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Post by kevkj on Nov 21, 2016 10:32:58 GMT
I know stats are not everything but our covered distance for the team was massively down at 66 KM on Saturday ,considering Joe Allan was in the top ten players then there seems to be a few slackers, we were way down at the bottom of the league AGAIN on Saturday for ground covered and I think it showed.
Bony,Adam,Bojan and Shaq the main culprits I would have thought.
It really isn't good enough when most teams are running a extra 4-5 Km collectively and some up to 7km more..
"Vis Unita Fortior"
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 21, 2016 10:38:13 GMT
Charlie did 0.001 KM Bony did 0.002 KM (he had to come back further for corners didn't he  ) |
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Nov 21, 2016 10:49:39 GMT
I reckon the running stats from sat mean v. little.
There couldn't have been much more than an hour of nogger.
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Post by alster on Nov 21, 2016 10:53:09 GMT
Charlie did 0.001 KM Bony did 0.002 KM (he had to come back further for corners didn't he ) Neither player has a great deal of running in their legs. Its the makeup of the squad thats to blame not the individual players. I always thought it was a strange leap from one target to the other but if you're looking for mobility in your forward line why on earth would you go for Bony? Similarly Charlie has his merits not that he showed us many glimpses of them on Saturday but he's never been a player with any pace or mobility. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Nov 21, 2016 10:54:27 GMT
The fitness levels are not what they need to be but ANOTHER reason I've been thinking about is how rigid our system has become.
The 2 holding DM's rarely get into the opposition final third
The inverted wingers are stuck on their wing and hardly ever switch or drift into the middle
The striker is just left as a target man in the middle. No dropping deeper with the number 10 going beyond him
Centre-backs never bringing the ball out from the back
The only players who are expected to get up and down are the full-backs on the overlap. Only Glen Johnson can do this job properly.
We are so rigid and easy to mark and defend against. Bournemouth showed way more movement off the ball with players interchanging at will.
Slow and ponderous is how I would describe us under Hughes in general. Its fine when some individual skill can win us games, but the "system" he uses has become a bit out of date in Premiership standards
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 21, 2016 10:58:19 GMT
I think stats are a useful tool but it is easy to get carried away with them and start to invent theories to suit the numbers.
I think a stat like number of shots on target or number of corners does tell a relevant fact.
A stat like passing accuracy is less telling as what is the value of lots of sideways and backward passing apart from keeping the ball from the opposition?
A stat like number of miles covered leaves me cold and thinking so what; some would say let the ball do the work and in Bony/Bojan/Shaq/Arni we do have those type of players.
Before someone says it: "there is only 1 important stat............"
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Post by oslostokie1 on Nov 21, 2016 11:13:36 GMT
I know stats are not everything but our covered distance for the team was massively down at 66 KM on Saturday ,considering Joe Allan was in the top ten players then there seems to be a few slackers, we were way down at the bottom of the league AGAIN on Saturday for ground covered and I think it showed. Bony,Adam,Bojan and Shaq the main culprits I would have thought. It really isn't good enough when most teams are running a extra 4-5 Km collectively and some up to 7km more.. "Vis Unita Fortior" The Prem league is as much about fitness as ability particularly with the high-pressing game that we see from the Liverpool's, etc, being so successful. As opposed to Man U, who would have better technical players in Ibrahimovic and Rooney et al, but lack the mobility and hence less successful (currently). With Bony, Shaq, Bojan and Adam, we have four of the least mobile players in the whole Prem which weighs hard when they are not demonstrating their apparent technical superiority. Joe Allen is not a particularly technical player but his attitude and stamina, instilled from his Liverpool days, means that we all now believe him to be a world-beater, the first name on our teamsheet every week. A year ago, would any of us have suggested that Allen would be a better all-round player for Stoke than Bojan or Shaq? We need a mix of technical players in the forward areas on the pitch together with the grafters defensively which worked well for us when we had Cameron and Whelan available to fulfill the latter role. Yes, we might want upgrades on those two but they are the best we have at the moment to give us the right blend so must be reinstated as soon as they are available. Bojan, Shaq, Bony and Adam are a couple of luxury players too far. |
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Post by alster on Nov 21, 2016 11:30:13 GMT
I know stats are not everything but our covered distance for the team was massively down at 66 KM on Saturday ,considering Joe Allan was in the top ten players then there seems to be a few slackers, we were way down at the bottom of the league AGAIN on Saturday for ground covered and I think it showed. Bony,Adam,Bojan and Shaq the main culprits I would have thought. It really isn't good enough when most teams are running a extra 4-5 Km collectively and some up to 7km more.. "Vis Unita Fortior" The Prem league is as much about fitness as ability particularly with the high-pressing game that we see from the Liverpool's, etc, being so successful. As opposed to Man U, who would have better technical players in Ibrahimovic and Rooney et al, but lack the mobility and hence less successful (currently). With Bony, Shaq, Bojan and Adam, we have four of the least mobile players in the whole Prem which weighs hard when they are not demonstrating their apparent technical superiority. Joe Allen is not a particularly technical player but his attitude and stamina, instilled from his Liverpool days, means that we all now believe him to be a world-beater, the first name on our teamsheet every week. A year ago, would any of us have suggested that Allen would be a better all-round player for Stoke than Bojan or Shaq? We need a mix of technical players in the forward areas on the pitch together with the grafters defensively which worked well for us when we had Cameron and Whelan available to fulfill the latter role. Yes, we might want upgrades on those two but they are the best we have at the moment to give us the right blend so must be reinstated as soon as they are available. Bojan, Shaq, Bony and Adam are a couple of luxury players too far. I think you're right about the blend its just not right at the moment. We need more industry and physical presence. Adam and Bony's mobility is so slow you almost need a time lapse camera. What mobility Bojan has is of no effect, he's just far too lightweight in this league of physical specimens. Not sure why Shaq is included his mobility is good, he might not always track back as much as you'd like but there is no inbuilt mobility issue. The answers don't lie within the squad so its going to be a matter of making the best of a bad situation until we have a chance to rectify it. If we're not at the very least linked to the right type of players this coming window I will have lost all faith in the squad building abilities of those responsible for recruitment. |
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Post by oslostokie1 on Nov 21, 2016 12:14:02 GMT
The Prem league is as much about fitness as ability particularly with the high-pressing game that we see from the Liverpool's, etc, being so successful. As opposed to Man U, who would have better technical players in Ibrahimovic and Rooney et al, but lack the mobility and hence less successful (currently). With Bony, Shaq, Bojan and Adam, we have four of the least mobile players in the whole Prem which weighs hard when they are not demonstrating their apparent technical superiority. Joe Allen is not a particularly technical player but his attitude and stamina, instilled from his Liverpool days, means that we all now believe him to be a world-beater, the first name on our teamsheet every week. A year ago, would any of us have suggested that Allen would be a better all-round player for Stoke than Bojan or Shaq? We need a mix of technical players in the forward areas on the pitch together with the grafters defensively which worked well for us when we had Cameron and Whelan available to fulfill the latter role. Yes, we might want upgrades on those two but they are the best we have at the moment to give us the right blend so must be reinstated as soon as they are available. Bojan, Shaq, Bony and Adam are a couple of luxury players too far. I think you're right about the blend its just not right at the moment. We need more industry and physical presence. Adam and Bony's mobility is so slow you almost need a time lapse camera. What mobility Bojan has is of no effect, he's just far too lightweight in this league of physical specimens. Not sure why Shaq is included his mobility is good, he might not always track back as much as you'd like but there is no inbuilt mobility issue. The answers don't lie within the squad so its going to be a matter of making the best of a bad situation until we have a chance to rectify it. If we're not at the very least linked to the right type of players this coming window I will have lost all faith in the squad building abilities of those responsible for recruitment. I have not checked but it does not seem to me that Shaq puts in the "hard miles". He offers very little defensively and neither goes on many lung-busting runs down the wing, preferring to cut inside all the time looking for some clever through ball or cross. I said before the start of the game on Saturday that I doubt that we had a more talented front four in the forty years I have been watching Stoke, yet that counts for very little if you don't match that ability with attitude and stamina. |
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Post by alster on Nov 21, 2016 12:24:48 GMT
I think you're right about the blend its just not right at the moment. We need more industry and physical presence. Adam and Bony's mobility is so slow you almost need a time lapse camera. What mobility Bojan has is of no effect, he's just far too lightweight in this league of physical specimens. Not sure why Shaq is included his mobility is good, he might not always track back as much as you'd like but there is no inbuilt mobility issue. The answers don't lie within the squad so its going to be a matter of making the best of a bad situation until we have a chance to rectify it. If we're not at the very least linked to the right type of players this coming window I will have lost all faith in the squad building abilities of those responsible for recruitment. I have not checked but it does not seem to me that Shaq puts in the "hard miles". He offers very little defensively and neither goes on many lung-busting runs down the wing, preferring to cut inside all the time looking for some clever through ball or cross. I said before the start of the game on Saturday that I doubt that we had a more talented front four in the forty years I have been watching Stoke, yet that counts for very little if you don't match that ability with attitude and stamina. Yes I think we need our Premier League version of Salif Diao, I don't think we need the next Glenn Whelan because even at his best he did not have the physical presence to command the centre of the pitch which leads to needing a Steven N'Zonzi or a Geoff Cameron alongside him ( honestly can't believe I just compared those two players, its made me feel sick). I'm going to leave it at that now that thought has just totally upset my brain. |
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Post by johnnypotter on Nov 21, 2016 20:14:43 GMT
Good post Kevkj. Whilst i'm more than pleased with three 9th finishes in a row, it still seems we are causing ourselves problems, stemming back to pre-season. I feel we don't do the hard work in the summer and spend half the season playing catch-up [fitness wise] and picking up regular muscle based injuries, is that purely a coincidence.
But, in terms of final placing, it seems like the ends justify the means, but it just niggles me that we could do more, if we were at full fitness from the off in August.
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Post by jezzascfc on Nov 21, 2016 20:22:22 GMT
Our central midfield needs more athletic, mobile players for sure - we look better defensively with Geoff in there and Allen pushing on in support of the lone forward links midfield to attack, so the forward is not isolated, and also starts our pressing from higher up the pitch. Replace Whelan with a beast of a DM and we would see a big improvement. For all Charlie's talent on the ball, he simply isn't as athletic as a modern central midfield needs to be.
What Saturday showed us is we need to have Whelan, Cameron and Allen as our middle three, when all are fit and free of suspension. I would love Gilbert to develop a bit of game knowledge, defensive awareness and footballing nous, as he could be that beast. Will or can he though?
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Nov 21, 2016 20:44:38 GMT
The fitness levels are not what they need to be but ANOTHER reason I've been thinking about is how rigid our system has become. The 2 holding DM's rarely get into the opposition final third The inverted wingers are stuck on their wing and hardly ever switch or drift into the middle The striker is just left as a target man in the middle. No dropping deeper with the number 10 going beyond him Centre-backs never bringing the ball out from the back The only players who are expected to get up and down are the full-backs on the overlap. Only Glen Johnson can do this job properly. We are so rigid and easy to mark and defend against. Bournemouth showed way more movement off the ball with players interchanging at will. Slow and ponderous is how I would describe us under Hughes in general. Its fine when some individual skill can win us games, but the "system" he uses has become a bit out of date in Premiership standards Sums up how I am feeling. Especially at home time and time again we are being shown up and tactically out-thought.
Also, there is such an obvious lack of pace and balance in the team.
It isn't very enjoyable to watch at the moment.
Massive relief is what I felt during our 6 game run but we have started so badly we are still on the edge of the relegation spots.
I just feel so totally unconvinced. Performances like that on Saturday are the issue. I don't mind defeats but when we lose we just look so bad. We got totally outplayed during that first half.
As an established premier league club, with a manager who is backed to the hilt by the board, we should be better than this.
And I don't even want to start ranting about moving our most in form player out of position, bringing on Crouch and Walters, Walters missing another easy chance, and our 'wingers' cutting inside all the time and continually either passing backwards or losing the ball.
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Post by hchpotter on Nov 21, 2016 21:09:48 GMT
Anyone got the stats for KM covered by their physio?
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Nov 21, 2016 23:35:49 GMT
Our central midfield needs more athletic, mobile players for sure - we look better defensively with Geoff in there and Allen pushing on in support of the lone forward links midfield to attack, so the forward is not isolated, and also starts our pressing from higher up the pitch. Replace Whelan with a beast of a DM and we would see a big improvement. For all Charlie's talent on the ball, he simply isn't as athletic as a modern central midfield needs to be. What Saturday showed us is we need to have Whelan, Cameron and Allen as our middle three, when all are fit and free of suspension. I would love Gilbert to develop a bit of game knowledge, defensive awareness and footballing nous, as he could be that beast. Will or can he though? From the off Gilbert Imbula Wanga was never a 'beast'. That was and is fantasy/wish fulfilment island. A very nifty transitionary box to boxer, run with it Forest. Turbo Zonzi. If it works out. |
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Post by roylandstoke on Nov 21, 2016 23:49:28 GMT
Anyone got the stats for KM covered by their physio? 2 km further than Bony. |
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Post by kustokie on Nov 22, 2016 0:32:06 GMT
I think you're right about the blend its just not right at the moment. We need more industry and physical presence. Adam and Bony's mobility is so slow you almost need a time lapse camera. What mobility Bojan has is of no effect, he's just far too lightweight in this league of physical specimens. Not sure why Shaq is included his mobility is good, he might not always track back as much as you'd like but there is no inbuilt mobility issue. The answers don't lie within the squad so its going to be a matter of making the best of a bad situation until we have a chance to rectify it. If we're not at the very least linked to the right type of players this coming window I will have lost all faith in the squad building abilities of those responsible for recruitment. I have not checked but it does not seem to me that Shaq puts in the "hard miles". He offers very little defensively and neither goes on many lung-busting runs down the wing, preferring to cut inside all the time looking for some clever through ball or cross. I said before the start of the game on Saturday that I doubt that we had a more talented front four in the forty years I have been watching Stoke, yet that counts for very little if you don't match that ability with attitude and stamina. Shaq is wasted on the wing because he either can't or won't get to the byline and cross the ball for others. He's only intetersted in cutting inside and scoring, which would be fine if he did cut 15 or 20 times a season but he doesn't. He's never been anywhere near double figures. |
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