|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 26, 2018 11:57:00 GMT
Nope, still can't get it to make any sense. Help me out with what you meant. We're being given our own money back which you are saying is a benefit to us! If we had not given them the money in the first place then there would have been no rebate to give. Put another way you, give me £10 and expect to get £2 back, but I give you £3 instead. Are you £1 up or £7 down? Arguing you are £1 better off and not £7 down is imo the own goal. Hope that helps. Right, got you I think, you're pissed off that we joined in the first place and signed up to contributing to the EU budget as one of the wealthier countries? Well, leaving aside the enormous boost to our GDP since we joined the single market many years ago, which far outweighs contributions, rebate or not, the point I was making was how our underperforming economy since voting to leave has helped reduce our deficit. So basically, by tanking our economy and making ourselves poorer, the government's balance sheet looks better. I was laughing at the irony and ridiculousness of it all. I can't understand why no chancellor has ever tried this as an actual policy lol!
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 26, 2018 11:58:35 GMT
Woohoo, does that mean we're no longer shittest economy in the G7?
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 26, 2018 12:01:03 GMT
What?! Brexit means we can sort out our own ace trade deal with the United States?! The Don has said he loves our country & will always come to our aid when needed? What a wanker he is! #NotMyPresident #WeLoveEU That's your wet dream isn't it? You certainly seem to share so many values with Trump from what I've read of your comments on the Cultural Enrichment thread! no wonder you hate the EU so much as it stands for so much that Trump hates. He's really a lovely guy, Oggy, not remotely obsessed with Muslims, transgender issues or anything else which isn't right (pun intended). Believes everything he reads on the Mail online and no doubt much of what Trump says! Gullible doesn't go far enough. Trump just says what anyone wants to hear wherever he is at any given time. Simple as that. And some folk believe him lol
|
|
|
Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 26, 2018 13:06:01 GMT
Woohoo, does that mean we're no longer shittest economy in the G7? What do you want then? What rate do you think we should be at? Where could we be per GDP in 5 years time if we don't Leave the EU? I'm all ears Einstein. You do realise that the UK is the World's 5th richest economy and if you're over 25 on the minimum wage, working 40 hours a week your salary puts you in the World's top 4% of earners.
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on Jan 26, 2018 16:11:33 GMT
What?! Brexit means we can sort out our own ace trade deal with the United States?! The Don has said he loves our country & will always come to our aid when needed? What a wanker he is! #NotMyPresident #WeLoveEU That's your wet dream isn't it? You certainly seem to share so many values with Trump from what I've read of your comments on the Cultural Enrichment thread! no wonder you hate the EU so much as it stands for so much that Trump hates. You're correct, Oggy. I do share some values with The Don. We both believe in our own countries & the great people which live in them. We're both opposed to Islamic terrorism. And we can both see how out-of-control mass migration of unskilled peoples does harm to the working classes & services of the host country. And you're correct again, the EU does indeed have a different outlook on all those issues. Thankfully there were more sensible people who agreed with me, than who agreed with you, and we are leaving the EU. God bless the brave Brexiteers. Each & every one of us should be Knighted & held aloft as heroes for generations to come... Your (great)grandchildren will most certainly thank us.
|
|
|
Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 26, 2018 16:17:29 GMT
That's your wet dream isn't it? You certainly seem to share so many values with Trump from what I've read of your comments on the Cultural Enrichment thread! no wonder you hate the EU so much as it stands for so much that Trump hates. You're correct, Oggy. I do share some values with The Don. We both believe in our own countries & the great people which live in them. We're both opposed to Islamic terrorism. And we can both see how out-of-control mass migration of unskilled peoples does harm to the working classes & services of the host country. And you're correct again, the EU does indeed have a different outlook on all those issues. Thankfully there were more sensible people who agreed with me, than who agreed with you, and we are leaving the EU. God bless the brave Brexiteers. Each & every one of us should be Knighted & held aloft as heroes for generations to come... Your (great)grandchildren will most certainly thank us. Well that's brought a little tear to my eye I don't mind saying. Seems it's not only the great minds of TDC and The Don when it comes to immigration.....
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Jan 26, 2018 21:24:08 GMT
That's your wet dream isn't it? You certainly seem to share so many values with Trump from what I've read of your comments on the Cultural Enrichment thread! no wonder you hate the EU so much as it stands for so much that Trump hates. You're correct, Oggy. I do share some values with The Don. We both believe in our own countries & the great people which live in them. We're both opposed to Islamic terrorism. And we can both see how out-of-control mass migration of unskilled peoples does harm to the working classes & services of the host country. And you're correct again, the EU does indeed have a different outlook on all those issues. Thankfully there were more sensible people who agreed with me, than who agreed with you, and we are leaving the EU. God bless the brave Brexiteers. Each & every one of us should be Knighted & held aloft as heroes for generations to come... Your (great)grandchildren will most certainly thank us. Covfefe
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Jan 26, 2018 21:34:28 GMT
Oh yes, the notoriously reliable source that is Donald Trump. Where's that wall again? And have Mexico paid for it? Obamacare a thing of the past? No. Oh. This is the same guy who said he is the least racist person an interviewer had ever spoken to despite retweeting racist Britain First and his sh*thole countries remark! I am sure Trump will stick to his word though with us, it's not like he has promoted an isolationist pro-US policy or increased tarrifs on aircraft parts from the UK by 200% odd. Unlucky Go find a new bogeyman.
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Jan 26, 2018 21:46:25 GMT
Oh yes, the notoriously reliable source that is Donald Trump. Where's that wall again? And have Mexico paid for it? Obamacare a thing of the past? No. Oh. This is the same guy who said he is the least racist person an interviewer had ever spoken to despite retweeting racist Britain First and his sh*thole countries remark! I am sure Trump will stick to his word though with us, it's not like he has promoted an isolationist pro-US policy or increased tarrifs on aircraft parts from the UK by 200% odd. Unlucky Go find a new bogeyman. Sorry, 292% tarrifs!
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Jan 26, 2018 22:00:00 GMT
Thank you for your apology. Now here's the bit you couldn't stomach posting "Tariffs of 292% will not now be imposed on orders of C-Series planes by American carriers. Business Secretary Greg Clark said it was "excellent news for the dedicated workforce in Northern Ireland and supply chain across the UK, who have a great future ahead". At least these people add something to the economy rather than preying people in an unfortunate situation like you do.
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Jan 26, 2018 22:54:45 GMT
Thank you for your apology. Now here's the bit you couldn't stomach posting "Tariffs of 292% will not now be imposed on orders of C-Series planes by American carriers. Business Secretary Greg Clark said it was "excellent news for the dedicated workforce in Northern Ireland and supply chain across the UK, who have a great future ahead". At least these people add something to the economy rather than preying people in an unfortunate situation like you do. How is protecting children from abuse preying on people? What about helping people escape abusive relationships? Or getting money for people from a cheating spouse? Or helping someone out of an unhappy relationship? Or enabling same-sex couples to adopt be surrogate parents? Getting children time with an alienated parent? Do explain. What about returning abducted children from abroad to their parent? Who am I preying on then? Or are you speaking from a position of total and utter ignorance as to what a family lawyer does?
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Jan 27, 2018 10:22:50 GMT
Thank you for your apology. Now here's the bit you couldn't stomach posting "Tariffs of 292% will not now be imposed on orders of C-Series planes by American carriers. Business Secretary Greg Clark said it was "excellent news for the dedicated workforce in Northern Ireland and supply chain across the UK, who have a great future ahead". At least these people add something to the economy rather than preying people in an unfortunate situation like you do. How is protecting children from abuse preying on people? What about helping people escape abusive relationships? Or getting money for people from a cheating spouse? Or helping someone out of an unhappy relationship? Or enabling same-sex couples to adopt be surrogate parents? Getting children time with an alienated parent? Do explain. What about returning abducted children from abroad to their parent? Who am I preying on then? Or are you speaking from a position of total and utter ignorance as to what a family lawyer does? I was referring to how you expanded the UK economy, or not. If you understood economics, which you don't, then you would know you operate in a tertiary sector. Only primary (directly) or secondary (indirectly) sectors actually increase the size of the economy. All ambulance chasers, house conveyors, arbitration services etc etc do is move wealth around that has been created by the other sectors (unless like banking for example, you can export those services). Regardless of how laudable you see your work it doesn't increase the size of the UK pot. Producing and selling airplanes to the US does. I know a bloke who makes wings for the Airbus A340, he adds value, you do not. You, should he need your kind of advice, would just move the wealth he created around the UK economy. As to having detailed knowledge of what a family lawyer does is irrelevant to what I was saying. Get it now?
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Jan 27, 2018 10:27:41 GMT
How is protecting children from abuse preying on people? What about helping people escape abusive relationships? Or getting money for people from a cheating spouse? Or helping someone out of an unhappy relationship? Or enabling same-sex couples to adopt be surrogate parents? Getting children time with an alienated parent? Do explain. What about returning abducted children from abroad to their parent? Who am I preying on then? Or are you speaking from a position of total and utter ignorance as to what a family lawyer does? I was referring to how you expanded the UK economy, or not. If you understood economics, which you don't, then you would know you operate in a tertiary sector. Only primary (directly) or secondary (indirectly) sectors actually increase the size of the economy. All ambulance chasers, house conveyors, arbitration services etc etc do is move wealth around that has been created by the other sectors (unless like banking for example, you can export those services). Regardless of how laudable you see your work it doesn't increase the size of the UK pot. Producing and selling airplanes to the US does. I know a bloke who makes wings for the Airbus A340, he adds value, you do not. You, should he need your kind of advice, would just move the wealth he created around the UK economy. As to having detailed knowledge of what a family lawyer does is irrelevant to what I was saying. Get it now? So you want a brexit with no lawyers....with no rule of law, because lawyers don't add to the economy? And don't lie and prentend you weren't having a dig at what i do for a living. How many children have you returned from abroad after they have been abducted? By the way, export earnings from legal services have grown by an average of 5.6% a year over the last decade and now amount to £3.6bn annually. Seems that you know very, very little about what you are talking about. The legal sector brings huge amounts of money to the UK. It is of huge benefit to our economy that London remains the legal capital of the world (it won't be after Brexit for obvious reasons).
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Jan 27, 2018 11:09:18 GMT
I was referring to how you expanded the UK economy, or not. If you understood economics, which you don't, then you would know you operate in a tertiary sector. Only primary (directly) or secondary (indirectly) sectors actually increase the size of the economy. All ambulance chasers, house conveyors, arbitration services etc etc do is move wealth around that has been created by the other sectors (unless like banking for example, you can export those services). Regardless of how laudable you see your work it doesn't increase the size of the UK pot. Producing and selling airplanes to the US does. I know a bloke who makes wings for the Airbus A340, he adds value, you do not. You, should he need your kind of advice, would just move the wealth he created around the UK economy. As to having detailed knowledge of what a family lawyer does is irrelevant to what I was saying. Get it now? So you want a brexit with no lawyers....with no rule of law, because lawyers don't add to the economy? And don't lie and prentend you weren't having a dig at what i do for a living. How many children have you returned from abroad after they have been abducted? By the way, export earnings from legal services have grown by an average of 5.6% a year over the last decade and now amount to £3.6bn annually. Seems that you know very, very little about what you are talking about. The legal sector brings huge amounts of money to the UK. It is of huge benefit to our economy that London remains the legal capital of the world (it won't be after Brexit for obvious reasons). Touched a nerve here haven't I! What you sell is called a distressed purchase. I might want to buy a rose plant to brighten up the garden, or a can of paint to change the colour of my lounge, my prerogative. If I want to get divorced, insure my house, get a tooth filled I'm pretty much in the hands of an expert, I have no option=distressed purchase. The only thing that differentiates suppliers in those markets is price and perceived benefits. It's not like Mercedes v Kia, there is no brand differentiation. Therefore, the word preyed I used above referred to the fact that yours are distressed purchases, people don't have a choice other than which firm to use. As for legal exports of £3.6bn great, all welcome, about half the turnover of my last employer. Nothing to get excited about. UK aerospace industry latest 2016 figures exported £27.7bn and you were happy to kill that to exonerate your anti Trump agenda. A post Brexit Britain without lawyers? Don't be ridiculous. We'd buy them in
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 27, 2018 11:48:18 GMT
Apologies for the sizeable post, but it ain't looking good, Brexiteers. Marysbeanflicker might just be right all along - he said it wouldn't happen. I think it probably will but in little more than name only. Incidentally what Rees-Mogg is shitting himself about too! If the Telegraph is right, eventually enough of the die hards will have literally died hard and everyone else will be so bored of it all, they'll just think fuck it may as well just carry on, just to put it all behind us. Meanwhile, re-defining the word boom as meaning worst performing, the insanity of the Daily Express continues lol
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Jan 27, 2018 13:16:21 GMT
So you want a brexit with no lawyers....with no rule of law, because lawyers don't add to the economy? And don't lie and prentend you weren't having a dig at what i do for a living. How many children have you returned from abroad after they have been abducted? By the way, export earnings from legal services have grown by an average of 5.6% a year over the last decade and now amount to £3.6bn annually. Seems that you know very, very little about what you are talking about. The legal sector brings huge amounts of money to the UK. It is of huge benefit to our economy that London remains the legal capital of the world (it won't be after Brexit for obvious reasons). Touched a nerve here haven't I! What you sell is called a distressed purchase. I might want to buy a rose plant to brighten up the garden, or a can of paint to change the colour of my lounge, my prerogative. If I want to get divorced, insure my house, get a tooth filled I'm pretty much in the hands of an expert, I have no option=distressed purchase. The only thing that differentiates suppliers in those markets is price and perceived benefits. It's not like Mercedes v Kia, there is no brand differentiation. Therefore, the word preyed I used above referred to the fact that yours are distressed purchases, people don't have a choice other than which firm to use. As for legal exports of £3.6bn great, all welcome, about half the turnover of my last employer. Nothing to get excited about. UK aerospace industry latest 2016 figures exported £27.7bn and you were happy to kill that to exonerate your anti Trump agenda. A post Brexit Britain without lawyers? Don't be ridiculous. We'd buy them in You can get divorced, make a will or sue someone without ever consulting a lawyer. So they don't come under distressed purchases. Buy in lawyers all pre-qualified in English and Welsh law post-Brexit....good luck with that. It is not good that trump tried to slap massive tarrifs on those imports. It shows he will be protectionist and do it elsewhere. Of course it is welcome news that it won't now be happening. Obviously the legal industry is much more than just its exports. Its worth 26billion a year (from old data) in London alone. It employs thousands and they all pay tax etc and spend money here. Everyone wants to litigate here even if you are a Norwegian Shipping company sueing an Indian port. Sadly that will over time shift away once we leave the EU and we will no longer have that benefit. Same with many other industries. We can stand alone very well I am sure, but part of the EU makes us punch way above our weight. We won't in future.
|
|
|
Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 27, 2018 14:10:10 GMT
Dunna worry chaps. There are some sensible lawyers, retired judges and constitutional experts with an informed message on Brexit. Lawyers for Britain
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Jan 27, 2018 15:40:44 GMT
Dunna worry chaps. There are some sensible lawyers, retired judges and constitutional experts with an informed message on Brexit. Lawyers for Britain Wow, there is some dynamite in there. On the single market: As a matter of law, it would of course be possible for the UK remain a member of the EEA as a non-EU Member State by agreement. Indeed, Austria, Finland and Sweden upon joining the EU migrated in the opposite direction (with everyone’s consent) from being non-EU EEA members to becoming EU members of the EEA Agreement, with consequent revisions to the text of the EEA Agreement. However, the consent required for the EEA Agreement to be revised so that the UK would remain an EEA member after exit from the EU would be that of the EU itself, plus the consent of each of the individual EU Member States in its own right, plus the consent of each of the non-EU EEA States (Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein), a total of 30 States. Each of these EU and non-EU EEA States would have to agree to the necessary treaty changes, and would also have to ratify those changes in accordance with its national constitutional requirements.
As is now notorious as a result of the problems with the Canada-EU free trade agreement, this would include for example the need for ratification by the Wallonia regional parliament in the case of Belgium.
So it's not just the other 27 member states but also non-EU EEA states PLUS any regional parliaments (Wallonia, Basques?) who all have to agree that we can retain single market status without the attached 4 freedoms. Ain't going to happen, 'hard' Brexit the only option.
|
|
|
Post by capto on Jan 27, 2018 17:01:14 GMT
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Jan 27, 2018 17:11:23 GMT
Thank you for your apology. Now here's the bit you couldn't stomach posting "Tariffs of 292% will not now be imposed on orders of C-Series planes by American carriers. Business Secretary Greg Clark said it was "excellent news for the dedicated workforce in Northern Ireland and supply chain across the UK, who have a great future ahead". At least these people add something to the economy rather than preying people in an unfortunate situation like you do. How is protecting children from abuse preying on people? What about helping people escape abusive relationships? Or getting money for people from a cheating spouse? Or helping someone out of an unhappy relationship? Or enabling same-sex couples to adopt be surrogate parents? Getting children time with an alienated parent? Do explain. What about returning abducted children from abroad to their parent? Who am I preying on then? Or are you speaking from a position of total and utter ignorance as to what a family lawyer does? Does your job include assisting migrant errrmmmm children into the UK ? were you involved in the Rochdale, Rotherham paedophile gang cases ?
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Jan 27, 2018 18:29:16 GMT
How is protecting children from abuse preying on people? What about helping people escape abusive relationships? Or getting money for people from a cheating spouse? Or helping someone out of an unhappy relationship? Or enabling same-sex couples to adopt be surrogate parents? Getting children time with an alienated parent? Do explain. What about returning abducted children from abroad to their parent? Who am I preying on then? Or are you speaking from a position of total and utter ignorance as to what a family lawyer does? Does your job include assisting migrant errrmmmm children into the UK ? were you involved in the Rochdale, Rotherham paedophile gang cases ? No, that would potentially be an immigration lawyer who helps people come here. One small part of my job is getting children back when they have been taken abroad without the permission of someone with parental responsibility for the child here. That's child abduction. Criminal lawyers would have been involved with the paedophile gang cases. I have been involved with some cases involving sexual assault but they tend to be in public law children cases and I don't do that anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 21:18:06 GMT
I don't think the not so well off or some of the working class feel as though it has been beneficial to them though, sure all the politicians told them they would be less well off, the same politicians who they feel have not served them or improved their lives. So some people may feel that if you're already poor then brexit can't make you poor, or the economic hit would be worth the price to get out of a club which you feel does not serve you're best interests. Thats probably true, but thats probably because they havent been made aware enough of the benefits of being in the EU and, more importantly, the single market for the last quarter of a century. In itself this may have created the very jobs they rely on. The UK benefited greater than most other EU countries from being in the single market, in terms of GDP. If this national success didnt trickle down to the poor, wouldnt that be the fault of our own national policies rather than the EU? The EU doesnt control where industry, business and jobs go, other than providing funds directly to poorer regions of the UK, something which they will no longer receive. So, you could argue that the EU has actually worked to provide for the poor. The fact that the poor voted overwhelmingly to leave is probably an indication of their ignorance over what the EU did in this regard, something our govt should take the blame for, although you do have to bear in mind that governments are desperate to keep our rightwing dominated press onside and that much of this press is owned by non-dom tax dodgers with a vested interest in Britain leaving the EU! The other argument made by the poorer areas is that immigration drives down wages. Yet any analysis of the vote reveals that poor, overwhelmingly white British areas with little or no immigration were way more likely to vote leave. I'm sorry but I can't agree with some of you're points there, some people in the UK do feel held back by the EU, fishermen mainly who lost a whole industry. But also company's who have left these shores for the continent by company buy outs such as Cadbury etc. Its not all the EU fault but also they've done nothing to stop or help. To call the poor ignorant is also not really justified, simply because they do not take you're view point certainly does not make them ignorant. They would have took stock of their personal situation and made a decision simply based on their own personal view point on what or how the EU has helped them or their own families. I think you and you're like minded fellows have little to worry about though, the EU has a tendency to get what they like despite what the general population desire as you have witnessed from the Netherlands and Ireland in the past. At the worst for you and you're like minded citizens you'll get a soft watered down EU exit with no real substance which nobody really voted for, we will still pay in to EU coffers and follow their rules. That will be the worst case scenario. Personally I can see a second referendum like Ireland and the Netherlands in the hope of turning the original vote over and full steam ahead for the EU project. With less power for the British obviously. A shame really as we could have made something of this.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 8:57:47 GMT
Big push for 16&17 yr olds getting the vote now
I’d say RIP Brexit, but thinking about it, it was pretty much terminated before birth
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 28, 2018 11:58:10 GMT
Woohoo, does that mean we're no longer shittest economy in the G7? What do you want then? What rate do you think we should be at? Where could we be per GDP in 5 years time if we don't Leave the EU? I'm all ears Einstein. You do realise that the UK is the World's 5th richest economy and if you're over 25 on the minimum wage, working 40 hours a week your salary puts you in the World's top 4% of earners. 6th actually, France has overtaken us. I'd quite like us not to be the shittest economy in the G7 when before voting to leave we were the best. Quite the coincidence. If your GDP growth goes up by 0.1% that's very welcome news. But if you're still bottom the table that's not really a cause for celebration! Bit like Swansea beating Liverpool the other night. Still bottom aren't they? I've no idea what GDP will be in five years, Todger, I've no crystal ball. I can only react to what's happened so far.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 28, 2018 12:19:02 GMT
Thats probably true, but thats probably because they havent been made aware enough of the benefits of being in the EU and, more importantly, the single market for the last quarter of a century. In itself this may have created the very jobs they rely on. The UK benefited greater than most other EU countries from being in the single market, in terms of GDP. If this national success didnt trickle down to the poor, wouldnt that be the fault of our own national policies rather than the EU? The EU doesnt control where industry, business and jobs go, other than providing funds directly to poorer regions of the UK, something which they will no longer receive. So, you could argue that the EU has actually worked to provide for the poor. The fact that the poor voted overwhelmingly to leave is probably an indication of their ignorance over what the EU did in this regard, something our govt should take the blame for, although you do have to bear in mind that governments are desperate to keep our rightwing dominated press onside and that much of this press is owned by non-dom tax dodgers with a vested interest in Britain leaving the EU! The other argument made by the poorer areas is that immigration drives down wages. Yet any analysis of the vote reveals that poor, overwhelmingly white British areas with little or no immigration were way more likely to vote leave. I'm sorry but I can't agree with some of you're points there, some people in the UK do feel held back by the EU, fishermen mainly who lost a whole industry. But also company's who have left these shores for the continent by company buy outs such as Cadbury etc. Its not all the EU fault but also they've done nothing to stop or help. To call the poor ignorant is also not really justified, simply because they do not take you're view point certainly does not make them ignorant. They would have took stock of their personal situation and made a decision simply based on their own personal view point on what or how the EU has helped them or their own families. I think you and you're like minded fellows have little to worry about though, the EU has a tendency to get what they like despite what the general population desire as you have witnessed from the Netherlands and Ireland in the past. At the worst for you and you're like minded citizens you'll get a soft watered down EU exit with no real substance which nobody really voted for, we will still pay in to EU coffers and follow their rules. That will be the worst case scenario. Personally I can see a second referendum like Ireland and the Netherlands in the hope of turning the original vote over and full steam ahead for the EU project. With less power for the British obviously. A shame really as we could have made something of this. There is absolutely no need to apologise for disagreeing especially when done in such a manner. Likewise I will respond with similar respect. Company buy outs and transfers abroad are not much to do with the EU, our own govt could step in there but chooses not to as a result free market economics are allowed to dictate and this is one of the outcomes. In fact, you could argue that the harmonisation of tax regimes across Europe, something which doesn't happen now but would under closer fiscal union would work to prevent this kind of thing. I didn't call the poor ignorant in the way I suspect you understood it. I said they were and are largely ignorant of what the EU has done to make their region less poor. For example I bet most Cornish poor people would struggle to know how much eu money has gone on roads, fishing and tourism in that county - answer, a lot, but again my point is this is our governments fault not the fault of the poor. Our govt, as I said, has to play a very hard balancing act between making this stuff obvious to those regions who benefit while not pissing off the rightwing anti EU press and losing their support. I'm not blaming the poor, I'm explaining why many of them chose to vote the way they did. I suspect the majority of them didn't give a shit about the EU one way or the other and knew little about what it actually did beyond daft stories about bent bananas! I remember the number one search topic in google after the vote was what is the EU. That says rather a lot about the degree of ignorance, not all of which will be due to the poor I should add. My suspicion is that most people at the lower end of the social scale just wanted to give the govt a shoeing, no more no less but were also heavily influenced by the immigration scare tactics of Farage and leave.eu You'll not be surprised to hear I disagree with your final point! I think if we stumble through this leaving in name only most leavers won't realise quite how lucky they've been.
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Jan 28, 2018 13:33:42 GMT
I'm sorry but I can't agree with some of you're points there, some people in the UK do feel held back by the EU, fishermen mainly who lost a whole industry. But also company's who have left these shores for the continent by company buy outs such as Cadbury etc. Its not all the EU fault but also they've done nothing to stop or help. To call the poor ignorant is also not really justified, simply because they do not take you're view point certainly does not make them ignorant. They would have took stock of their personal situation and made a decision simply based on their own personal view point on what or how the EU has helped them or their own families. I think you and you're like minded fellows have little to worry about though, the EU has a tendency to get what they like despite what the general population desire as you have witnessed from the Netherlands and Ireland in the past. At the worst for you and you're like minded citizens you'll get a soft watered down EU exit with no real substance which nobody really voted for, we will still pay in to EU coffers and follow their rules. That will be the worst case scenario. Personally I can see a second referendum like Ireland and the Netherlands in the hope of turning the original vote over and full steam ahead for the EU project. With less power for the British obviously. A shame really as we could have made something of this. There is absolutely no need to apologise for disagreeing especially when done in such a manner. Likewise I will respond with similar respect. Company buy outs and transfers abroad are not much to do with the EU, our own govt could step in there but chooses not to as a result free market economics are allowed to dictate and this is one of the outcomes. In fact, you could argue that the harmonisation of tax regimes across Europe, something which doesn't happen now but would under closer fiscal union would work to prevent this kind of thing. I didn't call the poor ignorant in the way I suspect you understood it. I said they were and are largely ignorant of what the EU has done to make their region less poor. For example I bet most Cornish poor people would struggle to know how much eu money has gone on roads, fishing and tourism in that county - answer, a lot, but again my point is this is our governments fault not the fault of the poor. Our govt, as I said, has to play a very hard balancing act between making this stuff obvious to those regions who benefit while not pissing off the rightwing anti EU press and losing their support. I'm not blaming the poor, I'm explaining why many of them chose to vote the way they did. I suspect the majority of them didn't give a shit about the EU one way or the other and knew little about what it actually did beyond daft stories about bent bananas! I remember the number one search topic in google after the vote was what is the EU. That says rather a lot about the degree of ignorance, not all of which will be due to the poor I should add. My suspicion is that most people at the lower end of the social scale just wanted to give the govt a shoeing, no more no less but were also heavily influenced by the immigration scare tactics of Farage and leave.eu You'll not be surprised to hear I disagree with your final point! I think if we stumble through this leaving in name only most leavers won't realise quite how lucky they've been. And that hits the nail on the head for me. I'm less concerned about what's gone on than what's coming down the track, despite Oggy's protestations it won't happen/won't matter. The European Army's on it's way with plenty of Eurocrat voices wanting closer union on all fronts. However you look at it there are two options. Take access to the single market and the 4 freedom's that go with it (and pay in) or dump the lot in a full on 'hard Brexit'. I can't see an in-between. Politicians are like limpets hanging on to power for as long as they can, and it'll be this that decides how things turn out, not the will of the people. May will string it along waiting to see which way to jump for her own skin, get it wrong and it's then Corbyn's call. He's going to have to pull the splinters out of his arse from sitting on the fence if that happens, as much as he doesn't want to.
|
|
|
Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 28, 2018 14:08:34 GMT
What do you want then? What rate do you think we should be at? Where could we be per GDP in 5 years time if we don't Leave the EU? I'm all ears Einstein. You do realise that the UK is the World's 5th richest economy and if you're over 25 on the minimum wage, working 40 hours a week your salary puts you in the World's top 4% of earners. 6th actually, France has overtaken us. I'd quite like us not to be the shittest economy in the G7 when before voting to leave we were the best. Quite the coincidence. If your GDP growth goes up by 0.1% that's very welcome news. But if you're still bottom the table that's not really a cause for celebration! Bit like Swansea beating Liverpool the other night. Still bottom aren't they? I've no idea what GDP will be in five years, Todger, I've no crystal ball. I can only react to what's happened so far. 5th or 9th depending on which measure you use. We're neck and neck with France so we chop and change. We headed economic growth in the G7 for years. There are peaks and troughs. One result won't take Swansea from the bottom to the top of the table but do you think they were happy to start with those 3 points? Your delight at taking petty swipes at the UK is pretty boring now.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 22:21:49 GMT
What do you want then? What rate do you think we should be at? Where could we be per GDP in 5 years time if we don't Leave the EU? I'm all ears Einstein. You do realise that the UK is the World's 5th richest economy and if you're over 25 on the minimum wage, working 40 hours a week your salary puts you in the World's top 4% of earners. 6th actually, France has overtaken us. I'd quite like us not to be the shittest economy in the G7 when before voting to leave we were the best. Quite the coincidence. If your GDP growth goes up by 0.1% that's very welcome news. But if you're still bottom the table that's not really a cause for celebration! Bit like Swansea beating Liverpool the other night. Still bottom aren't they? I've no idea what GDP will be in five years, Todger, I've no crystal ball. I can only react to what's happened so far. Completely fair valid points I can't argue, but on the other hand if you can take the time to realise that maybe people just thought, enough is enough. I'm fed up with the establishment, should that be in Westminster or Brussels. Maybe I want a complete change and shake the whole system up, maybe that way those at the top will finally recognise my concerns. I'm not talking of a Conservative, Labour, Brussels failure because in all honesty they have all failed. There is the issue, you're national parties promise so much but deliver very little, and not just here but globally hence the rise of trump, the national front in France, brexit it self and any other national promotional parties. Why? Because they offer hope, something different. If it weren't for the short comings, the scandals, the need to feel unheard these parties would not have a place to turn. The fact that they are now real contenders and pulling great numbers through the ballot box is and should be a wake up call to those at the top that they have done something fundamentally wrong. People have just and general concern about their national identity, their jobs, their communities, the direction their community and nation is heading. They can look back nostalgically and come to the conclusion that what we've become and are ever changing to is not what they asked for neither is it what they wanted. This is when they are now labelled racist or little englander which is totally unfair and wrong, they have genuine concerns, mistrust, or simply disillusionment with the status quo. To defy brexit as simply an option of pro or anti EU is complete nonsense. There are so many factors to take account for its unbelievable. So many factors come in to play when voting for leave or remain, its not a simple option of well we'll be better of financially. Financially the working class will still be working class, if you struggle now and vote for the status quo you'll still struggle. It's so simple. People voted for change in hope of a shake up and hopefully something better than they have. I voted out and to me out means out, no restrictions no guidelines set by Brussels, I want a fully accountable Westminster to take the lead. To take this country forward. To be brave, imaginative, bold and make this country and its people better of and proud to be British. Not an island nation who is bossed about by unelected burocrocratts from Brussels with no vested interest in the UK, or by Germany and France.
|
|
|
Post by spitthedog on Jan 28, 2018 22:43:45 GMT
6th actually, France has overtaken us. I'd quite like us not to be the shittest economy in the G7 when before voting to leave we were the best. Quite the coincidence. If your GDP growth goes up by 0.1% that's very welcome news. But if you're still bottom the table that's not really a cause for celebration! Bit like Swansea beating Liverpool the other night. Still bottom aren't they? I've no idea what GDP will be in five years, Todger, I've no crystal ball. I can only react to what's happened so far. Completely fair valid points I can't argue, but on the other hand if you can take the time to realise that maybe people just thought, enough is enough. I'm fed up with the establishment, should that be in Westminster or Brussels. Maybe I want a complete change and shake the whole system up, maybe that way those at the top will finally recognise my concerns. I'm not talking of a Conservative, Labour, Brussels failure because in all honesty they have all failed. There is the issue, you're national parties promise so much but deliver very little, and not just here but globally hence the rise of trump, the national front in France, brexit it self and any other national promotional parties. Why? Because they offer hope, something different. If it weren't for the short comings, the scandals, the need to feel unheard these parties would not have a place to turn. The fact that they are now real contenders and pulling great numbers through the ballot box is and should be a wake up call to those at the top that they have done something fundamentally wrong. People have just and general concern about their national identity, their jobs, their communities, the direction their community and nation is heading. They can look back nostalgically and come to the conclusion that what we've become and are ever changing to is not what they asked for neither is it what they wanted. This is when they are now labelled racist or little englander which is totally unfair and wrong, they have genuine concerns, mistrust, or simply disillusionment with the status quo. To defy brexit as simply an option of pro or anti EU is complete nonsense. There are so many factors to take account for its unbelievable. So many factors come in to play when voting for leave or remain, its not a simple option of well we'll be better of financially. Financially the working class will still be working class, if you struggle now and vote for the status quo you'll still struggle. It's so simple. People voted for change in hope of a shake up and hopefully something better than they have. I voted out and to me out means out, no restrictions no guidelines set by Brussels, I want a fully accountable Westminster to take the lead. To take this country forward. To be brave, imaginative, bold and make this country and its people better of and proud to be British. Not an island nation who is bossed about by unelected burocrocratts from Brussels with no vested interest in the UK, or by Germany and France. So people voted because they wanted to reject the establishment and were fed up of unelected bureaucrats so what happens next???... Its the establishment who are cashing in on it and most befitting from it.......and it's the people 'we' elected who are cashing in on it and most benefitting from it??? Same as it ever was!!! In or Out ....makes no difference mate. Brexit....another money making racket for the establishment and the rest to fight over the crumbs www.theguardian.com/media/2018/jan/24/c4-to-broadcast-claim-ex-ministers-offered-brexit-help-to-chinese
|
|
|
Post by essexstokey on Jan 28, 2018 22:48:19 GMT
There is absolutely no need to apologise for disagreeing especially when done in such a manner. Likewise I will respond with similar respect. Company buy outs and transfers abroad are not much to do with the EU, our own govt could step in there but chooses not to as a result free market economics are allowed to dictate and this is one of the outcomes. In fact, you could argue that the harmonisation of tax regimes across Europe, something which doesn't happen now but would under closer fiscal union would work to prevent this kind of thing. I didn't call the poor ignorant in the way I suspect you understood it. I said they were and are largely ignorant of what the EU has done to make their region less poor. For example I bet most Cornish poor people would struggle to know how much eu money has gone on roads, fishing and tourism in that county - answer, a lot, but again my point is this is our governments fault not the fault of the poor. Our govt, as I said, has to play a very hard balancing act between making this stuff obvious to those regions who benefit while not pissing off the rightwing anti EU press and losing their support. I'm not blaming the poor, I'm explaining why many of them chose to vote the way they did. I suspect the majority of them didn't give a shit about the EU one way or the other and knew little about what it actually did beyond daft stories about bent bananas! I remember the number one search topic in google after the vote was what is the EU. That says rather a lot about the degree of ignorance, not all of which will be due to the poor I should add. My suspicion is that most people at the lower end of the social scale just wanted to give the govt a shoeing, no more no less but were also heavily influenced by the immigration scare tactics of Farage and leave.eu You'll not be surprised to hear I disagree with your final point! I think if we stumble through this leaving in name only most leavers won't realise quite how lucky they've been. And that hits the nail on the head for me. I'm less concerned about what's gone on than what's coming down the track, despite Oggy's protestations it won't happen/won't matter. The European Army's on it's way with plenty of Eurocrat voices wanting closer union on all fronts. However you look at it there are two options. Take access to the single market and the 4 freedom's that go with it (and pay in) or dump the lot in a full on 'hard Brexit'. I can't see an in-between. Politicians are like limpets hanging on to power for as long as they can, and it'll be this that decides how things turn out, not the will of the people. May will string it along waiting to see which way to jump for her own skin, get it wrong and it's then Corbyn's call. He's going to have to pull the splinters out of his arse from sitting on the fence if that happens, as much as he doesn't want to. The thing is we had a thing called a veto to stop these things going ahead and influence while inside the eu as soon as we leave we have no say in what go's on and cant stop it happening
|
|