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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 7, 2017 7:06:03 GMT
I mean, break up play, do a simple short pass, then repeat. Hardly rocket science is it?
Are they even a new thing? When was the first time you heard the words defensive and midfielder joined together?
Are they really pretty crap midfielders and all clubs have made a gentleman's agreement to cancel eachothers out by generally having 2 of the useless fuckers per side?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 7, 2017 7:10:46 GMT
I mean, break up play, do a simple short pass, then repeat. Hardly rocket science is it? Are they even a new thing? When was the first time you heard the words defensive and midfielder joined together? Are they really pretty crap midfielders and all clubs have made a gentleman's agreement to cancel eachothers out by generally having 2 of the useless fuckers per side? I tend to agree when you see the two fucking wardrobes England fielded the other night, then you see N'Golo Kanté and realise it can be a thing of absolute beauty. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 7:16:00 GMT
The really good defensive midfielders do so much more than just defend though, but I agree with what you're saying about a good percentage of them.
They aren't a new breed though they've been around for yonks.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 7, 2017 7:21:03 GMT
Used to ba called a enforcer in my time almost every team had one to protect the playmakers
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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 7, 2017 7:27:03 GMT
Used to ba called a enforcer in my time almost every team had one to protect the playmakers I prefer enforcer. Far more manly. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 7, 2017 7:38:43 GMT
I mean, break up play, do a simple short pass, then repeat. Hardly rocket science is it? Are they even a new thing? When was the first time you heard the words defensive and midfielder joined together? Are they really pretty crap midfielders and all clubs have made a gentleman's agreement to cancel eachothers out by generally having 2 of the useless fuckers per side? I tend to agree when you see the two fucking wardrobes England fielded the other night, then you see N'Golo Kanté and realise it can be a thing of absolute beauty. Henderson is a perfect example, Kante a glorious exception to the rule! As far apart as Bella Emberg and Raquel Welch. |
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Post by wuzza on Oct 7, 2017 7:44:56 GMT
Need to be able to read the game and cover a load of ground (quickly) so it's not exactly a role you could pick someone off the street to fill, but an athlete with reasonable ability should be coachable into the role.
Mind you taking killer set pieces and defending as an organised unit should also be coachable.
I wonder what they do for 6 days a week in the current game sometimes.
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Post by Dave the Rave on Oct 7, 2017 8:18:32 GMT
I mean, break up play, do a simple short pass, then repeat. Hardly rocket science is it? Are they even a new thing? When was the first time you heard the words defensive and midfielder joined together? Are they really pretty crap midfielders and all clubs have made a gentleman's agreement to cancel eachothers out by generally having 2 of the useless fuckers per side? Having watched Glenn Whelan for the best part of a decade, how can you possibly post this drivel?! |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 7, 2017 8:48:16 GMT
I mean, break up play, do a simple short pass, then repeat. Hardly rocket science is it? Are they even a new thing? When was the first time you heard the words defensive and midfielder joined together? Are they really pretty crap midfielders and all clubs have made a gentleman's agreement to cancel eachothers out by generally having 2 of the useless fuckers per side? Having watched Glenn Whelan for the best part of a decade, how can you possibly post this drivel?!  |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 7, 2017 8:55:54 GMT
They’re not, no. People’s inability to comprehend what they do drives me up the fucking wall.
To be good at it you need to be disciplined and have a good football brain. You have to plug the gaps and be alive to the danger when the full backs go forward. You have to be hyper aware at all times - you can’t switch off.
When Real Madrid signed Beckham but sold Makelele Zidane asked the president why he’d bought a fancy wing mirror when he’d just sold the engine.
There’s a reason the best teams all have one and if it was that easy then more than one of the 546 central midfielders we’ve had at the club over the last decade would’ve been able to play the role.
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Post by potterspele on Oct 7, 2017 9:05:14 GMT
The really quality ones have the defensive positioning and organisation to hold the midfield unit together at the back but tend to also have another string to their bow.
Xabi Alonso, Busquets, Kante are good examples - all solid defenders (with different styles admittedly) but also have a unique talent different to the others but utilised to transcend the DMF role.
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Oct 7, 2017 9:21:20 GMT
When I was younger, I used to love watching forwards and wingers, as we all do, I was in awe of their pace, ability to beat a man and their finishing, but as I've grown older, the players I look out for on the pitch now aren't the forwards, but the centre mids, particularly the defensive mids.
There's a unique pleasure than can be derived from watching a top defensive midfielder at work, your Makelele's, your Kante's, your Busquets's etc., in my opinion they play the most vital role on the pitch, they dictate the speed of play, look at when we had N'Zonzi, the game seemed to bend and twist to his will when he was on the ball, they can stop an opponents attack one second and release you on the counter the next, without that balance in your team, you easily become overrun, I mean look at the state we were in last season because our midfield was practically transparent.
It allows the centre backs to remain in position and not be suckered forward into making a tackle, thus leaving a gap in behind, it's a highly skilled role which only recently in my opinion has been getting the plaudits it deserves, I've played in many positions on a football pitch, I started out as a RB, moved to the wing, up front and even had a stint as an attacking mid, but nothing gives me more joy than being "the engine room", I get more joy out of watching N'Golo Kante on the pitch than I do Cristiano Ronaldo, honestly.
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Oct 7, 2017 9:32:55 GMT
Wotcha all on about? ??? Dave Brammer had the position down to an art!!! |
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Post by samba :) on Oct 7, 2017 9:43:22 GMT
Have you ever done it?
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Post by StatesideStokie on Oct 7, 2017 14:44:45 GMT
Kante is probably the best around right now. So much more to his game than the OP is suggesting.
Idrissa Gueye At Everton is another one who could go on to become a top class player in that position. He was fucking immense against us in that first game at Goodson.
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Post by Fred Merger on Oct 7, 2017 14:46:59 GMT
Wotcha all on about? ??? Dave Brammer had the position down to an art!!! Don't forget Brian Talbot! |
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Post by manchesterpotter on Oct 7, 2017 14:48:08 GMT
Gilberto Silva was a master at it. The Brazilians called him 'The Invisible Wall'.
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Oct 7, 2017 16:32:10 GMT
Wotcha all on about? ??? Dave Brammer had the position down to an art!!! Don't forget Brian Talbot! Brian Talbot was ace...... At the time!!! Now Henrik Risom was a different level..... shame it was a shite level!!! Ps, he was ugly as well!!! |
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 7, 2017 17:00:41 GMT
Completely disagree with the OP.
In my opinion it's the most important and difficult position with immense responsibility and the potential to be a decisive influence in a game.
It demands great intelligence, vision, stamina and technical ability.
As Momo says earlier in the thread Kante on his game is phenomenal.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 7, 2017 17:16:35 GMT
Completely disagree with the OP. In my opinion it's the most important and difficult position with immense responsibility and the potential to be a decisive influence in a game. It demands great intelligence, vision, stamina and technical ability. As Momo says earlier in the thread Kante on his game is phenomenal. Is Kante a defensive midfielder though? He has fantastic defensive qualities for sure but he's so much more than that. He's a proper midfield player capable of contributing in all areas of the pitch, including chipping in with a few goals. Proper midfielders can do everything and Kante does everything. They are a rare breed these days and England certainly don't have one. The defensive midfield role, when all they do is contribute defensively has been invented for ridiculously limited players like Jordan Henderson so that they can be seen to have some kind of role in a game when in truth, they are so one dimensional its embarrassing. |
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Post by outspaced on Oct 7, 2017 17:27:05 GMT
Couple of good examples are Dunga for Brazil who brought some steel to add to the flair and it helped them to win the World Cup in 1994.
And anybody remember Dieter Eilts for Germany in 1996? A real spoiler who was brilliant in the role and of course they won it.
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Post by kustokie on Oct 7, 2017 17:54:13 GMT
Nobby Stiles was a master of this position and Sir Alf believed Nobby had the best football brain he had ever encountered. Waddo had similar players like John Mahoney. It's not a new concept.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 7, 2017 18:47:27 GMT
Kante doesn’t and won’t chip in with many goals or assists but he is probably the best in the league in that position, because he has energy and a range of passing that goes beyond just sitting and shielding.
Likewise Matic is combative and positive and has an eye for a pass.
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Post by basingstokie on Oct 7, 2017 19:04:07 GMT
I don't think anyone could have said Makelele was stealing a living. He was the original exponent of the true defensive midfielder and was absolutely instrumental.
Similar could be said for Kante in the modern game
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 7, 2017 19:28:37 GMT
Completely disagree with the OP. In my opinion it's the most important and difficult position with immense responsibility and the potential to be a decisive influence in a game. It demands great intelligence, vision, stamina and technical ability. As Momo says earlier in the thread Kante on his game is phenomenal. Is Kante a defensive midfielder though? He has fantastic defensive qualities for sure but he's so much more than that. He's a proper midfield player capable of contributing in all areas of the pitch, including chipping in with a few goals. Proper midfielders can do everything and Kante does everything. They are a rare breed these days and England certainly don't have one. The defensive midfield role, when all they do is contribute defensively has been invented for ridiculously limited players like Jordan Henderson so that they can be seen to have some kind of role in a game when in truth, they are so one dimensional its embarrassing. I get what you're saying. But as good as Kante is technically I think it's his mental ability that sets him apart. Rather than trying to do everything he is economical in his approach and seems to judge perfectly when to be defensive, attacking or simply kill a game. And it's that mental ability that Fletcher seems to have and hopefully we will continue to benefit from. It's a position of great responsibility and you have to be happy to do the dirty work and allow others to grab the headlines. My favourite player of all time was Roy Keane and like Kante he was so much more than a CDM. That said, just like Kante, he absolutely controlled games from a similar position. If Kante scored as many as Keane he could well become my new favourite! |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 7, 2017 19:58:55 GMT
Is Kante a defensive midfielder though? He has fantastic defensive qualities for sure but he's so much more than that. He's a proper midfield player capable of contributing in all areas of the pitch, including chipping in with a few goals. Proper midfielders can do everything and Kante does everything. They are a rare breed these days and England certainly don't have one. The defensive midfield role, when all they do is contribute defensively has been invented for ridiculously limited players like Jordan Henderson so that they can be seen to have some kind of role in a game when in truth, they are so one dimensional its embarrassing. I get what you're saying. But as good as Kante is technically I think it's his mental ability that sets him apart. Rather than trying to do everything he is economical in his approach and seems to judge perfectly when to be defensive, attacking or simply kill a game. And it's that mental ability that Fletcher seems to have and hopefully we will continue to benefit from. It's a position of great responsibility and you have to be happy to do the dirty work and allow others to grab the headlines. My favourite player of all time was Roy Keane and like Kante he was so much more than a CDM. That said, just like Kante, he absolutely controlled games from a similar position. If Kante scored as many as Keane he could well become my new favourite! My favourite non stoke players were always Bryan Robson and mark Hughes  |
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 7, 2017 21:01:07 GMT
If the back three is functioning properly there's no need for a dedicated defensive midfielder.
Of course you need defensive nouse throughout the team but it's two midfielders, such a creative waste if one of them is expected to sit.
Never struck me that Hughes has tried to upgrade/replace Whelan with a similar type, even tried to get Glenn to break out of the defensive cage.
A higher back three and two box to boxers with understanding and the ability to defend as required is the way, and fits with Hughes and co's ethos
Joe Allen now seems to do the 'Whelan' work but far higher up the pitch.
I like that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 21:01:43 GMT
Yes, but only some of them. Mainly the washed up midfielders that can no longer get about the pitch like they used to and are now being shoe horned in as a 'defensive midfielder'.
Sadly this gives the specialists a terribly bad name as they all get labelled the same. The specialists are excellent at what they do.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 7, 2017 21:11:37 GMT
Absolutely burgling a living.
Easiest position on the pitch to play.
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Post by thedarkknight on Oct 7, 2017 21:20:33 GMT
Completely disagree with the OP. In my opinion it's the most important and difficult position with immense responsibility and the potential to be a decisive influence in a game. It demands great intelligence, vision, stamina and technical ability. As Momo says earlier in the thread Kante on his game is phenomenal. Is Kante a defensive midfielder though? He has fantastic defensive qualities for sure but he's so much more than that. He's a proper midfield player capable of contributing in all areas of the pitch, including chipping in with a few goals. Proper midfielders can do everything and Kante does everything. They are a rare breed these days and England certainly don't have one. The defensive midfield role, when all they do is contribute defensively has been invented for ridiculously limited players like Jordan Henderson so that they can be seen to have some kind of role in a game when in truth, they are so one dimensional its embarrassing. Utter nonsense all of that. Kante doesn't "chip in with a few goals' it's not his game at all. The lads scored 3 goals in Over 100 appearances. The reason he is so highly thought of in that CDM role is his vision, awareness, mobility, positioning, and engine. Not his eye for goal. Also the idea the role was invented for players like Henderson is also nonsense. Players mentioned already such as Dunga, Makelele, Gilberto Silva, Carrick etc are certainly not limited players, and were plying their trade long before Jordan Henderson started pretending to be a footballer. |
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