink, smoke or do anything that you’re told you shouldn’t do by religion. Christ didn’t realise how long this post was until i read it back! Sorry.. Interesting post mate. Why do things happen? Well never get to the bottom of it I expect. For me personally, science can explain and cover the things we already know with rationale and logic, whereas religion is all very vague. The reason I cant believe in god though, is the hypocrisy of the bibles (or any holy books teachings) teachings (love thy neighbour and don't judge those who are sinners, but cast aside those who don't believe or those who choose to live their lives in a manner that's against the word of god - such as homosexuals) and the people within the who use religion as a tool to con the most vulnerable and desperate into parting with their cash for a vague feeling that someone actually cares (evangelists are generally the worst for this). On top of that, if god did theoretically exist, why is there hatred, evil and war in the world? Also, if there is a god, surely there would be only one actual god/belief system that is right and the rest would be proven as false messiahs. As I said, its a subject too complex and uncertain for anyone to truly understand - I just don't buy into it as its too vague, too political and and leads to people dividing rather than uniting. I completely agree with everything you say mate, with the why is there bad in the world etc when God loves everyone why do people get illnesses? Why are wars happening? Stuff like that is was makes me not want to believe to the extent that others do such as Basing my life on religion. But after the episode I wrote about in the above I’m happy with my personal views on God. Or atleast I think I am, I think part of the reason I keep putting off going to church is incase I hear something I don’t want to hear at this point and it completely puts me off im sure at some point I will go though.
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Post by robstokie on Dec 3, 2017 22:17:45 GMT
Interesting post mate. Why do things happen? Well never get to the bottom of it I expect. For me personally, science can explain and cover the things we already know with rationale and logic, whereas religion is all very vague. The reason I cant believe in god though, is the hypocrisy of the bibles (or any holy books teachings) teachings (love thy neighbour and don't judge those who are sinners, but cast aside those who don't believe or those who choose to live their lives in a manner that's against the word of god - such as homosexuals) and the people within the who use religion as a tool to con the most vulnerable and desperate into parting with their cash for a vague feeling that someone actually cares (evangelists are generally the worst for this). On top of that, if god did theoretically exist, why is there hatred, evil and war in the world? Also, if there is a god, surely there would be only one actual god/belief system that is right and the rest would be proven as false messiahs. As I said, its a subject too complex and uncertain for anyone to truly understand - I just don't buy into it as its too vague, too political and and leads to people dividing rather than uniting. I completely agree with everything you say mate, with the why is there bad in the world etc when God loves everyone why do people get illnesses? Why are wars happening? Stuff like that is was makes me not want to believe to the extent that others do such as Basing my life on religion. But after the episode I wrote about in the above I’m happy with my personal views on God. Or atleast I think I am, I think part of the reason I keep putting off going to church is incase I hear something I don’t want to hear at this point and it completely puts me off im sure at some point I will go though. It doesn't hurt to try it out - I went through a phase of experimenting with religion when I was about 13 - it was a combination of trying to find answers for why I couldnt quite fit in with secondary school (which turned out to be ADHD and borderline depressive personality) and certain parts of my family being quite religious and therefore finding comfort through that belief. It didn't do anything to help me, but if someone does find some comfort and serenity through it for the right reasons, who am I to judge? Mind you, even if I was religious, I would miss church pretty much every Sunday as I would no doubt be sleeping off Saturday nights excesses, and I would make Father Ted look like Mother Theresa...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 23:19:48 GMT
I do not. I am open to someone providing undeniable proof of his existence, which basically means if God came down from the heavens to give me a slap and say 'Yes I'm fucking real' then I'd say yes, yes I do believe in him. Unfortunately @revival no matter how many times I may pray to the God of football (I will make an exception for the existence of this one), he is a prick because Stoke always seem to lose when I desperately pray for a win, yesterday aside of course! Someone slapped you on the arse when you were born People never seem to have a problem with the miracle of birth despite not knowing anything about the time before it^ I've been close to death a few times through illness and accidents. It hasn't made me closer to a God person, it has made me value my life more realising how I risked it and wasted it when I was younger. It has made me feel I'm here for a purpose, that may be a small part in another important persons life and I may have already made that contribution and am now waste product. Someone or something gave me a big gob and half a brain with a hatred of injustice. I'm sure that combination has a use somewhere. It seems to me we all have a part to play in the saga of mankind.
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Post by starkiller on Dec 4, 2017 8:02:37 GMT
People believed in many gods for more of human history than just the one. And most their other ideas were stolen for Christianity. So what makes the many gods idea wrong and one god idea right, in a religious person's mind? Many Gods would never agree on anything just like us. Many religious people cannot agree on god. Amongst believers, he's adjusted to fit the individual by the individual.
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 4, 2017 8:26:03 GMT
Many Gods would never agree on anything just like us. Many religious people cannot agree on god. Amongst believers, he's adjusted to fit the individual by the individual. Also adjusted to fit the tastes of the times
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Post by starkiller on Dec 4, 2017 8:28:39 GMT
Many religious people cannot agree on god. Amongst believers, he's adjusted to fit the individual by the individual. Also adjusted to fit the tastes of the times Is he transgender? We already have transgender vicars. Maybe he's non-binary.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 4, 2017 10:00:40 GMT
God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 4, 2017 10:46:35 GMT
Also adjusted to fit the tastes of the times Is he transgender? We already have transgender vicars. Maybe he's non-binary. One day it'll be compulsory
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Post by Northy on Dec 4, 2017 16:22:42 GMT
Yes who created 'god' then ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 22:18:31 GMT
Yes who created 'god' then ? His mum and dad....Derrrr
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Dec 5, 2017 23:37:56 GMT
I'm an Athiest,thank God.
If there is an Heaven and a Hell, where did all the dead people go,before God was thought of?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 21:46:25 GMT
I'm an Athiest,thank God. If there is an Heaven and a Hell, where did all the dead people go,before God was thought of? The same place that the sailors went at the edge of the world until we realised the Earth was round. God the creator is not an invention of Man , it's the other way around.
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Post by starkiller on Dec 6, 2017 22:03:16 GMT
I've had conversations with these 'bible-believing' Christians who tell me about the authority of the 'word of god'.
Even these folk cannot agree on god and have their own personal version adjusted to fit their tastes.
The Force is Star Wars makes more sense - well until Disney fucked it up, anyway.
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Dec 6, 2017 23:50:41 GMT
I do! Full blooded lover of the Lord and unashamed of it!! Still love you guys too
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