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Post by gnosallpotter on Jul 16, 2017 2:02:55 GMT
Someone's hit the nail on the head above - Hughes hasn't replaced Whelan yet, our back four is utterly exposed without a defensive midfielder in front of it. We should play Cameron there (I.e. whe Hughes put him in after those first six shambolic games last season) , but he usually needs a very restricted " Whelan" next to him to mop up. That restricted role isn't Fletcher. Fletcher plays the role of Allen more than anyone else we have, but with less mobility and energy. Pointless signing?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2017 6:07:47 GMT
I remember him marking Fellaini out of the game in that position against Man U, he's young, pacey, athletic and as hard as nails ... exactly what we've been crying out for in order to finally give Imbula the platform he needs to do his stuff without any restraints but if that was to happen, just where would that leave Fletcher, never mind (he's not a number 10 in a month of Sundays) Allen?
Hughes is so frustratingly close at times, whilst actually being miles away really.
And you keep accusing Hughes of 'muddled thinking'. Eh? Do you disagree with what I've said about Zouma and Imbula there then?
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Post by Kjones9 on Jul 16, 2017 6:17:27 GMT
And you keep accusing Hughes of 'muddled thinking'. Eh? Do you disagree with what I've said about Zouma and Imbula there then? It's probably something to do with you've been wanting a specialist cdm yet want to play Zouma out of position. Yes I know he HAS played there but his main and preferred position is at centre back. He'll be coming here to play there, you know this as well as I do.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2017 6:22:15 GMT
Eh? Do you disagree with what I've said about Zouma and Imbula there then? It's probably something to do with you've been wanting a specialist cdm yet want to play Zouma out of position. Yes I know he HAS played there but his main and preferred position is at centre back. He'll be coming here to play there, you know this as well as I do. He's far more suited to the role than Allen is suited to being a number 10 but hey ... And yes of course you're right (and I do know) he'll be coming here to play centre back. I'm just offering my opinion on what is the best use of what we've got/about to have.
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Post by Kjones9 on Jul 16, 2017 6:28:55 GMT
It's probably something to do with you've been wanting a specialist cdm yet want to play Zouma out of position. Yes I know he HAS played there but his main and preferred position is at centre back. He'll be coming here to play there, you know this as well as I do. He's far more suited to the role than Allen is suited to being a number 10 but hey ... And yes of course you're right (and I do know) he'll be coming here to play centre back. I'm just offering my opinion on what is the best use of what we've got/about to have. I know yeah. I've always thought that muni would be well suited to play there yet with all the talk he's never really deployed him there. So I doubt he will with Zouma. Just think that you're setting unrealistic expectations of Hughes knowing for a fact he'll fail.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2017 6:46:05 GMT
He's far more suited to the role than Allen is suited to being a number 10 but hey ... And yes of course you're right (and I do know) he'll be coming here to play centre back. I'm just offering my opinion on what is the best use of what we've got/about to have. I know yeah. I've always thought that muni would be well suited to play there yet with all the talk he's never really deployed him there. So I doubt he will with Zouma. Just think that you're setting unrealistic expectations of Hughes knowing for a fact he'll fail. I already know he's not going to play him there, I'm (as I've said) just suggesting what I would do.
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Post by Kjones9 on Jul 16, 2017 7:16:38 GMT
I know yeah. I've always thought that muni would be well suited to play there yet with all the talk he's never really deployed him there. So I doubt he will with Zouma. Just think that you're setting unrealistic expectations of Hughes knowing for a fact he'll fail. I already know he's not going to play him there, I'm (as I've said) just suggesting what I would do. Fair enough.
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Post by alster on Jul 16, 2017 7:26:44 GMT
Allen's ideal position is holding midfielder. Whelan's position. That's where he should be played.
He has the brainpower to play it well and the energy to support the attack. The ability to chip in with a few goals doesn't go amiss either. And that's that.
You don't want that from your holding midfielder Joe.
You want your holding midfielder to sit deep and protect his centre backs, breaking up play and martialling the team, being disciplined and dictating play.
Allen's best position is as the box to box to player where (and you're right) he has 'the energy to support the attack and the ability to chip in with a few goals'.
Problem being .. that's exactly where Imbula and (to an extent) Fletcher plays.
The make up of the team is still very much unbalanced.
I think you've been watching Whelan for too long. Most other CDM's contribute as described.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2017 8:13:14 GMT
You don't want that from your holding midfielder Joe.
You want your holding midfielder to sit deep and protect his centre backs, breaking up play and martialling the team, being disciplined and dictating play.
Allen's best position is as the box to box to player where (and you're right) he has 'the energy to support the attack and the ability to chip in with a few goals'.
Problem being .. that's exactly where Imbula and (to an extent) Fletcher plays.
The make up of the team is still very much unbalanced.
I think you've been watching Whelan for too long. Most other CDM's contribute as described. How would you define the principal differences between a CDM and a box to box midfielder then mate?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 8:19:27 GMT
I think you've been watching Whelan for too long. Most other CDM's contribute as described. How would you define the principal differences between a CDM and a box to box midfielder then mate? People are getting their Makeleles mixed up with their Kantes. Both ball winners and destroyers but both done in vastly different ways.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2017 8:25:50 GMT
How would you define the principal differences between a CDM and a box to box midfielder then mate? People are getting their Makeleles mixed up with their Kantes. Both ball winners and destroyers but both done in vastly different ways. And neither one was/is charged with getting forwards and chipping in with a few goals.
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Post by alster on Jul 16, 2017 8:56:54 GMT
I think you've been watching Whelan for too long. Most other CDM's contribute as described. How would you define the principal differences between a CDM and a box to box midfielder then mate? Dier/Wanyama are both CDM's yet still chip in with a goal now and then in fact I'm struggling to think of another Premier League CDM who doesn't contribute something other than defensive shielding occasionally. We seem to have these roles at Stoke that are unique to us the CDM who becomes so negative he contributes nothing else, the defensive striker, the strange full backs that play rather high up the pitch yet contribute next to nothing to our attacking play.
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Post by alster on Jul 16, 2017 8:58:30 GMT
People are getting their Makeleles mixed up with their Kantes. Both ball winners and destroyers but both done in vastly different ways. And neither one was/is charged with getting forwards and chipping in with a few goals. Yet they still do and always have done. Whelan?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 16, 2017 9:00:40 GMT
This shouldn't even be a debate.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2017 9:05:00 GMT
And neither one was/is charged with getting forwards and chipping in with a few goals. Yet they still do and always have done. Whelan? No they haven't, I can't be arsed checking the stats but I'd be surprised if either player has got into double figures in their entire careers.
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Post by bettyswallox on Jul 16, 2017 9:08:49 GMT
Allen's ideal position is holding midfielder. Whelan's position. That's where he should be played.
He has the brainpower to play it well and the energy to support the attack. The ability to chip in with a few goals doesn't go amiss either. And that's that.
You don't want that from your holding midfielder Joe.
You want your holding midfielder to sit deep and protect his centre backs, breaking up play and martialling the team, being disciplined and dictating play.
Allen's best position is as the box to box to player where (and you're right) he has 'the energy to support the attack and the ability to chip in with a few goals'.
Problem being .. that's exactly where Imbula and (to an extent) Fletcher plays.
The make up of the team is still very much unbalanced.
Spot on. Unfortunately what we're seeing is that Hughes tends to simply collect good players, rather than build a balanced squad.
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Post by juiceandbits on Jul 16, 2017 9:11:59 GMT
Regardless of who is signed, this player - and him playing as the no. 10 - worries me more than any other.
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Jul 16, 2017 9:26:15 GMT
We never needed Joe Allen, yes he had that spell of goals but the team has been unbalanced since he got here.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 16, 2017 10:06:57 GMT
For me for the tough games a midfield of
Delph (if he joins), Allen and Fletcher.
When we play the winnable games Bojan in and one of the above three missing out.
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Post by alster on Jul 16, 2017 11:04:52 GMT
Yet they still do and always have done. Whelan? No they haven't, I can't be arsed checking the stats but I'd be surprised if either player has got into double figures in their entire careers. Checked for you Kante, Makelele, Dier, Wanyama all in double figures Wanyama best with over 20 career goals Makelele 17 the other 2 just about into double figures Whelan has also hit 22 career goals including 5 for Stoke but they must be so long ago I can't even recall them apart from one against Villa. He neither scores the odd goal or contributes anything to our build up play in fact I'd say he actively hinders it.
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Post by cousindupree on Jul 16, 2017 11:15:47 GMT
Hughes has been totally confused by his midfield options since the purchase of Allen ans Allen's one off rush of goals. I get why Hughes signed him at the time as Allen was riding high at the Euros. But we have a huge imbalance in the midfield with bit part players and too many who have similar attributes. I am praying that he doesn't sign Delph it will only add to the confusion. Yesterday as often last season our midfield was an utter shambles
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2017 11:39:18 GMT
No they haven't, I can't be arsed checking the stats but I'd be surprised if either player has got into double figures in their entire careers. Checked for you Kante, Makelele, Dier, Wanyama all in double figures Wanyama best with over 20 career goals Makelele 17 the other 2 just about into double figures Whelan has also hit 22 career goals including 5 for Stoke but they must be so long ago I can't even recall them apart from one against Villa. He neither scores the odd goal or contributes anything to our build up play in fact I'd say he actively hinders it. Ha ha! So you made me go and check, how about some context eh? Over half of Makelele's goals (9) came at his first club before he became a superstar but even allowing for those goals it still works out at a ratio of one goal in THIRTY FIVE games across his career. Kante has scored the grand total of ONE goal at Chelsea and ONE goal at Leicester. Dier has scored a total of seven at Spurs - I wonder how many of those were free kicks? Half of Wanyama's goals came at Celtic where he played further forward. Really I can't have a serious conversation with somebody who believes Makelele's remit was to get forward and chip in with some goals.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 16, 2017 11:46:46 GMT
Dier's goals will be all (if not most) be set pieces won't they?
Either him smashing a free kick in or a header from a corner/free kick.
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Post by alster on Jul 16, 2017 12:02:47 GMT
Checked for you Kante, Makelele, Dier, Wanyama all in double figures Wanyama best with over 20 career goals Makelele 17 the other 2 just about into double figures Whelan has also hit 22 career goals including 5 for Stoke but they must be so long ago I can't even recall them apart from one against Villa. He neither scores the odd goal or contributes anything to our build up play in fact I'd say he actively hinders it. Ha ha! So you made me go and check, how about some context eh? Over half of Makelele's goals (9) came at his first club before he became a superstar but even allowing for those goals it still works out at a ratio of one goal in THIRTY FIVE games across his career. Kante has scored the grand total of ONE goal at Chelsea and ONE goal at Leicester. Dier has scored a total of seven at Spurs - I wonder how many of those were free kicks? Half of Wanyama's goals came at Celtic where he played further forward. Really I can't have a serious conversation with somebody who believes Makelele's remit was to get forward and chip in with some goals. There is a major difference between something being a players remit and a welcome bonus when they chip in. Ideally you want goals throughout the team nobody would say that defenders scoring goals was part of their remit but it helps massively if they chip in which is something that has got worse and worse for us.
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Post by barcaontrent on Jul 16, 2017 12:15:26 GMT
I had thought Allen/Fletcher/Boj wouldn't work, but as long as Fletch and Allen remain disciplined, there's no reason that it can't work. If our defence were more competent and reliable, I don't think we'd worry about the midfield so much. Whilst its undeniable that our defence is shambolic at the best of times it doesn't help when for most of the season I could confidently say I could outrun both of our defensive midfielders even when they are professional athletes
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Jul 16, 2017 20:31:46 GMT
And you keep accusing Hughes of 'muddled thinking'. Eh? Do you disagree with what I've said about Zouma and Imbula there then? Not really. Just disagree with the 'muddled thinking schtick'. As you know.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Jul 16, 2017 21:07:08 GMT
How would you define the principal differences between a CDM and a box to box midfielder then mate? Dier/Wanyama are both CDM's yet still chip in with a goal now and then in fact I'm struggling to think of another Premier League CDM who doesn't contribute something other than defensive shielding occasionally. We seem to have these roles at Stoke that are unique to us the CDM who becomes so negative he contributes nothing else, the defensive striker, the strange full backs that play rather high up the pitch yet contribute next to nothing to our attacking play. If Whelan was a gymnast he'd do a forward roll. And nowt else. Forever.
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