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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 26, 2024 20:38:22 GMT
Brexit is a threat to peace in Ireland though and there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that it is preventing power sharing in Stormont. The people of NI didn't even want Brexit and they're the ones who are getting most shafted by it. It's an absolute disgrace that people are now talking about a united Ireland in order to make Brexit work. A United Ireland should be based on it's own merits entirely and not in any form be influenced by Westminster's desire to make Brexit work. Voting remain was an extremely simple decision for me. Right from the start, I asked for it to be explained to me how Brexit and the GFA were compatible and nobody could. From that point on, there was nothing left to consider. I cam only speak for myself. I've believed in a United Ireland since I was a member of the Labour Party, on the Left of it, in my youth. That's part of the answer to the Irish question, nothing to do with Brexit With respect BJR, whether you have personally believed in an United Ireland since your youth or not, is going to be of absolutely zero comfort to the people of NI who are suffering daily from the effects of Brexit. The issue for me before voting, was always about what would the likely effect be on a) the people of NI and b) the GFA. Surely you're not suggesting that because you have always personally believed in a United Ireland, then this meant that you didn't need to consider either of the above?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 26, 2024 20:45:33 GMT
The Vote Leave group, mostly Conservative MPs Johnson, Give etc concentrated almost entirely on Financial Issues Leave.eu Farage, Banks, Tice etc concentrated on Immigration issues What would happen... If we vote to leave the EU We will be able to save £350 million a week We can spend our money on our priorities like the NHS, schools, and housing. Although it was bogus from the start, it hasn't aged wellWe'll be in charge of our own borders In a world with so many new threats, it's safer to control our own borders and decide for ourselves who can come into this country, not be overrules by EU judges. The Boat People would suggest not going well either We can control immigration A fairer system which welcomes people to the UK based on the skills they have, not the passport they hold. Record Nett Migration would suggest this is working out very well
We'll be free to trade with the whole world The EU stops us signing our own trade deals with key allies like Australia or New Zealand, ad growing economies like India, China or Brazil. We'll be free to seize new opportunities which means more jobs. Trade Deals were indeed done with Australia and New Zealand and the Minister who negotiated them George Eustace said they were crap deals for UK. The remaining Trade Deals are EU Rollovers except Canada and Japan are worse termsWe can make our own laws Our laws should be made by people we can elect and kick out - that's more democratic. This is true but so far there seems little appetite to diverge as it makes no commercial sense If we vote to stay in the EU The EU is expanding Turkey is one of FIVE new countries joining the EU. This particular scaremongering was a non starterThe EU already costs us £350 million a week Enough to build a new NHS hospital every week. We get less than half of this back, and have no say over how it's spent. The actual number was about half net when you take away rebates etc Not sure if the savings were earmarked for the 40 Hospitals Boris said he was Building but no-one is quite sure of the locations Immigration will continue to be out of control Nearly 2 million people came to the UK from the EU over the last ten years. Imagine what it will be like in future decades when new, poorer countries join. If 2 million in the previous 10 years was a problem they must be shocked it's 1.4 million in the last 2 years We'll have to keep bailing out the € The countries that use the Euro already have a build-in majority, meaning they can always outvote us. You will be paying the bill for the Euro's failure. Well that prediction went spectacularly wrong as £ crashed immediately after vote and remains about 15% below € and $ than before vote The European Court will still be in charge of our laws It already overrules us on everything from how much tax we pay, to who we can let in and our of the country, and on what terms. It still is in NI which has a knock-on effect in GB as I have posted previously www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.htmlPerhaps the working class in Stoke-on-Trent knew that they didn't want to be part of the remote organisation..... You have literally just said a few posts above, that you believe that most Brits didn't even consider being in or out of Europe until the referendum was announced and they were promised that leaving would make their lives better. How do you think the result would have gone, if vote leave had (truthfully) told people that, we can virtually guarantee you that Brexit will give us 'sovereignty' but we certainly can't guarantee you that it won't make you poorer?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 26, 2024 20:55:03 GMT
I cam only speak for myself. I've believed in a United Ireland since I was a member of the Labour Party, on the Left of it, in my youth. That's part of the answer to the Irish question, nothing to do with Brexit With respect BJR, whether you personally have believed in an United Ireland since your youth, is going to be of absolutely zero comfort to the people of NI who are suffering daily from the effects of Brexit. The issue for me before voting, was always about what would the likely effect be on a) the people of NI and b) the GFA. Surely you're not suggesting that because you have always personally believed in a United Ireland, then this meant that you didn't need to consider either of the above? I did consider the above. I distinctly remember posting Pre 2016 on here that Brexit will cause issues for Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and even the Falklands( ( all in different ways....but Paul, I don't want to spend my evening or tomorrow debating this forever) BUT I don't think my view that I don't want the UK to be subservient to the EU should be changed because of the Irish question. People like Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Galloway....not exactly war mongers, very much " pacifists" etc, were in favour of Brexit. The issue of Northern Ireland has always been a problem since the English/ Scottish interfered. A United Ireland is part of the solution , nothing to do with Brexit or the EU. ( I say "part" because it would obviously create an issue for the Unionists. Are you saying that people are not allowed what they believe to be a reasonable view that they don't want to be part political union with Europe through the EU because of the Irish problem. And I would add that this current government has been ( quite rightly ) absolutely slaughtered on the EE thread for incompetentence, corruption etc.....and yet the same people who criticise it seem to think it ok to criticise it for not delivering a good Brexit....( I don't know if you get that?) to justify Brexit not working.... Perhaps it is the government that you criticise that isn't working. ( honestly , I only put a couple of comments on here just to give a different view, I don't want to continue for now because as I say most arguments have been repeated, I think we know where everyone stands.)
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 26, 2024 21:03:24 GMT
Perhaps the working class in Stoke-on-Trent knew that they didn't want to be part of the remote organisation..... You have literally just said a few posts above, that you believe that most Brits didn't even consider being in or out of Europe until the referendum was announced and they were promised that leaving would make their lives better. How do you think the result would have gone, if vote leave had (truthfully) told people that, we can virtually guarantee you that Brexit will give us 'sovereignty' but we certainly can't guarantee you that it won't make you poorer? I don't really follow you Paul and as I've just said I don't want to go over all this again " for the sake of argument " I don't really know what you mean....but someone else had said that no one bothered about the EU until the referendum was offered. I agree with that BUT we should have been bothered, but we're never actually asked. Most people are not " political ". As i've said I don't think the referendum debate altered people's views as much as is presumed on here. For instance I think those in Stoke-on-Trent instinctively and straightforwardly thought " I prefer British independence rather than being part of the EU" Likewise I believe a lot of Remainers voted as they did because we are naturally conservative , fear change...and it is ( usually) safer to belong to a group rather than leaving and being alone. Nothing to do with the campaign.....other than choosing the argument thst suits your position. I'm out now
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 26, 2024 21:03:41 GMT
With respect BJR, whether you personally have believed in an United Ireland since your youth, is going to be of absolutely zero comfort to the people of NI who are suffering daily from the effects of Brexit. The issue for me before voting, was always about what would the likely effect be on a) the people of NI and b) the GFA. Surely you're not suggesting that because you have always personally believed in a United Ireland, then this meant that you didn't need to consider either of the above? I did consider the above. I distinctly remember posting Pre 2016 on here that Brexit will cause issues for Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and even the Falklands( ( all in different ways....but Paul, I don't want to spend my evening or tomorrow debating this forever) BUT I don't think my view that I don't want the UK to be subservient to the EU should be changed because of the Irish question. People like Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Galloway....not exactly war mongers, very much " pacifists" etc, were in favour of Brexit. The issue of Northern Ireland has always been a problem since the English/ Scottish interfered. A United Ireland is part of the solution , nothing to do with Brexit or the EU. ( I say "part" because it would obviously create an issue for the Unionists. Are you saying that people are not allowed what they believe to be a reasonable view that they don't want to be part political union with Europe through the EU because of the Irish problem. And I would add that this current government has been ( quite rightly ) absolutely slaughtered on the EE thread for incompetentence, corruption etc.....and yet the same people who criticise it seem to think it ok to criticise it for not delivering a good Brexit....( I don't know if you get that?) to justify Brexit not working.... Perhaps it is the government that you criticise that isn't working. ( honestly , I only put a couple of comments on here just to give a different view, I don't want to continue for now because as I say most arguments have been repeated, I think we know where everyone stands.) With respect BJR, you can't say that I want to put my comments on here to give a different view but then at the same time say, I don't want those comments to be challenged because it's just repeating arguments. Well I know you just have but I think you know what I mean. But anyhow, that is actually convenient for me, as I'm going to watch Traitors now.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 26, 2024 21:07:44 GMT
I did consider the above. I distinctly remember posting Pre 2016 on here that Brexit will cause issues for Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and even the Falklands( ( all in different ways....but Paul, I don't want to spend my evening or tomorrow debating this forever) BUT I don't think my view that I don't want the UK to be subservient to the EU should be changed because of the Irish question. People like Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Galloway....not exactly war mongers, very much " pacifists" etc, were in favour of Brexit. The issue of Northern Ireland has always been a problem since the English/ Scottish interfered. A United Ireland is part of the solution , nothing to do with Brexit or the EU. ( I say "part" because it would obviously create an issue for the Unionists. Are you saying that people are not allowed what they believe to be a reasonable view that they don't want to be part political union with Europe through the EU because of the Irish problem. And I would add that this current government has been ( quite rightly ) absolutely slaughtered on the EE thread for incompetentence, corruption etc.....and yet the same people who criticise it seem to think it ok to criticise it for not delivering a good Brexit....( I don't know if you get that?) to justify Brexit not working.... Perhaps it is the government that you criticise that isn't working. ( honestly , I only put a couple of comments on here just to give a different view, I don't want to continue for now because as I say most arguments have been repeated, I think we know where everyone stands.) With respect BJR, you can't say that I want to put my comments on here to give a different view but at the same time say, I don't want those comments to be challenged because it's just repeating arguments. Well I know you just have but I think you know what I mean. But anyhow that is actually convenient for me, as I'm going to watch Traitors now. With respect Paul you can challenge them as much as you like and have challenged them. I could not particularly care less who challenges my views.I just don't want to keep replying endlessly because bof time, when 90% of the arguments have already been done. Never seen traitors, not got a Telly, going to listen to Tidal and prepare my bag for the long journey to Sunderland. Seriously, have a good night!
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Post by wannabee on Jan 26, 2024 22:49:27 GMT
The Vote Leave group, mostly Conservative MPs Johnson, Give etc concentrated almost entirely on Financial Issues Leave.eu Farage, Banks, Tice etc concentrated on Immigration issues What would happen... If we vote to leave the EU We will be able to save £350 million a week We can spend our money on our priorities like the NHS, schools, and housing. Although it was bogus from the start, it hasn't aged wellWe'll be in charge of our own borders In a world with so many new threats, it's safer to control our own borders and decide for ourselves who can come into this country, not be overrules by EU judges. The Boat People would suggest not going well either We can control immigration A fairer system which welcomes people to the UK based on the skills they have, not the passport they hold. Record Nett Migration would suggest this is working out very well
We'll be free to trade with the whole world The EU stops us signing our own trade deals with key allies like Australia or New Zealand, ad growing economies like India, China or Brazil. We'll be free to seize new opportunities which means more jobs. Trade Deals were indeed done with Australia and New Zealand and the Minister who negotiated them George Eustace said they were crap deals for UK. The remaining Trade Deals are EU Rollovers except Canada and Japan are worse termsWe can make our own laws Our laws should be made by people we can elect and kick out - that's more democratic. This is true but so far there seems little appetite to diverge as it makes no commercial sense If we vote to stay in the EU The EU is expanding Turkey is one of FIVE new countries joining the EU. This particular scaremongering was a non starterThe EU already costs us £350 million a week Enough to build a new NHS hospital every week. We get less than half of this back, and have no say over how it's spent. The actual number was about half net when you take away rebates etc Not sure if the savings were earmarked for the 40 Hospitals Boris said he was Building but no-one is quite sure of the locations Immigration will continue to be out of control Nearly 2 million people came to the UK from the EU over the last ten years. Imagine what it will be like in future decades when new, poorer countries join. If 2 million in the previous 10 years was a problem they must be shocked it's 1.4 million in the last 2 years We'll have to keep bailing out the € The countries that use the Euro already have a build-in majority, meaning they can always outvote us. You will be paying the bill for the Euro's failure. Well that prediction went spectacularly wrong as £ crashed immediately after vote and remains about 15% below € and $ than before vote The European Court will still be in charge of our laws It already overrules us on everything from how much tax we pay, to who we can let in and our of the country, and on what terms. It still is in NI which has a knock-on effect in GB as I have posted previously www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.htmlBrexit wasn't about trade. I don't think the campaigns had as much impact as many on here would like to think. I think when asked the question, when given the opportunity, most people who voted leave did understand the question, and simply believed that they wanted independence from the EU. This seems difficult for some to understand , I believe, but when the campaigns talked about " we can do this post Brexit, we can do that....."...the message was that the UK could be free from Brussels to make deals....ie independence. Independence to make our own decisions in Parliament. Without reference to Courts of Justice, Commissions, EU parliaments. No politician can predict the future. There may be an element of teaching the UK a lesson. We may not have the government or calibre of politician and leadership to take Britain forward. Perhaps it is Remainers who didn't understand the question. Perhaps the working class in Stoke-on-Trent knew that they didn't want to be part of the remote organisation.....and have been badly despised by their" Party".....who will want their votes at the next election!. The EU is about political and economic union. I'm not saying that the Treaties say that. Some things are more important than trade. You only have to look at Ukraine and Israel to realise that. Those that voted leave genuinely believed and believe that it is best for our country ( despite what posters on here say). Instead of accepting that people can and think differently, Leavers have been subjected to abuse as thick, old, racists....there was a great attempt to thwart Brexit........in fact it is a bit reminiscent of Trump not accepting his defeat....it happens in democracies, people actually don't always get what they want even if they really really really believe they were right. Just a personal point of view....In many ways I think countries should be doing less trade. The exception being perhaps to help developing countries. We have to think of degrowth. Environmentally and Sustainably. We ( most countries) need to be as self sufficient as possible, reducing the consumption of resources. Why did the European Economic community become the European Union?...there must be a reason. Ever closer union.....not trade. Why a parliament, MEPs, Embasses, talk about European Armies? Anyway, just going to prepare to go to Sunderland. I won't take part in the (" I told you so" ) thread for a while, hopefully, The referendum was eight years ago.I don't want to waste too much time. Most of the debate is repetition. All in my humble opinion of course. Other views are possible . BJR I can agree with some of what you say but disagree with other things but as you say it's hardly worthwhile rehashing the whole Brexit Debate, what's done is done. What happens next is more relevant Perhaps as you suggest the calibre of Politicians was an impediment. My belief is that ideology triumphed over pragmatism in negotiations. Whether Brexiteers truly believed UK held all the cards in negotiations is hard to tell, the reality is it didn't and the sequencing of negotiations of TCA was dictated by EU and how comprehensive it was, or not, dictated by UK. This may be seen by some as a form of EU retribution when in reality it's just an outworking of relative strength in Negotiators You definition of Sovereignty and Independence is valid but not universally shared. I also think it's incompatible with "Global Britain" How can UK be Sovereign when it's Foreign Policy is dictated by US, its Military Policy by NATO/US these are just the realities unless you are North Korea Trading across borders means regulating across borders, and the more you want to trade, the more regulation you need. I'm not going to engage in a whole bunch of Statistics but EU is still by far UKs Trading Partner approaching about 50%. The major change that has happened with EU Trade since Brexit is increased red tape and non tariff costs resulting in the biggest negative Balance of Trade with EU ever. If UK wants to continue to Trade with EU it will have to continue to follow EU Regulations including any new but without a seat at the Table to influence. I contend that is a reduction of Sovereignty. You say UK is now Sovereign to make deals, this is true, but it hasn't done any. The vast majority of the deals are rollovers of EU deals and the 2 independent ones are of dubious merit. The deals that UK would like to do with US, India and enhanced with Canada are not in sight. The UK doesn't have an International independently Recognised Regulatory Agency and the Rollovers with ROW are based on EU Standards Levelling Up is a slogan, certainly to be aspired to, but merely a distraction only different to the other soundbites in that it has 2 words not 3. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research NIESRs latest Report finds that the equality gap has widened not closed www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/whats-happening-levelling
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 26, 2024 22:54:56 GMT
Brexit wasn't about trade. I don't think the campaigns had as much impact as many on here would like to think. I think when asked the question, when given the opportunity, most people who voted leave did understand the question, and simply believed that they wanted independence from the EU. This seems difficult for some to understand , I believe, but when the campaigns talked about " we can do this post Brexit, we can do that....."...the message was that the UK could be free from Brussels to make deals....ie independence. Independence to make our own decisions in Parliament. Without reference to Courts of Justice, Commissions, EU parliaments. No politician can predict the future. There may be an element of teaching the UK a lesson. We may not have the government or calibre of politician and leadership to take Britain forward. Perhaps it is Remainers who didn't understand the question. Perhaps the working class in Stoke-on-Trent knew that they didn't want to be part of the remote organisation.....and have been badly despised by their" Party".....who will want their votes at the next election!. The EU is about political and economic union. I'm not saying that the Treaties say that. Some things are more important than trade. You only have to look at Ukraine and Israel to realise that. Those that voted leave genuinely believed and believe that it is best for our country ( despite what posters on here say). Instead of accepting that people can and think differently, Leavers have been subjected to abuse as thick, old, racists....there was a great attempt to thwart Brexit........in fact it is a bit reminiscent of Trump not accepting his defeat....it happens in democracies, people actually don't always get what they want even if they really really really believe they were right. Just a personal point of view....In many ways I think countries should be doing less trade. The exception being perhaps to help developing countries. We have to think of degrowth. Environmentally and Sustainably. We ( most countries) need to be as self sufficient as possible, reducing the consumption of resources. Why did the European Economic community become the European Union?...there must be a reason. Ever closer union.....not trade. Why a parliament, MEPs, Embasses, talk about European Armies? Anyway, just going to prepare to go to Sunderland. I won't take part in the (" I told you so" ) thread for a while, hopefully, The referendum was eight years ago.I don't want to waste too much time. Most of the debate is repetition. All in my humble opinion of course. Other views are possible . BJR I can agree with some of what you say but disagree with other things but as you say it's hardly worthwhile rehashing the whole Brexit Debate, what's done is done. What happens next is more relevant Perhaps as you suggest the calibre of Politicians was an impediment. My belief is that ideology triumphed over pragmatism in negotiations. Whether Brexiteers truly believed UK held all the cards in negotiations is hard to tell, the reality is it didn't and the sequencing of negotiations of TCA was dictated by EU and how comprehensive it was, or not, dictated by UK. This may be seen by some as a form of EU retribution when in reality it's just an outworking of relative strength in Negotiators You definition of Sovereignty and Independence is valid but not universally shared. I also think it's incompatible with "Global Britain" How can UK be Sovereign when it's Foreign Policy is dictated by US, its Military Policy by NATO/US these are just the realities unless you are North Korea Trading across borders means regulating across borders, and the more you want to trade, the more regulation you need. I'm not going to engage in a whole bunch of Statistics but EU is still by far UKs Trading Partner approaching about 50%. The major change that has happened with EU Trade since Brexit is increased red tape and non tariff costs resulting in the biggest negative Balance of Trade with EU ever. If UK wants to continue to Trade with EU it will have to continue to follow EU Regulations including any new but without a seat at the Table to influence. I contend that is a reduction of Sovereignty. You say UK is now Sovereign to make deals, this is true, but it hasn't done any. The vast majority of the deals are rollovers of EU deals and the 2 independent ones are of dubious merit. The deals that UK would like to do with US, India and enhanced with Canada are not in sight. The UK doesn't have an International independently Recognised Regulatory Agency and the Rollovers with ROW are based on EU Standards Levelling Up is a slogan, certainly to be aspired to, but merely a distraction only different to the other soundbites in that it has 2 words not 3. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research NIESRs latest Report finds that the equality gap has widened not closed www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/whats-happening-levellingAs I say Wannabee, Brexit wasn't about trade. Obviously we, and the debate is taking about different things. When you say How can UK be Sovereign when it's Foreign Policy is dictated by US, its Military Policy by NATO/US these are just the realities unless you are North Korea It actually isn't , if we choose it not to be. It takes courage, and possibly , going it alone. NATO is something we choose to join and we can choose to leave. People on the EE board are crying out for the UKbto take a different stand in respect to Israel. We could do so, but choose not to. It takes courage. If Trump becomes President, decides to leave NATO, do we leave NATO?
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Post by wannabee on Jan 26, 2024 23:42:32 GMT
BJR I can agree with some of what you say but disagree with other things but as you say it's hardly worthwhile rehashing the whole Brexit Debate, what's done is done. What happens next is more relevant Perhaps as you suggest the calibre of Politicians was an impediment. My belief is that ideology triumphed over pragmatism in negotiations. Whether Brexiteers truly believed UK held all the cards in negotiations is hard to tell, the reality is it didn't and the sequencing of negotiations of TCA was dictated by EU and how comprehensive it was, or not, dictated by UK. This may be seen by some as a form of EU retribution when in reality it's just an outworking of relative strength in Negotiators You definition of Sovereignty and Independence is valid but not universally shared. I also think it's incompatible with "Global Britain" How can UK be Sovereign when it's Foreign Policy is dictated by US, its Military Policy by NATO/US these are just the realities unless you are North Korea Trading across borders means regulating across borders, and the more you want to trade, the more regulation you need. I'm not going to engage in a whole bunch of Statistics but EU is still by far UKs Trading Partner approaching about 50%. The major change that has happened with EU Trade since Brexit is increased red tape and non tariff costs resulting in the biggest negative Balance of Trade with EU ever. If UK wants to continue to Trade with EU it will have to continue to follow EU Regulations including any new but without a seat at the Table to influence. I contend that is a reduction of Sovereignty. You say UK is now Sovereign to make deals, this is true, but it hasn't done any. The vast majority of the deals are rollovers of EU deals and the 2 independent ones are of dubious merit. The deals that UK would like to do with US, India and enhanced with Canada are not in sight. The UK doesn't have an International independently Recognised Regulatory Agency and the Rollovers with ROW are based on EU Standards Levelling Up is a slogan, certainly to be aspired to, but merely a distraction only different to the other soundbites in that it has 2 words not 3. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research NIESRs latest Report finds that the equality gap has widened not closed www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/whats-happening-levellingAs I say Wannabee, Brexit wasn't about trade. Obviously we, and the debate is taking about different things. When you say How can UK be Sovereign when it's Foreign Policy is dictated by US, its Military Policy by NATO/US these are just the realities unless you are North Korea It actually isn't , if we choose it not to be. It takes courage, and possibly , going it alone. NATO is something we choose to join and we can choose to leave. People on the EE board are crying out for the UKbto take a different stand in respect to Israel. We could do so, but choose not to. It takes courage. If Trump becomes President, decides to leave NATO, do we leave NATO? A Message, not the entire message of Brexit was if UK didn't send EU £350M a week we would be so much better off and we could negotiate our own terms with ROW and EU needed us more than we needed them We could have left NATO while in EU I'll leave it there
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 26, 2024 23:51:05 GMT
As I say Wannabee, Brexit wasn't about trade. Obviously we, and the debate is taking about different things. When you say How can UK be Sovereign when it's Foreign Policy is dictated by US, its Military Policy by NATO/US these are just the realities unless you are North Korea It actually isn't , if we choose it not to be. It takes courage, and possibly , going it alone. NATO is something we choose to join and we can choose to leave. People on the EE board are crying out for the UK to take a different stand in respect to Israel. We could do so, but choose not to. It takes courage. If Trump becomes President, decides to leave NATO, do we leave NATO? A Message, not the entire message of Brexit was if UK didn't send EU £350M a week we would be so much better off and we could negotiate our own terms with ROW and EU needed us more than we needed them We could have left NATO while in EU I'll leave it there My reference to NATO was a response to you saying that we HAVE to do what USA dictates. We don't. Nothing to do with Brexit. I've no idea where you are going with the £350m per week,that's just opinion. . Nor who needs who more. Irrelevant to what we were taking about. ( it has been done before) I'll also leave it there.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 27, 2024 2:08:01 GMT
BJR I can agree with some of what you say but disagree with other things but as you say it's hardly worthwhile rehashing the whole Brexit Debate, what's done is done. What happens next is more relevant Perhaps as you suggest the calibre of Politicians was an impediment. My belief is that ideology triumphed over pragmatism in negotiations. Whether Brexiteers truly believed UK held all the cards in negotiations is hard to tell, the reality is it didn't and the sequencing of negotiations of TCA was dictated by EU and how comprehensive it was, or not, dictated by UK. This may be seen by some as a form of EU retribution when in reality it's just an outworking of relative strength in Negotiators You definition of Sovereignty and Independence is valid but not universally shared. I also think it's incompatible with "Global Britain" How can UK be Sovereign when it's Foreign Policy is dictated by US, its Military Policy by NATO/US these are just the realities unless you are North Korea Trading across borders means regulating across borders, and the more you want to trade, the more regulation you need. I'm not going to engage in a whole bunch of Statistics but EU is still by far UKs Trading Partner approaching about 50%. The major change that has happened with EU Trade since Brexit is increased red tape and non tariff costs resulting in the biggest negative Balance of Trade with EU ever. If UK wants to continue to Trade with EU it will have to continue to follow EU Regulations including any new but without a seat at the Table to influence. I contend that is a reduction of Sovereignty. You say UK is now Sovereign to make deals, this is true, but it hasn't done any. The vast majority of the deals are rollovers of EU deals and the 2 independent ones are of dubious merit. The deals that UK would like to do with US, India and enhanced with Canada are not in sight. The UK doesn't have an International independently Recognised Regulatory Agency and the Rollovers with ROW are based on EU Standards Levelling Up is a slogan, certainly to be aspired to, but merely a distraction only different to the other soundbites in that it has 2 words not 3. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research NIESRs latest Report finds that the equality gap has widened not closed www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/whats-happening-levellingAs I say Wannabee, Brexit wasn't about trade. It might not have been for you BJR but it sure as hell is for all those businesses that have collapsed or are severely struggling as a direct result of Brexit.
It seems that you believe that a negative effect on trade and a negative effect on Northern Ireland are prices worth paying, in return for a perception of sovereignty.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 27, 2024 9:35:51 GMT
As I say Wannabee, Brexit wasn't about trade. It might not have been for you BJR but it sure as hell is for all those businesses that have collapsed or are severely struggling as a direct result of Brexit.
It seems that you believe that a negative effect on trade and a negative effect on Northern Ireland are prices worth paying, in return for a perception of sovereignty.
Yes I think we have established that those entitled to vote on the political and economic union of the country have different opinions, views and priorities.
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Post by thisisouryear on Jan 27, 2024 9:50:30 GMT
With the current state of the world I would be more likely to vote Remain today. I voted leave during the referendum but so much has changed since. The world isn't safe and we need to be more aligned with Europe especially with our armed forces. We can't rely on the US anymore which should make everyone a bit more worried what the future holds. Our trade deals will be worth jack if country's like Russia and China start to gain more power with an America divided and less likely to be there for it's ally's.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jan 27, 2024 10:20:00 GMT
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Post by Veritas on Jan 27, 2024 10:21:48 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 27, 2024 11:00:10 GMT
As I say Wannabee, Brexit wasn't about trade. It might not have been for you BJR but it sure as hell is for all those businesses that have collapsed or are severely struggling as a direct result of Brexit.
It seems that you believe that a negative effect on trade and a negative effect on Northern Ireland are prices worth paying, in return for a perception of sovereignty.
UK trade is at record levels: "Value of UK total trade in the 12 months to the end of November 2023 £1,768.6 billion up 3.0% on the previous 12 months " www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-trade-in-numbers/uk-trade-in-numbers-web-versionThat increase of 3% might sound modest but is actually despite a huge reduction in the value of fuels exported dur to the drop in world energy prices in 2023. If you study the above link you will find that UK trade with EU in 4 quarters to the end of September 2023 has been increasing. Northern Ireland's economy is growing stronger than any other region of the UK: "Northern Ireland economy growth faster than UK average, figures show"www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66050860
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Post by wannabee on Jan 27, 2024 14:00:05 GMT
It might not have been for you BJR but it sure as hell is for all those businesses that have collapsed or are severely struggling as a direct result of Brexit.
It seems that you believe that a negative effect on trade and a negative effect on Northern Ireland are prices worth paying, in return for a perception of sovereignty.
UK trade is at record levels: "Value of UK total trade in the 12 months to the end of November 2023 £1,768.6 billion up 3.0% on the previous 12 months " www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-trade-in-numbers/uk-trade-in-numbers-web-versionThat increase of 3% might sound modest but is actually despite a huge reduction in the value of fuels exported dur to the drop in world energy prices in 2023. If you study the above link you will find that UK trade with EU in 4 quarters to the end of September 2023 has been increasing. Northern Ireland's economy is growing stronger than any other region of the UK: "Northern Ireland economy growth faster than UK average, figures show"www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66050860Nonsense, unless you take account of inflation which the figures you quite don't. ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/September-Trade-Tracker.pdfTrade has not even recovered to 2919 levels when you factor inflation The only thing that is at record levels is UK Trade Deficit In quite sure you know this but continue like Rishi in regard to Rwanda that Black is White, some might call it Gaslighting
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 27, 2024 14:09:37 GMT
UK trade is at record levels: "Value of UK total trade in the 12 months to the end of November 2023 £1,768.6 billion up 3.0% on the previous 12 months " www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-trade-in-numbers/uk-trade-in-numbers-web-versionThat increase of 3% might sound modest but is actually despite a huge reduction in the value of fuels exported dur to the drop in world energy prices in 2023. If you study the above link you will find that UK trade with EU in 4 quarters to the end of September 2023 has been increasing. Northern Ireland's economy is growing stronger than any other region of the UK: "Northern Ireland economy growth faster than UK average, figures show"www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66050860Nonsense, unless you take account of inflation which the figures you quite don't. ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/September-Trade-Tracker.pdfTrade has not even recovered to 2919 levels when you factor inflation The only thing that is at record levels is UK Trade Deficit In quite sure you know this but continue like Rishi in regard to Rwanda that Black is White, some might call it Gaslighting I actually couldn't be bothered replying to it because it was such disingenuous twaddle. In the first quarter of 22, our trade deficit was the worst since records began, to then suggest that a slight improvement on that last year, indicates that UK trade is sonehow now at record levels is just insulting to the people reading his post. And as you say, Cokey is an intelligent man, so he knows that what he is doing is indeed gaslighting. At least BJR has the good grace to accept that we're taking a hit on trade but believes that the notion of a perceived sense of sovereignty, makes it worthwhile. Oh and talk about shooting yourself in the foot with his NI example, the reason thst the rest of the UK is lagging behind them, is because they are the only country still in the single market and the customs union FFS!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 27, 2024 14:17:23 GMT
Nonsense, unless you take account of inflation which the figures you quite don't. ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/September-Trade-Tracker.pdfTrade has not even recovered to 2919 levels when you factor inflation The only thing that is at record levels is UK Trade Deficit In quite sure you know this but continue like Rishi in regard to Rwanda that Black is White, some might call it Gaslighting I actually couldn't be bothered replying to it because it was such disingenuous twaddle. In the first quarter of 22, our trade deficit was the worst since records began, to then suggest that a slight improvement on that last year, indicates that UK trade is sonehow now at record levels is just insulting to the people reading his post. And as you say, Cokey is an intelligent man, so he knows that what he is doing is indeed gaslighting. At least BJR has the good grace to accept that we're taking a hit on trade but believes that the notion of a perceived sense of sovereignty, makes it worthwhile. Oh and talk about shooting yourself in the foot with his NI example, the reason thst the rest of the UK is lagging behind them, is because they are the only country still in the single market and the customs union FFS! I do get what you mean about not being bothered to reply Paul. I feel like that many times
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 27, 2024 14:22:26 GMT
I actually couldn't be bothered replying to it because it was such disingenuous twaddle. In the first quarter of 22, our trade deficit was the worst since records began, to then suggest that a slight improvement on that last year, indicates that UK trade is sonehow now at record levels is just insulting to the people reading his post. And as you say, Cokey is an intelligent man, so he knows that what he is doing is indeed gaslighting. At least BJR has the good grace to accept that we're taking a hit on trade but believes that the notion of a perceived sense of sovereignty, makes it worthwhile. Oh and talk about shooting yourself in the foot with his NI example, the reason thst the rest of the UK is lagging behind them, is because they are the only country still in the single market and the customs union FFS! I do get what you mean about not being bothered to reply Paul. I feel like that many times Blimey, I take it you're in the pub, posting pre-match John?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 27, 2024 14:31:57 GMT
I do get what you mean about not being bothered to reply Paul. I feel like that many times Blimey, I take it you're in the pub, posting pre-match John? No Stadium of Light
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 27, 2024 14:35:47 GMT
Blimey, I take it you're in the pub, posting pre-match John? No Stadium of Light That's what I meant, pub in Sunderland mate. My lot are probably just ordering their last pint now! 😉
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 27, 2024 14:40:32 GMT
That's what I meant, pub in Sunderland mate. My lot are probably just ordering their last pint now! 😉 I'm actually in the Sunderland end, I always try to go in the home supporters end at away matches, because I don't like standing up anymore, now I'm approaching my 96th year
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 27, 2024 14:48:24 GMT
That's what I meant, pub in Sunderland mate. My lot are probably just ordering their last pint now! 😉 I'm actually in the Sunderland end, I always try to go in the home supporters end at away matches, because I don't like standing up anymore, now I'm approaching my 96th year Christ alive, fair play to you there mate, I had no idea! So you've always been older than Elvis! 😲
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 27, 2024 14:54:46 GMT
I'm actually in the Sunderland end, I always try to go in the home supporters end at away matches, because I don't like standing up anymore, now I'm approaching my 96th year Christ alive, fair play to you there mate, I had no idea! So you've always been older than Elvis! 😲 I've exaggerated a little bit Paul , I'm 29 I just need to observe the onboard safety instructions.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 27, 2024 23:56:13 GMT
We have truly crossed into The Twilight Zone!
I can't work out if the Express
a) is completely oblivious to the fact, that these are actually WTO rules that Mogg championed all the way through the Brexit campaign and they just genuinely doesn't understand what's going on
or
b) does know that they are WTO rules and is mischievously hoping that the public don't realise/remember and they can thus, use it as an excuse for why Brexit is failing so spectacularly
Whichever it is, these ignoramuses (I'm being kind) have let the British public down severely, there is no doubt whatsoever that Mogg knows the reality of the situation ...
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Post by wannabee on Jan 28, 2024 1:32:34 GMT
We have truly crossed into The Twilight Zone! I can't work out if the Express a) is completely oblivious to the fact, that these are actually WTO rules that Mogg championed all the way through the Brexit campaign and they just genuinely doesn't understand what's going on or b) does know that they are WTO rules and is mischievously hoping that the public don't realise/remember and they can thus, use it as an excuse for why Brexit is failing so spectacularly Whichever it is, these ignoramuses (I'm being kind) have let the British public down severely, there is no doubt whatsoever that Mogg knows the reality of the situation ... Its a) In attempting to postpone the Brexit cost and embarrassment it's been delayed 5 times which as you say is a WTO most favoured nation requirement unless you want a free for all on all foodstuffs from anywhere in the World. No consideration was required to "Protect our Borders" apparently Part of the postponement was due to a shortage of Veterinary Inspectors qualified to inspect and certify as they were busily employed certifying UK Food Exports to EU which EU implemented on day 1 after Transition When I posed this dilemma to Mr Coke some time back he adopted the Rich-Snob attitude that no checks should be required as at Brexit date EU and UK Standards were equivalent All very good but in the absence of an SPS Agreement in the TCA then WTO rules apply More than anything this ideological Bullshit boils my piss that overlooks common sense. Instead we get Charlatans like David Hannon spouting complete nonsense and given airtime as an "expert" Some of the comments on the Article were Priceless. From blaming a vindictive EU to buying more UK or ROW food, overlooking the fact 50% of UK Food is Imported of which two thirds comes from EU
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 29, 2024 9:00:17 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Jan 29, 2024 10:06:17 GMT
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 30, 2024 9:11:59 GMT
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