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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 11, 2024 15:21:52 GMT
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Post by cvillestokie on Feb 11, 2024 16:02:55 GMT
That was an awful watch. Two people failing to have a conversation and instead of countering other people’s points, they simply moved on. Every time one of them said “why is this….” the other countered by not answering and simply trying to find one of their preferred points. Manufacturing will continue to pour out of developed countries. Yes, this is because of “red tape”. The biggest red tape for the textile industry was not dumping gallons of carcinogenic biproducts into nearby water sources. This red tape isn’t as important to poorer countries, who can follow the Chinese model of poisoning their poor to make cheap tat for ours.
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Post by wannabee on Feb 11, 2024 16:38:11 GMT
Richard Tice: "Caolan, you're obsessed with Brexit " 🤣🤣🤣
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 12, 2024 13:55:35 GMT
More evidence, this time from Goldman Sachs, about the economic impact of Brexit.
The UK economy has suffered a “significant long-run output cost” from Brexit, new analysis from Goldman Sachs shows.
Goldman have looked into the economic costs of Brexit, both structural and cyclical, and found that UK real GDP has fallen short of similar countries by about 5% since the 2016 referendum.
To find this, they conducted a “Doppelgänger” analysis – using statistical techniques to find the best combination of other countries that match the path of UK real GDP before the referendum and using this same combination to project what might have happened thereafter, had the UK remained in the EU.
The problem with this Doppelgänger approach is that the UK economy may have been worse hit by the pandemic and the energy crisis than other countries.
But still, Goldman say the UK has suffered from higher trade costs, lower business investment, and a fall in immigration from the EU.
They say:
First, we show that UK goods trade has underperformed other advanced economies by around 15% since the referendum. Second, business investment has been weak since 2016, falling notably short of the pre-referendum trend. Third, immigration from the EU has dropped sharply but non-EU immigration has risen significantly, although the recent increase has been skewed towards students with lower participation rates. Goldman adds that while overall immigration has been higher than expected – it hit a record in 2022 – there has been an increase in overseas students coming to study, rather than EU immigrants coming to work.
They add:
Taken together, the evidence points to a significant long-run output cost of Brexit, broadly consistent with the range predicted by prior studies.
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 12, 2024 16:18:10 GMT
Here is the latest economic status: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/Of course if the UK had stayed in the EU the economy would be 5% larger. Really?! The problem a lot of left wing media and financial ofganizations have is the before and after the referendum they predicted economic doom for the UK. Th ey are now scratching around to justify their false predictions with artificial counterfactual s and doppelganger s desperate to prove they were right.But where are the actual figures for us to scrutinise? Factors like the large growth in east European economies like Poland are totally ignored which is a major factor depressing the German economy which is short of 2 million workers. Germany has also suffered badly from the energy crisis and loss of Russian gas, and the UK has clearly been hard hit by energy costs, far more than France, and the pandemic impact on top of decades of NHS neglect. We voted to leave the EU to reestablish the sovereignty of parliament and make British law makers accountable to the British electorate not the ECJ, and to stop freedom of movement. The economy is struggling because of world events. Domestically high interest rates have slowed the economy to drive out inflation. In terms of exports, which I covered at length, the UK is clearly affected by the fact that 3 of our top 4 export customers' economies (Germany, Netherlands, and Ireland) are struggling. tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp-growth-rate?continent=europeHaving left the EU, the UK is free from EU constraints to grow trade with ROW but that is obviously going to take years.
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Post by 4372 on Feb 12, 2024 16:43:40 GMT
Of course, the UK sovereignty argument is bogus. France, Germany and other EU countries are all sovereign states, whose governments periodically answer to their voters. Can anyone please remind us how many other states have followed the UK out of The EU?
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 12, 2024 17:35:51 GMT
Here is the latest economic status: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/Of course if the UK had stayed in the EU the economy would be 5% larger. Really?! The problem a lot of left wing media and financial ofganizations have is the before and after the referendum they predicted economic doom for the UK. Th ey are now scratching around to justify their false predictions with artificial counterfactual s and doppelganger s desperate to prove they were right.But where are the actual figures for us to scrutinise? Factors like the large growth in east European economies like Poland are totally ignored which is a major factor depressing the German economy which is short of 2 million workers. Germany has also suffered badly from the energy crisis and loss of Russian gas, and the UK has clearly been hard hit by energy costs, far more than France, and the pandemic impact on top of decades of NHS neglect. We voted to leave the EU to reestablish the sovereignty of parliament and make British law makers accountable to the British electorate not the ECJ, and to stop freedom of movement. The economy is struggling because of world events. Domestically high interest rates have slowed the economy to drive out inflation. In terms of exports, which I covered at length, the UK is clearly affected by the fact that 3 of our top 4 export customers' economies (Germany, Netherlands, and Ireland) are struggling. tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp-growth-rate?continent=europeHaving left the EU, the UK is free from EU constraints to grow trade with ROW but that is obviously going to take years. Goldman Sachs. The bastion of the “left wing media”.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 12, 2024 17:37:11 GMT
Of course, the UK sovereignty argument is bogus. France, Germany and other EU countries are all sovereign states, whose governments periodically answer to their voters. Can anyone please remind us how many other states have followed the UK out of The EU? There will be an exodus leaving the EU any minute. Everyone wants to follow our lead. At least that’s what we were told by the leave voters…
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 12, 2024 17:41:12 GMT
Here is the latest economic status: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/Of course if the UK had stayed in the EU the economy would be 5% larger. Really?! The problem a lot of left wing media and financial ofganizations have is the before and after the referendum they predicted economic doom for the UK. Th ey are now scratching around to justify their false predictions with artificial counterfactual s and doppelganger s desperate to prove they were right.But where are the actual figures for us to scrutinise? Factors like the large growth in east European economies like Poland are totally ignored which is a major factor depressing the German economy which is short of 2 million workers. Germany has also suffered badly from the energy crisis and loss of Russian gas, and the UK has clearly been hard hit by energy costs, far more than France, and the pandemic impact on top of decades of NHS neglect. We voted to leave the EU to reestablish the sovereignty of parliament and make British law makers accountable to the British electorate not the ECJ, and to stop freedom of movement. The economy is struggling because of world events. Domestically high interest rates have slowed the economy to drive out inflation. In terms of exports, which I covered at length, the UK is clearly affected by the fact that 3 of our top 4 export customers' economies (Germany, Netherlands, and Ireland) are struggling. tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp-growth-rate?continent=europeHaving left the EU, the UK is free from EU constraints to grow trade with ROW but that is obviously going to take years. What's the ECJ got to do with the EU? Are they not separate from each other?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 12, 2024 17:42:10 GMT
Of course, the UK sovereignty argument is bogus. France, Germany and other EU countries are all sovereign states, whose governments periodically answer to their voters. Can anyone please remind us how many other states have followed the UK out of The EU? There will be an exodus leaving the EU any minute. Everyone wants to follow our lead. At least that’s what we were told by the leave voters… Don't forget cheaper shoes too....
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Feb 12, 2024 17:57:50 GMT
Of course, the UK sovereignty argument is bogus. France, Germany and other EU countries are all sovereign states, whose governments periodically answer to their voters. Can anyone please remind us how many other states have followed the UK out of The EU? There will be an exodus leaving the EU any minute. Everyone wants to follow our lead. At least that’s what we were told by the leave voters… "We will trigger a domino effect. After us, other northern European countries will leave, starting with Denmark. The EU is about to collapse, disintegrating in several pieces.' Nigel Farage - 11 June 2016.
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 12, 2024 18:11:54 GMT
Here is the latest economic status: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/Of course if the UK had stayed in the EU the economy would be 5% larger. Really?! The problem a lot of left wing media and financial ofganizations have is the before and after the referendum they predicted economic doom for the UK. Th ey are now scratching around to justify their false predictions with artificial counterfactual s and doppelganger s desperate to prove they were right.But where are the actual figures for us to scrutinise? Factors like the large growth in east European economies like Poland are totally ignored which is a major factor depressing the German economy which is short of 2 million workers. Germany has also suffered badly from the energy crisis and loss of Russian gas, and the UK has clearly been hard hit by energy costs, far more than France, and the pandemic impact on top of decades of NHS neglect. We voted to leave the EU to reestablish the sovereignty of parliament and make British law makers accountable to the British electorate not the ECJ, and to stop freedom of movement. The economy is struggling because of world events. Domestically high interest rates have slowed the economy to drive out inflation. In terms of exports, which I covered at length, the UK is clearly affected by the fact that 3 of our top 4 export customers' economies (Germany, Netherlands, and Ireland) are struggling. tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp-growth-rate?continent=europeHaving left the EU, the UK is free from EU constraints to grow trade with ROW but that is obviously going to take years. What's the ECJ got to do with the EU? Are they not separate from each other? The ECJ decide whether EU law is being properly implemented. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_JusticeThe term justice is not my idea of justice. The ECJ forced the UK to increase VAT on green measures such as solar panels when we were members. It still has durisdiction over NI. www.internationaltaxreview.com/article/2a695f1keh0nyof3uin7k/ecj-rules-against-uks-reduced-vat-rate-for-green-services
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 12, 2024 18:43:31 GMT
It makes decisions in accordance with all EU laws not just on VAT. Like the use of prohibited pesticides which are allowed to poison us and the environment in the UK, or enforcing workers rights, consumer rights and anti competitive behaviour by big business. Generally it helps ensure the big companies and governments are following the laws in place to help individuals have a better life.
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Post by wannabee on Feb 12, 2024 20:02:02 GMT
Here is the latest economic status: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/Of course if the UK had stayed in the EU the economy would be 5% larger. Really?! The problem a lot of left wing media and financial ofganizations have is the before and after the referendum they predicted economic doom for the UK. Th ey are now scratching around to justify their false predictions with artificial counterfactual s and doppelganger s desperate to prove they were right.But where are the actual figures for us to scrutinise? Factors like the large growth in east European economies like Poland are totally ignored which is a major factor depressing the German economy which is short of 2 million workers. 1. Germany has also suffered badly from the energy crisis and loss of Russian gas, and the UK has clearly been hard hit by energy costs, far more than France, and the pandemic impact on top of decades of NHS neglect. We voted to leave the EU to reestablish the sovereignty of parliament and make British law makers accountable to the British electorate not the ECJ, and to stop freedom of movement. 2. The economy is struggling because of world events. Domestically high interest rates have slowed the economy to drive out inflation. In terms of exports, which I covered at length, the UK is clearly affected by the fact that 3 of our top 4 export customers' economies (Germany, Netherlands, and Ireland) are struggling. tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp-growth-rate?continent=europeHaving left the EU, the UK is free from EU constraints to grow trade with ROW but that is obviously going to take years. You have provided a UK Government Link which says - Since before Pandemic UK UK GDP Growth is less than half EU *Average 1.4% / 3.0% and
- Within G7 UK GDP Growth is only better than Germany
Are you saying this is cause for Celebration? * If at Average GDP Growth the extra £40Bn would come in handy 1. It is tiresome that Government Ministers trot out this disingenuous ambiguous statistic Germany's Economy is 50% bigger than UK and on every Economic measure is superior to UK Debt, Deficit, Education Spending etc its foolish to compare the Economies Germany GDP has also grown faster than UK since UK Brexit Referendum countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/uk2. World Events of course have an impact on every Trading Country The biggest problem with UK Economy is lack of Public and Private Investment over decades Figure 1 – The UK has always underinvested but today is falling further behind Source: IPPR analysis of OECD (2023) UK Investment is at the bottom of G7 and OECD Graph in link Figure 2 – The UK has lower private sector investment than the rest of the G7 and is falling behind Source: IPPR analysis of OECD (2023) UK is at the bottom of G7, has been for decades and is getting worse since Brexit Graph in link Figure 3 – UK public investment is below average for the G7 or the OECD Source: IPPR analysis of OECD (2023) UK bottom of G7 and OECD Graph in link Figure 4: The UK now has one of the lowest proportions of spending to address climate change of many comparable global economies Source: Reproduced from CBI 2023 Spending on Climate Change lower than Germany, France EU and World Bank of Developed Countries Bar Chart in link Decades of Low Public Investment leads to Low Private Investment due to lack of confidence and uncertainty of Government direction which leads to poor productivity and growth www.ippr.org/articles/now-is-the-time-to-confront-uk-s-investment-phobia#site-menu
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 12, 2024 20:19:02 GMT
It makes decisions in accordance with all EU laws not just on VAT. Like the use of prohibited pesticides which are allowed to poison us and the environment in the UK, or enforcing workers rights, consumer rights and anti competitive behaviour by big business. Generally it helps ensure the big companies and governments are following the laws in place to help individuals have a better life. The UK does not have to be in the EU to prohibit pesticides, protect consumer rights, control business, etc. Who dictates the law in the EU? www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/von-der-leyen-to-withdraw-the-contested-pesticide-regulation/The EU is a capitalist organization run by capitalists for capitalist www.etui.org/topics/health-safety-working-conditions/hesamag/work-related-cancer-emerging-from-obscurity/the-world-of-eu-lobbying-in-brusselsIncome inequality improved in the UK after WWI until the UK joined European EC. The trend was then reversed and inequality has stood still of got worse during EEC/EU membership. ourworldindata.org/how-has-inequality-in-the-uk-changed-over-the-very-long-run#:~:text=Starting%20in%20the%20late%2019th,top%20income%20share%20increased%20sharply. ifs.org.uk/inequality/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/IFS-Deaton-Review-The-history-of-inequality-1.pdfequalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-ukAs for workers rights and a fair and equal society, you don't have to in the EU: www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/income-equalityworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-countrywww.cnbc.com/2023/06/23/the-20-best-countries-for-womenthe-us-isnt-one-of-them-wef-report.htmlworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countriesGenerally, the most tolerant countries in both studies were Scandinavian countries, Latin countries, and the United Kingdom and its former colonies (Australia, Canada, and New Zealand). The message is very simple, now the UK is out of the EU, the British people/politicians can make the country what it wants to be making our own laws.
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Post by wannabee on Feb 12, 2024 20:21:18 GMT
ECJ Case Law still retains precedence in GB Law where EU Retained Law applies The Windsor Framework contains a lot more ambiguity and reach into GB Law than I'm prepared to go into detail now There is deliberate ambiguity which neither UK or EU wish to challenge nor apparently do DUP or ERG or whatever they are calling themselves these days
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 12, 2024 20:31:07 GMT
It makes decisions in accordance with all EU laws not just on VAT. Like the use of prohibited pesticides which are allowed to poison us and the environment in the UK, or enforcing workers rights, consumer rights and anti competitive behaviour by big business. Generally it helps ensure the big companies and governments are following the laws in place to help individuals have a better life. The UK does not have to be in the EU to prohibit pesticides, protect consumer rights, control business, etc. Who dictates the law in the EU? www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/von-der-leyen-to-withdraw-the-contested-pesticide-regulation/The EU is a capitalist organization run by capitalists for capitalist www.etui.org/topics/health-safety-working-conditions/hesamag/work-related-cancer-emerging-from-obscurity/the-world-of-eu-lobbying-in-brusselsIncome inequality improved in the UK after WWI until the UK joined European EC. The trend was then reversed and inequality has stood still of got worse during EEC/EU membership. ourworldindata.org/how-has-inequality-in-the-uk-changed-over-the-very-long-run#:~:text=Starting%20in%20the%20late%2019th,top%20income%20share%20increased%20sharply. ifs.org.uk/inequality/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/IFS-Deaton-Review-The-history-of-inequality-1.pdfequalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-ukAs for workers rights and a fair and equal society, you don't have to in the EU: www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/income-equalityworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-countrywww.cnbc.com/2023/06/23/the-20-best-countries-for-womenthe-us-isnt-one-of-them-wef-report.htmlworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countriesGenerally, the most tolerant countries in both studies were Scandinavian countries, Latin countries, and the United Kingdom and its former colonies (Australia, Canada, and New Zealand). The message is very simple, now the UK is out of the EU, the British people/politicians can make the country what it wants to be making our own laws. Since leaving the EU we have allowed more harmful pesticides to be used. The EU prohibits them. You may be pleased about that. I am not. We have a far higher proportion of unelected law makers here compared with the EU. The EU is capitalist. Obviously. What’s wrong with that? Are you saying the UK is not capitalist? Are you saying all leave voters campaigning and voted for communism when voting for brexit? I just want basic protections for people that cannot be undone by an extreme government. That’s what the EU offers. You want the opportunity for basic rights to be diluted and got rid of. Regardless, brexit is a disaster. Less sovereign, fewer rights, fewer opportunities, more costs. Great.
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Post by lordb on Feb 12, 2024 21:46:13 GMT
The UK does not have to be in the EU to prohibit pesticides, protect consumer rights, control business, etc. Who dictates the law in the EU? www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/von-der-leyen-to-withdraw-the-contested-pesticide-regulation/The EU is a capitalist organization run by capitalists for capitalist www.etui.org/topics/health-safety-working-conditions/hesamag/work-related-cancer-emerging-from-obscurity/the-world-of-eu-lobbying-in-brusselsIncome inequality improved in the UK after WWI until the UK joined European EC. The trend was then reversed and inequality has stood still of got worse during EEC/EU membership. ourworldindata.org/how-has-inequality-in-the-uk-changed-over-the-very-long-run#:~:text=Starting%20in%20the%20late%2019th,top%20income%20share%20increased%20sharply. ifs.org.uk/inequality/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/IFS-Deaton-Review-The-history-of-inequality-1.pdfequalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-ukAs for workers rights and a fair and equal society, you don't have to in the EU: www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/income-equalityworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-countrywww.cnbc.com/2023/06/23/the-20-best-countries-for-womenthe-us-isnt-one-of-them-wef-report.htmlworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countriesGenerally, the most tolerant countries in both studies were Scandinavian countries, Latin countries, and the United Kingdom and its former colonies (Australia, Canada, and New Zealand). The message is very simple, now the UK is out of the EU, the British people/politicians can make the country what it wants to be making our own laws. Since leaving the EU we have allowed more harmful pesticides to be used. The EU prohibits them. You may be pleased about that. I am not. We have a far higher proportion of unelected law makers here compared with the EU. The EU is capitalist. Obviously. What’s wrong with that? Are you saying the UK is not capitalist? Are you saying all leave voters campaigning and voted for communism when voting for brexit? I just want basic protections for people that cannot be undone by an extreme government. That’s what the EU offers. You want the opportunity for basic rights to be diluted and got rid of. Regardless, brexit is a disaster. Less sovereign, fewer rights, fewer opportunities, more costs. Great. Ah but we do have Blue passports back OK they were not designed or made in the UK but we have them back Next up old money and half day closing Wednesdays
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 12, 2024 22:14:23 GMT
Here is the latest economic status: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/Of course if the UK had stayed in the EU the economy would be 5% larger. Really?! The problem a lot of left wing media and financial ofganizations have is the before and after the referendum they predicted economic doom for the UK. Th ey are now scratching around to justify their false predictions with artificial counterfactual s and doppelganger s desperate to prove they were right.But where are the actual figures for us to scrutinise? Factors like the large growth in east European economies like Poland are totally ignored which is a major factor depressing the German economy which is short of 2 million workers. 1. Germany has also suffered badly from the energy crisis and loss of Russian gas, and the UK has clearly been hard hit by energy costs, far more than France, and the pandemic impact on top of decades of NHS neglect. We voted to leave the EU to reestablish the sovereignty of parliament and make British law makers accountable to the British electorate not the ECJ, and to stop freedom of movement. 2. The economy is struggling because of world events. Domestically high interest rates have slowed the economy to drive out inflation. In terms of exports, which I covered at length, the UK is clearly affected by the fact that 3 of our top 4 export customers' economies (Germany, Netherlands, and Ireland) are struggling. tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp-growth-rate?continent=europeHaving left the EU, the UK is free from EU constraints to grow trade with ROW but that is obviously going to take years. You have provided a UK Government Link which says - Since before Pandemic UK UK GDP Growth is less than half EU *Average 1.4% / 3.0% and
- Within G7 UK GDP Growth is only better than Germany
Are you saying this is cause for Celebration? * If at Average GDP Growth the extra £40Bn would come in handy 1. It is tiresome that Government Ministers trot out this disingenuous ambiguous statistic Germany's Economy is 50% bigger than UK and on every Economic measure is superior to UK Debt, Deficit, Education Spending etc its foolish to compare the Economies Germany GDP has also grown faster than UK since UK Brexit Referendum countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/uk2. World Events of course have an impact on every Trading Country The biggest problem with UK Economy is lack of Public and Private Investment over decades Figure 1 – The UK has always underinvested but today is falling further behind Source: IPPR analysis of OECD (2023) UK Investment is at the bottom of G7 and OECD Graph in link Figure 2 – The UK has lower private sector investment than the rest of the G7 and is falling behind Source: IPPR analysis of OECD (2023) UK is at the bottom of G7, has been for decades and is getting worse since Brexit Graph in link Figure 3 – UK public investment is below average for the G7 or the OECD Source: IPPR analysis of OECD (2023) UK bottom of G7 and OECD Graph in link Figure 4: The UK now has one of the lowest proportions of spending to address climate change of many comparable global economies Source: Reproduced from CBI 2023 Spending on Climate Change lower than Germany, France EU and World Bank of Developed Countries Bar Chart in link Decades of Low Public Investment leads to Low Private Investment due to lack of confidence and uncertainty of Government direction which leads to poor productivity and growth www.ippr.org/articles/now-is-the-time-to-confront-uk-s-investment-phobia#site-menuThank you for your response. Looking at all those charts summarises what I have been saying all along. UK membership of the EEC/EU has been a huge failure; especially since Maasricht since when the UK trade balance and investment has been little short of a disaster. The UK spent 47 years in the EEC/EU paying in every year, for the benefit of Ireland, Spain, and most recently Eastern European states notably Poland. Is it surprising there has been low investment in the UK during our membership? Now it's time to focus on ourselves, and build stronger trade and mutual investment with the rest of the world, which represents over 80% of the world economy and is growing faster than the EU. It has recently been broadcast as some sort of achievement that the UK is the first major economy to halve emissions. That is hardly surprising - we have decimated our industry during EU membership. Further to your data the UK is bottom of the pile for automation, robotics, etc. and has very low productivity. UK business has failed to keep up because it is easier to import cheap foreign labour. But Brexit has stopped freedom of movement, increase wage growth, and led to a labour shortage. Investment to increase productivity will naturally follow.
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Post by 4372 on Feb 12, 2024 22:39:51 GMT
"But Brexit has stopped freedom of movement"
And your children, and your grandchildren, and mine, will consequently not have the chance to live, work and move freely across the EU. If you count that as success.... Of all the consequences of Brexit, this one damns Brexiteers most.
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 12, 2024 23:51:54 GMT
"But Brexit has stopped freedom of movement" And your children, and your grandchildren, and mine, will consequently not have the chance to live, work and move freely across the EU. If you count that as success.... Of all the consequences of Brexit, this one damns Brexiteers most. 1. There is no barrier for EU citizens to come to the UK and fill jobs that need filling. Brexit means the end of the right of EU citizens to come and take jobs that can be filled by British citizens and as a consequence UK unemployment is now lower than during EU membership years. UK unemployment has dropped to levels not seen since the K joined the EEC in the 1970s tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/unemployment-rate#:~:text=The%20so%2Dcalled%20adjusted%20experimental,by%2073%2C000%20to%2033.05%20million. 2. Much fewer British people moved to the EU in comparison to moving to the rest of the world. 3. Migration of EU citizens to the UK was lower than non EU citizens before Brexit. select-statistics.co.uk/blog/eu-freedom-movement-numbers/4. Everyone is treated equally now apart from preferential treatment for special cases like Ireland, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, etc. Far fairer. 5. There is nothing to stop the reestablishment of mutually beneficial reciprocal arrangements with the EU in the future. Just needs some will from both parties.
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Post by wannabee on Feb 13, 2024 0:08:48 GMT
You have provided a UK Government Link which says - Since before Pandemic UK UK GDP Growth is less than half EU *Average 1.4% / 3.0% and
- Within G7 UK GDP Growth is only better than Germany
Are you saying this is cause for Celebration? * If at Average GDP Growth the extra £40Bn would come in handy 1. It is tiresome that Government Ministers trot out this disingenuous ambiguous statistic Germany's Economy is 50% bigger than UK and on every Economic measure is superior to UK Debt, Deficit, Education Spending etc its foolish to compare the Economies Germany GDP has also grown faster than UK since UK Brexit Referendum countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/uk2. World Events of course have an impact on every Trading Country The biggest problem with UK Economy is lack of Public and Private Investment over decades Figure 1 – The UK has always underinvested but today is falling further behind Source: IPPR analysis of OECD (2023) UK Investment is at the bottom of G7 and OECD Graph in link Figure 2 – The UK has lower private sector investment than the rest of the G7 and is falling behind Source: IPPR analysis of OECD (2023) UK is at the bottom of G7, has been for decades and is getting worse since Brexit Graph in link Figure 3 – UK public investment is below average for the G7 or the OECD Source: IPPR analysis of OECD (2023) UK bottom of G7 and OECD Graph in link Figure 4: The UK now has one of the lowest proportions of spending to address climate change of many comparable global economies Source: Reproduced from CBI 2023 Spending on Climate Change lower than Germany, France EU and World Bank of Developed Countries Bar Chart in link Decades of Low Public Investment leads to Low Private Investment due to lack of confidence and uncertainty of Government direction which leads to poor productivity and growth www.ippr.org/articles/now-is-the-time-to-confront-uk-s-investment-phobia#site-menuThank you for your response. Looking at all those charts summarises what I have been saying all along. UK membership of the EEC/EU has been a huge failure; especially since Maasricht since when the UK trade balance and investment has been little short of a disaster. The UK spent 47 years in the EEC/EU paying in every year, for the benefit of Ireland, Spain, and most recently Eastern European states notably Poland. Is it surprising there has been low investment in the UK during our membership? Now it's time to focus on ourselves, and build stronger trade and mutual investment with the rest of the world, which represents over 80% of the world economy and is growing faster than the EU. It has recently been broadcast as some sort of achievement that the UK is the first major economy to halve emissions. That is hardly surprising - we have decimated our industry during EU membership. Further to your data the UK is bottom of the pile for automation, robotics, etc. and has very low productivity. UK business has failed to keep up because it is easier to import cheap foreign labour. But Brexit has stopped freedom of movement, increase wage growth, and led to a labour shortage. Investment to increase productivity will naturally follow. No you haven't been saying that all along Mr Coke. What you have been saying is that in UK there has been record investment. I don't have an indexation system like you but I can look it up if you like and requote you. Now you are claiming you have said the direct opposite I can agree that UK has been ill served by our Politicians but as you point out they can be changed, inside or outside EU, the problem is the next lot are worse than the previous lot. Its time we took responsibility for who we elect rather than blaming others. You object to Maastricht, fine, but Thatcher was one of the Chief Architects of the Single Market which is free Movement of Goods and PEOPLE Attempts to rewrite history to that fact are futile. Simultaneously Thatcher also pursued a policy to outsource Manufacturing, primarily to the Far East, because it suited her agenda to curb the power of the Unions. At the same time there was a relaxation of regulation in the City of London to make UK into a Service Economy. For a time it worked and the Trade Deficit in Goods was offset by the Surplus in Services. An added bonus was UK Politicians could boast that UK had reduced its Carbon Footprint, but omitting the fact it had Exported it along with the Manufacturing. The jolt came in 2008 with the Financial Crash and under New EU Rules the City of London could no longer operate in a Cavalier way such that the Balance shifted leading to Trade Deficits. These new regulations in the City to the Rees-Moggs and his chums gave an impetus to push for Brexit. Well some have done quite well out of it particularly those that bet against Sterling. Overall however the City's relative position has diminished. Chunks have been carved out and over £1Trn of Assets have be diverted to Paris, Dublin, Frankfurt and Amsterdam. The next downgrade will occur when Euro Clearing is withdrawn. I won't quibble by your overstated size of the Global Market UK is targeting, but maybe you can explain the advantage Brexit gives when Of the 73 Trade Deals UK has signed since Brexit The largest with EU is infinitely worse The Australia and New Zealand Trade Deals are a disaster Financially and Environmentally which you didn't reply to in my previous post The Canadian and Japanese Trade Deals are substantially worse And the remaining 68 Trade Deals are on exactly the same terms before and after Brexit Which Brexit Benefits am I not seeing? Edit: you point on EU Labour not now coming to UK is fatuous because they has been replaced by Immigrants in Record Numbers From ROW
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Post by 4372 on Feb 13, 2024 0:38:53 GMT
None of the points you raise can alleviate in any way the damage caused by the Brexit vote. You miss completely the point of freedom of movement inside the EU.
The EU is first and foremost an attempt to prevent member nations from going to war, like they had been doing for centuries. You don't even need to research this.You certainly don't need to fill this space with spurious claims and unevaluated sources which insult rather than educate us.You just need to go down to your local war memorial, read the names, check how many surnames occur more than once.Then consider the absolutely overwhelming scope and scale of the loss of life and the futility of the European wars of the 20th century. Because that's exactly what the Founding Fathers of the European ideal were thinking and working for, the recovery of Europe after two great wars. They are trying to bring peace, prosperity through partnership. That included being able to move work and live around the EU for work, leisure or family lives. All part of making sure that the people of Europe would not go to war with each other again. A tribute to a previous lost generation. We had this, and you broke it.
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Post by mtrstudent on Feb 13, 2024 5:26:25 GMT
Manufacturing will continue to pour out of developed countries. Yes, this is because of “red tape”. The biggest red tape for the textile industry was not dumping gallons of carcinogenic biproducts into nearby water sources. This red tape isn’t as important to poorer countries, who can follow the Chinese model of poisoning their poor to make cheap tat for ours. I used to think that but the Democrats' bills seem to have reversed it. Here's the investment in US factory building. It's just that Trump and the Republicans weren't interested in doing anything serious to get manufacturing going again, all it took was a few congressional acts. I guess we'll see how it pans out, but US manufacturing looks like booming thanks to Biden. Just unfortunate for him that it'll be years before the factories are built and everyone will probably give credit to the next President.
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Post by wannabee on Feb 13, 2024 10:02:43 GMT
Manufacturing will continue to pour out of developed countries. Yes, this is because of “red tape”. The biggest red tape for the textile industry was not dumping gallons of carcinogenic biproducts into nearby water sources. This red tape isn’t as important to poorer countries, who can follow the Chinese model of poisoning their poor to make cheap tat for ours. I used to think that but the Democrats' bills seem to have reversed it. Here's the investment in US factory building. It's just that Trump and the Republicans weren't interested in doing anything serious to get manufacturing going again, all it took was a few congressional acts. I guess we'll see how it pans out, but US manufacturing looks like booming thanks to Biden. Just unfortunate for him that it'll be years before the factories are built and everyone will probably give credit to the next President. The big kicker in the US is the Inflation Reduction Act IRA (who said Biden doesn't have a sense of humour) will provide Tax Incentives of $1.2 Turn up to 2032. This is to develop Alternative Energy Sources to combat climate change The EU alternative Green Deal will provide €692 Bn (it is expected to go over €1 Turn) for the same purpose To avail of these incentives development and manufacture must be in either US or EU There has been massive debate, claim and counter claim with Labour's proposal, now dropped, to invest £28 Bn a year in about 10 years time. Where do you think an innovative UK Company might develop next Generation Energy Sources in UK US or EU
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 13, 2024 11:50:22 GMT
It makes decisions in accordance with all EU laws not just on VAT. Like the use of prohibited pesticides which are allowed to poison us and the environment in the UK, or enforcing workers rights, consumer rights and anti competitive behaviour by big business. Generally it helps ensure the big companies and governments are following the laws in place to help individuals have a better life. The UK does not have to be in the EU to prohibit pesticides, protect consumer rights, control business, etc. Who dictates the law in the EU? www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/von-der-leyen-to-withdraw-the-contested-pesticide-regulation/The EU is a capitalist organization run by capitalists for capitalist www.etui.org/topics/health-safety-working-conditions/hesamag/work-related-cancer-emerging-from-obscurity/the-world-of-eu-lobbying-in-brussels
Income inequality improved in the UK after WWI until the UK joined European EC. The trend was then reversed and inequality has stood still of got worse during EEC/EU membership. ourworldindata.org/how-has-inequality-in-the-uk-changed-over-the-very-long-run#:~:text=Starting%20in%20the%20late%2019th,top%20income%20share%20increased%20sharply. ifs.org.uk/inequality/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/IFS-Deaton-Review-The-history-of-inequality-1.pdfequalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-ukAs for workers rights and a fair and equal society, you don't have to in the EU: www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/income-equalityworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-countrywww.cnbc.com/2023/06/23/the-20-best-countries-for-womenthe-us-isnt-one-of-them-wef-report.htmlworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countriesGenerally, the most tolerant countries in both studies were Scandinavian countries, Latin countries, and the United Kingdom and its former colonies (Australia, Canada, and New Zealand). The message is very simple, now the UK is out of the EU, the British people/politicians can make the country what it wants to be making our own laws. Forgive me - I must have missed the bit where the UK became a Socialist Utopia....
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 13, 2024 13:27:35 GMT
The UK does not have to be in the EU to prohibit pesticides, protect consumer rights, control business, etc. Who dictates the law in the EU? www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/von-der-leyen-to-withdraw-the-contested-pesticide-regulation/The EU is a capitalist organization run by capitalists for capitalist www.etui.org/topics/health-safety-working-conditions/hesamag/work-related-cancer-emerging-from-obscurity/the-world-of-eu-lobbying-in-brussels
Income inequality improved in the UK after WWI until the UK joined European EC. The trend was then reversed and inequality has stood still of got worse during EEC/EU membership. ourworldindata.org/how-has-inequality-in-the-uk-changed-over-the-very-long-run#:~:text=Starting%20in%20the%20late%2019th,top%20income%20share%20increased%20sharply. ifs.org.uk/inequality/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/IFS-Deaton-Review-The-history-of-inequality-1.pdfequalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-ukAs for workers rights and a fair and equal society, you don't have to in the EU: www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/income-equalityworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-countrywww.cnbc.com/2023/06/23/the-20-best-countries-for-womenthe-us-isnt-one-of-them-wef-report.htmlworldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countriesGenerally, the most tolerant countries in both studies were Scandinavian countries, Latin countries, and the United Kingdom and its former colonies (Australia, Canada, and New Zealand). The message is very simple, now the UK is out of the EU, the British people/politicians can make the country what it wants to be making our own laws. Forgive me - I must have missed the bit where the UK became a Socialist Utopia.... www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/246098/uk-jobless-rate-falls-wages-rise-again.aspxDon't knock it, Brexif is working for the working class. Unemployment half the rate in France. Higher than inflation wage increases which are higher than a lot of other countries. All due to stopping the freedom of foreign workers coming in and taking jobs UK citizens want to do. But welcome in record large numbers to do the jobs UK citizens don't want to do. Payroll employment continues to increase.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 13, 2024 15:15:27 GMT
Forgive me - I must have missed the bit where the UK became a Socialist Utopia.... www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/246098/uk-jobless-rate-falls-wages-rise-again.aspxDon't knock it, Brexif is working for the working class. Unemployment half the rate in France. Higher than inflation wage increases which are higher than a lot of other countries. All due to stopping the freedom of foreign workers coming in and taking jobs UK citizens want to do. But welcome in record large numbers to do the jobs UK citizens don't want to do. Payroll employment continues to increase. With respect, that's nonsense.
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Post by maxplonk on Feb 16, 2024 9:26:33 GMT
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Feb 16, 2024 22:35:05 GMT
Must admit I thought that the equivalent of Brexit in football would involve having possession in the opposition penalty area and then making a series of passes all the way back to scoring an own goal, while the players blame the opposition.
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