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Post by The Drunken Communist on Aug 13, 2019 9:55:48 GMT
Of course we can trad with the EU.... just that it won't be on as good terms as it is now and it will make us less competitive. ...and there won't be many (if any) countries willing to give us a better trade deal than they afford to the EU. In any case, there is no way in hell we will get better trading conditions after Brexit. (if of course Brexit actually happens). Of course we'll get better trading terms because we'll be going into any negotiations only needing to get what is best for us. Lets pick a random country, say, New Zealand. Right now as a member of the EU we'd be going into trade negotiations where New Zealand say "We want this, this & this" which all benefit New Zealand. The UK say "We want this, this & this" which benfit the UK, but the EU step in & say "Hold on their Mr UK, we can't just go striking this trade deal getting what is good for the UK, we need to get a trade deal which is good for Greece & Romania aswell. I'm afraid that means you'll have to sacrifice 'this & this' so that Greece & Romania can have 'that & the other'" So we end up with a trade where New Zealand get everything they wanted, and we've only got one of the things we wanted 'cos we had to let Greece & Romania get their things too, neither of which are of any benefit to us at all. When we're a free, independent country we'll enter those same negotiations & New Zealand will say "We want this, this & this" which benefit New Zealand, and we'll say "We want this, this & this" which benefit the UK. Job done, simple.
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 9:56:43 GMT
The truth hurts doesn't it mate. Just so you know, Remainers don't hold grudges for leavers getting us into this mess. Once again I roll on the floor laughing I’ve said numerous times that if we had left the EU after signing Art 50 we would be nearly 3 years down the line of leaving and possibly if not probably be in a much healthier position Than the remainers have left us in with your constant attempts to stop Brexit. It’s pathetic mate and I really hope that Boris prorogues Parliament because it’s the remainiacs who started the dirty tricks starting with Miller and numerous other underhand attempts at overturning the majority wanting to leave the EU. Don't you think that before Boris (or whoever is/was planning to deliver Brexit) makes that promise, that they should have assessed the difficulties in doing so? Including potential opposition from leave supporters. It's naive and desperate for leavers to still be whining 3 years down the line about it. Like it was unheard of and nobody ever considered it. It's actually quite undemocratic of leavers to keep trying to push through a no deal Brexit when quite clearly most people are against it.
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 10:05:38 GMT
Of course we can trad with the EU.... just that it won't be on as good terms as it is now and it will make us less competitive. ...and there won't be many (if any) countries willing to give us a better trade deal than they afford to the EU. In any case, there is no way in hell we will get better trading conditions after Brexit. (if of course Brexit actually happens). Of course we'll get better trading terms because we'll be going into any negotiations only needing to get what is best for us. Lets pick a random country, say, New Zealand. Right now as a member of the EU we'd be going into trade negotiations where New Zealand say "We want this, this & this" which all benefit New Zealand. The UK say "We want this, this & this" which benfit the UK, but the EU step in & say "Hold on their Mr UK, we can't just go striking this trade deal getting what is good for the UK, we need to get a trade deal which is good for Greece & Romania aswell. I'm afraid that means you'll have to sacrifice 'this & this' so that Greece & Romania can have 'that & the other'" So we end up with a trade where New Zealand get everything they wanted, and we've only got one of the things we wanted 'cos we had to let Greece & Romania get their things too, neither of which are of any benefit to us at all. When we're a free, independent country we'll enter those same negotiations & New Zealand will say "We want this, this & this" which benefit New Zealand, and we'll say "We want this, this & this" which benefit the UK. Job done, simple. No chance. UK to New Zealand 'we want this, that and this and you get 2 billion trade from us'. EU to New Zealand 'We just saw you did this deal with the UK.. we want a better one in return for 20 billion trade from us.' Money talks and there is no way the EU (or US or China or whoever) is going to allow the UK to step on their toes. Apart from the US (whose real intention is to weaken the EU threat and maintain their own global dominance), there won't be a queue of countries willing to risk their EU trade deals just to give us a better one.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 13, 2019 10:10:15 GMT
Jonathan Pie sums the whole Brexit cluster fuck up. If only
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Aug 13, 2019 10:24:31 GMT
No chance. UK to New Zealand 'we want this, that and this and you get 2 billion trade from us'. EU to New Zealand 'We just saw you did this deal with the UK.. we want a better one in return for 20 billion trade from us.' Money talks and there is no way the EU (or US or China or whoever) is going to allow the UK to step on their toes. Apart from the US (whose real intention is to weaken the EU threat and maintain their own global dominance), there won't be a queue of countries willing to risk their EU trade deals just to give us a better one. So I'm guessing Canada don't trade with any countries on decent terms then? Afterall they'd be 'stepping on the toes' of the United States.
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 10:28:08 GMT
No chance. UK to New Zealand 'we want this, that and this and you get 2 billion trade from us'. EU to New Zealand 'We just saw you did this deal with the UK.. we want a better one in return for 20 billion trade from us.' Money talks and there is no way the EU (or US or China or whoever) is going to allow the UK to step on their toes. Apart from the US (whose real intention is to weaken the EU threat and maintain their own global dominance), there won't be a queue of countries willing to risk their EU trade deals just to give us a better one. So I'm guessing Canada don't trade with any countries on decent terms then? Afterall they'd be 'stepping on the toes' of the United States. If they did, I'm sure the recent USMCA deal that Trump forced them into accepting fixed that.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Aug 13, 2019 10:32:36 GMT
So I'm guessing Canada don't trade with any countries on decent terms then? Afterall they'd be 'stepping on the toes' of the United States. If they did, I'm sure the recent USMCA deal that Trump forced them into accepting fixed that. I thought you'd be all for that kind of deal?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Aug 13, 2019 10:38:28 GMT
Once again I roll on the floor laughing I’ve said numerous times that if we had left the EU after signing Art 50 we would be nearly 3 years down the line of leaving and possibly if not probably be in a much healthier position Than the remainers have left us in with your constant attempts to stop Brexit. It’s pathetic mate and I really hope that Boris prorogues Parliament because it’s the remainiacs who started the dirty tricks starting with Miller and numerous other underhand attempts at overturning the majority wanting to leave the EU. Don't you think that before Boris (or whoever is/was planning to deliver Brexit) makes that promise, that they should have assessed the difficulties in doing so? Including potential opposition from leave supporters. It's naive and desperate for leavers to still be whining 3 years down the line about it. Like it was unheard of and nobody ever considered it. It's actually quite undemocratic of leavers to keep trying to push through a no deal Brexit when quite clearly most people are against it. Where is your evidence for this statement. Most MPs but I doubt the population. And leavers whining about what..........the referendum clearly stated to leave. No mate it’s remainiacs who do most of the whinging and whining. Get over it, we’re leaving. GO BO!
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 10:41:28 GMT
If they did, I'm sure the recent USMCA deal that Trump forced them into accepting fixed that. I thought you'd be all for that kind of deal? Good deal if you're American. Not so much if you're Canadian or Mexican.
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 10:42:49 GMT
Don't you think that before Boris (or whoever is/was planning to deliver Brexit) makes that promise, that they should have assessed the difficulties in doing so? Including potential opposition from leave supporters. It's naive and desperate for leavers to still be whining 3 years down the line about it. Like it was unheard of and nobody ever considered it. It's actually quite undemocratic of leavers to keep trying to push through a no deal Brexit when quite clearly most people are against it. Where is your evidence for this statement. Most MPs but I doubt the population. And leavers whining about what..........the referendum clearly stated to leave. No mate it’s remainiacs who do most of the whinging and whining. Get over it, we’re leaving. GO BO! Whinger and moaner moans about whingers and moaners whinging and moaning.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 13, 2019 11:13:09 GMT
I thought you'd be all for that kind of deal? Good deal if you're American. Not so much if you're Canadian or Mexican. A few weeks back the "EU" secured a deal with Australia worth 50b AUD over a period of time. The person at the negotiations on behalf of the EU was French. The French also got the contract to supply the 50b AUD worth of armaments.The " power" of the EU did favour the EU but not the UK
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 11:19:44 GMT
The only reason we're still in this bloody mess is due to the shysters in the House of Conmen who've been determined to thwart any form of Brexit from day one. The likes of Grieve, Letwin, Cooper, Benn, Starmer, Thornberry, Allen, Soubry, Abbot, etc etc etc all stood at the last election and promised to uphold the referendum result (they're all on video repeatedly saying they back the result and Leave means Leave, no need for a second referendum etc) when being the lying shysters that they are they were all secretly doing everything they could to undermine and overturn the referendum result.
Yes the Leavers have quite rightly consistently moaned and complained that we still haven't left, and yes the Remainers have consistently whinged and moaned that Brexit hasn't been overturned (yet), but the deceitful and duplicitous shysters in the House of Conmen are the real problem.
If Boris is obliged to prorogue Parliament it will undoubtedly cause a huge political backlash but if this is the only way to finally resolve this seemingly never ending stalemate then so be it. I guess it depends what you want to believe and what news item you see or read but from what I can gather it seems that a small majority of M.P.s will now vote for a deal or no deal rather than prolong this even more, or risk a general election. The Labour M.P.s in Leave seats seem to be erring on the side of deal or no deal in support of their constituency referendum result.
As for the vast majority of the public being against a no deal Brexit, well every news item I see (even on BBC or Sky), and many polls, all seem to indicate that the public are completely sick and tired of this impasse and just want it sorted now, even if that means a no deal Brexit.
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 11:29:37 GMT
Good deal if you're American. Not so much if you're Canadian or Mexican. A few weeks back the "EU" secured a deal with Australia worth 50b AUD over a period of time. The person at the negotiations on behalf of the EU was French. The French also got the contract to supply the 50b AUD worth of armaments.The " power" of the EU did favour the EU but not the UK So are you assuming that the UK would have won that deal had it competed solely vs the EU? What this tells me is that the EU wins deals for it's 'members' and I would rather the deal be with an EU member than with a country outside of the EU. Especially since the members fund the union. Also, who says that the french won't subcontract some of the services out to other EU countries? So really, what you're complaining about is that the EU won a deal but didn't give it to the UK. Even though there was no chance the UK could have won it anyway. Thanks for backing up the EU argument.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Aug 13, 2019 11:39:34 GMT
Don't you think that before Boris (or whoever is/was planning to deliver Brexit) makes that promise, that they should have assessed the difficulties in doing so? Including potential opposition from leave supporters. It's naive and desperate for leavers to still be whining 3 years down the line about it. Like it was unheard of and nobody ever considered it. It's actually quite undemocratic of leavers to keep trying to push through a no deal Brexit when quite clearly most people are against it. Where is your evidence for this statement. Most MPs but I doubt the population. And leavers whining about what..........the referendum clearly stated to leave. No mate it’s remainiacs who do most of the whinging and whining. Get over it, we’re leaving. GO BO! Please show me the election where there was a majority for parties pushing for no-deal. Not even in the recent European Election did the public support no deal. The majority voted to remain or leave with a deal.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 13, 2019 11:47:49 GMT
A few weeks back the "EU" secured a deal with Australia worth 50b AUD over a period of time. The person at the negotiations on behalf of the EU was French. The French also got the contract to supply the 50b AUD worth of armaments.The " power" of the EU did favour the EU but not the UK So are you assuming that the UK would have won that deal had it competed solely vs the EU? What this tells me is that the EU wins deals for it's 'members' and I would rather the deal be with an EU member than with a country outside of the EU. Especially since the members fund the union. Also, who says that the french won't subcontract some of the services out to other EU countries? So really, what you're complaining about is that the EU won a deal but didn't give it to the UK. Even though there was no chance the UK could have won it anyway. Thanks for backing up the EU argument. Im saying that the EU does not necessarily act in the best interests of the UK
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 11:51:12 GMT
So are you assuming that the UK would have won that deal had it competed solely vs the EU? What this tells me is that the EU wins deals for it's 'members' and I would rather the deal be with an EU member than with a country outside of the EU. Especially since the members fund the union. Also, who says that the french won't subcontract some of the services out to other EU countries? So really, what you're complaining about is that the EU won a deal but didn't give it to the UK. Even though there was no chance the UK could have won it anyway. Thanks for backing up the EU argument. Im saying that the EU does not necessarily act in the best interests of the UK You're saying that it wins contracts that individual members could not win alone and that it acts in the best interest of it's collective members. Glad to see you're coming around to the merits of being an EU member.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 13, 2019 12:03:49 GMT
Im saying that the EU does not necessarily act in the best interests of the UK You're saying that it wins contracts that individual members could not win alone and that it acts in the best interest of it's collective members. Glad to see you're coming around to the merits of being an EU member. There you go again, telling Leavers what they are thinking or saying. Im saying that the EU powers don't necessarily act in thehe interests of the UK. The French are not stupid. Nor are the Germans. ( Eastern European countries get a good deal too)
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 12:06:09 GMT
You're saying that it wins contracts that individual members could not win alone and that it acts in the best interest of it's collective members. Glad to see you're coming around to the merits of being an EU member. There you go again, telling Leavers what they are thinking or saying. Im saying that the EU powers don't necessarily act in thehe interests of the UK. The French are not stupid. Nor are the Germans. ( Eastern European countries get a good deal too) I know what you said mate. Loud n Clear. You said the EU acts in the best interest of its members and uses it's power to win deals. It's all good in the EU hood.
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Post by Northy on Aug 13, 2019 12:15:51 GMT
Yes but hasn't it already been established that spreading a loss in UK trade over 27 EU countries will have significantly less impact than what the UK will have to put up with.. which is absorbing a loss in trade from 27 countries by itself. If your hypothesis about freedom of movement were correct then everything would have been moved to eastern Europe by now. As for consolidating production and reducing employment, what do you think all leading companies are doing? The advancement in technology is fuelling this all over the world, not just in the EU. Why do you think we have these huge US tech companies coming here and wiping out all the local businesses. It's going to happen whether we like it or not and will probably be worse when we have an 'ever closer union' with the US. At the end of the day we'll get what we wish for. If people think the EU is bad, then just wait until the US get their claws deeper into the UK. We've seen how they treat their neighbours with their America first attitude. The 27 countries argument is nonesense how many of the 27 pay into the EU budget and how many take out ? Germany, France, Ireland are all in line for massive losses malta, lithuina, poland etc arent going to make this up, its cloud cuckoo land stuff. Cant remember the exact figure but losing the UK has the same impact on the size of the EU as losing something like either 11 or 17 of the smallest countries UK contributes to 5% of the EU budget I think it is, 5% from 28 countries ... The EU budget isnt just made up of our donations it's things like Tariffs as well They will miss our donations.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 13, 2019 12:29:40 GMT
There you go again, telling Leavers what they are thinking or saying. Im saying that the EU powers don't necessarily act in thehe interests of the UK. The French are not stupid. Nor are the Germans. ( Eastern European countries get a good deal too) I know what you said mate. Loud n Clear. You said the EU acts in the best interest of its members and uses it's power to win deals. It's all good in the EU hood. In the interests of the" EU" organisation but not in the interest of the uk, " member state". There you go again. Misconstruing what I've said. Who do you think are really the decision makers in the EU? The real ones.
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 12:36:41 GMT
I know what you said mate. Loud n Clear. You said the EU acts in the best interest of its members and uses it's power to win deals. It's all good in the EU hood. But not in the interest of the uk. You've got it at last. It is in the interest of the UK though as it will go towards the EU budget which supports the UKs interests. The EU will also wins deals that benefit the UK and other countries within the EU will outsource activities to the UK for deals that they get. So between an EU deal (that benefits the UK) or a deal that goes elsewhere (and doesn't benefit the UK), we all know which is better. Thanks again for supporting the benefits of the EU.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 13, 2019 12:48:53 GMT
But not in the interest of the uk. You've got it at last. It is in the interest of the UK though as it will go towards the EU budget which supports the UKs interests. The EU will also wins deals that benefit the UK and other countries within the EU will outsource activities to the UK for deals that they get. So between an EU deal (that benefits the UK) or a deal that goes elsewhere (and doesn't benefit the UK), we all know which is better. Thanks again for supporting the benefits of the EU. In the interests of the" EU" organisation but not in the interest of the uk, " member state". There you go again. Misconstruing what I've said. Who distributes the budget? Naive at the very least. Who do you think are really the decision makers in the EU? The real ones.
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 12:54:51 GMT
It is in the interest of the UK though as it will go towards the EU budget which supports the UKs interests. The EU will also wins deals that benefit the UK and other countries within the EU will outsource activities to the UK for deals that they get. So between an EU deal (that benefits the UK) or a deal that goes elsewhere (and doesn't benefit the UK), we all know which is better. Thanks again for supporting the benefits of the EU. In the interests of the" EU" organisation but not in the interest of the uk, " member state". There you go again. Misconstruing what I've said. Who distributes the budget? Naive at the very least. Who do you think are really the decision makers in the EU? The real ones. Mate, the UK is part of the EU so therefore benefits (directly or indirectly) when the EU benefits. It's a case of spreading the wealth. Thanks again for backing up the pro EU argument.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 13, 2019 13:06:34 GMT
It is in the interest of the UK though as it will go towards the EU budget which supports the UKs interests. The EU will also wins deals that benefit the UK and other countries within the EU will outsource activities to the UK for deals that they get. So between an EU deal (that benefits the UK) or a deal that goes elsewhere (and doesn't benefit the UK), we all know which is better. Thanks again for supporting the benefits of the EU. In the interests of the" EU" organisation but not in the interest of the uk, " member state". There you go again. Misconstruing what I've said. Who distributes the budget? Naive at the very least. Who do you think are really the decision makers in the EU? The real ones. What we see in this instance is reminiscent of Animal Farm in that all EU states are equal but some are more equal than others - and none is more equal than France.
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 13:13:02 GMT
In the interests of the" EU" organisation but not in the interest of the uk, " member state". There you go again. Misconstruing what I've said. Who distributes the budget? Naive at the very least. Who do you think are really the decision makers in the EU? The real ones. What we see in this instance is reminiscent of Animal Farm in that all EU states are equal but some are more equal than others - and none is more equal than France. You mean the one with the pigs that live off the other animals work and then sell off the horse for glue? That would be a good analogy if it wasn't for the fact that it could be an analogy for just about every country, union, government and civilisation in the world.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 13, 2019 13:13:03 GMT
In the interests of the" EU" organisation but not in the interest of the uk, " member state". There you go again. Misconstruing what I've said. Who distributes the budget? Naive at the very least. Who do you think are really the decision makers in the EU? The real ones. Mate, the UK is part of the EU so therefore benefits (directly or indirectly) when the EU benefits. It's a case of spreading the wealth. Thanks again for backing up the pro EU argument. The UK isn't the same as the EU. The interests of the country aren't necessarily the same as those of the organisation. And one size does not fit all. And clearly if a multi billionaire business man makes money from a basic zero contract tax payer both benefit
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 13:15:14 GMT
Mate, the UK is part of the EU so therefore benefits (directly or indirectly) when the EU benefits. It's a case of spreading the wealth. Thanks again for backing up the pro EU argument. The UK isn't the same as the EU. The interests of the country aren't necessarily the same as those of the organisation. And one size does not fit all You've made good progress today mate. Thanks. If you've got any more pro-EU/UK examples to share then please do so.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 13, 2019 13:31:41 GMT
The UK isn't the same as the EU. The interests of the country aren't necessarily the same as those of the organisation. And one size does not fit all You've made good progress today mate. Thanks. If you've got any more pro-EU/UK examples to share then please do so. No Im happy with that and your diversion. Not about me, it's about the issues.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 13, 2019 13:37:50 GMT
What we see in this instance is reminiscent of Animal Farm in that all EU states are equal but some are more equal than others - and none is more equal than France. You mean the one with the pigs that live off the other animals work and then sell off the horse for glue? That would be a good analogy if it wasn't for the fact that it could be an analogy for just about every country, union, government and civilisation in the world. True. But imagine. What if you could leave the farm rather than live under those exploiting pigs.
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Post by foster on Aug 13, 2019 13:42:57 GMT
You mean the one with the pigs that live off the other animals work and then sell off the horse for glue? That would be a good analogy if it wasn't for the fact that it could be an analogy for just about every country, union, government and civilisation in the world. True. But imagine. What if you could leave the farm rather than live under those exploiting pigs. Would be nice, but I'm afraid the likes of Bojo, Farage, Corbyn and all our other politicians are here to stay.
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