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Post by stokecitydom on Aug 27, 2016 17:40:49 GMT
What kind of football are we trying to play? Are we a possession team, are we a counter attacking team or are we long ball? It seems to chop & change randomly.
Its vital that we find an identity. Work out what we are & what we want to be and then build on it.
We seem to go from 4231 to 433 (false nine) to 433 with a target man. The team selection is not settled & nobody (except Arnautovic) gets a continued run of games playing together. Joselu, Diouf, Walters & Crouch have all come in & been given 1-2 games, then they are out. Bojan is the same, give him a run of 5+ games to get some kind of consistency and form.
We have to settle on a formation & a consistent line up in order to get some fluidity & understanding on the pitch.
Hughes has to make a decision on his best team, as it seems like there are numerous positions where he still cannot decide who should play. Whether it be upfront, or at the back.
Obviously you mix it up against certain opposition & don't want to be too predictable. But lets have a clear idea of what we are trying to achieve.
Before the window shuts I'd sign 2 new strikers (like Bony & Berahino who offer something different from each other). A solid centre half & a left back who offers something going forward.
Maybe I'm wrong, I just don't really know what the plan is at the minute.
I do believe we will be fine though & be relatively comfortable in the league, as we have had some tricky fixtures.
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Post by larrypotter on Aug 27, 2016 19:35:00 GMT
It would be a good start to stop playing Diouf out wide.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Aug 27, 2016 19:43:06 GMT
I loved the 4231 when Odom was hear a couple of seasons ago. He really suited that wide striker role.
I like that formation but the problem is our 2 most expensive signings don't fit in it hence all the messing about dovetailing them into the side. Shaq could play in the middle where Bojan was but he isn't no wide forward. From what I've seen of Berahino he could play in the Odom role.
IF we play 4231 we need to sign
1 x CB
1 x LB
1 x Whelan upgrade
1 x forward
1 x winger
Or at least a minimum CB, winger, forward.
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 27, 2016 19:55:18 GMT
Spot on.
With the number of midfielders we've got, at face value it makes sense to try and play a 4-3-3 with Whelan as the holding man and two from Imbula, Allen, Adam and Afellay (when fit) pushing on. Why we've signed so many of those type of midfielders and yet only have Whelan as a DM is another issue, but bear with me...
Anyway, playing the 4-3-3 might give us more spots to fit in all these midfielders but it leaves us with a problem: Bojan. Actually, it leaves us with two: Bojan and Crouch.
Crouch can't play as the striker in this system- he needs someone with him to profit from the knock downs. Bojan played one great game as a false 9 (against Man City) and then looked lost every time we tried it afterwards.
And where does Diouf fit in? He can't control the ball well enough to play as the lone front man either, so it all comes down to the problem we've had for years- we haven't got the line-leading striker who is big, quick, strong AND skillful. We haven't got a Lukaku, a Bony or even a Benteke...and I'm not sure a Berahino is really the answer.
So, alternatively we need to play 4-2-3-1 and build the system around Bojan playing in the hole behind one of the aforementioned strikers we do have or a new signing. Now though, assuming Whelan has to take one of the midfield spots to guarantee some defensive cover in a midfield pairing...that leaves 4 big players (Imbula, Allen, Adam and Afellay) all fighting over one spot.
A ridiculous situation, but Hughes has got to bite the bullet, choose what he wants to do and then stick with it, being ruthless if he has to be. At the moment we're neither one thing nor the other.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 27, 2016 20:26:02 GMT
I haven't got a clue what Hughes is trying to do.
Fact of the matter is, that if we'd already signed Berahino, then he would have lead the line for us today but we actually went with Peter Crouch?.
Two completely different types of strikers requiring completely different types of tactics for all your players all over the pitch.
Why he's signed Imbula and Allen when they both play in exactly the same position, I have no idea.
It all seems very, very muddled thinking at the minute.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 27, 2016 20:29:16 GMT
Spot on. With the number of midfielders we've got, at face value it makes sense to try and play a 4-3-3 with Whelan as the holding man and two from Imbula, Allen, Adam and Afellay (when fit) pushing on. Why we've signed so many of those type of midfielders and yet only have Whelan as a DM is another issue, but bear with me... Anyway, playing the 4-3-3 might give us more spots to fit in all these midfielders but it leaves us with a problem: Bojan. Actually, it leaves us with two: Bojan and Crouch. Crouch can't play as the striker in this system- he needs someone with him to profit from the knock downs. Bojan played one great game as a false 9 (against Man City) and then looked lost every time we tried it afterwards. And where does Diouf fit in? He can't control the ball well enough to play as the lone front man either, so it all comes down to the problem we've had for years- we haven't got the line-leading striker who is big, quick, strong AND skillful. We haven't got a Lukaku, a Bony or even a Benteke...and I'm not sure a Berahino is really the answer. So, alternatively we need to play 4-2-3-1 and build the system around Bojan playing in the hole behind one of the aforementioned strikers we do have or a new signing. Now though, assuming Whelan has to take one of the midfield spots to guarantee some defensive cover in a midfield pairing...that leaves 4 big players (Imbula, Allen, Adam and Afellay) all fighting over one spot. A ridiculous situation, but Hughes has got to bite the bullet, choose what he wants to do and then stick with it, being ruthless if he has to be. At the moment we're neither one thing nor the other. Excellent analysis Trousers. I agree with every word of that. |
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Post by FullerMagic on Aug 27, 2016 20:34:12 GMT
As Trousers forensically details, it is all starting to look like an ill thought-out hodgepodge. It's hard to have any kind of sense about what the big idea is.
There've clearly been 2 or 3 players who have not been at all what he was expecting once he got them in the building.
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Post by no1972 on Aug 27, 2016 20:35:00 GMT
He does not no himself,a good manager makes a plan and sticks by it,we change our team formation nearly every week the players look confused,the manager seems to of lost the plot.I know the game against Stevenage was against lesser oppersition.But with Charlie in the team we had someone on the pitch who could dictate the play and be a leader.What has he done wrong except not costing 18million and doesn't wear gloves.
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Post by liamo on Aug 27, 2016 20:47:49 GMT
He's like a mad scientist sometimes, genius on their day but bonkers nevertheless
For me it has to be simple, Allen and Imbula should not play together, one should not be pushed in to Bojan's position to accommodate the other
If Shaq is out injured we play a wide man in his place, stop fucking about with the formation every other match, i'm not an expert but there's no way it's as complicated as Hughes is making it seem, Crouchy did well against Stevenage but if you're playing a 35yr old giant in a game where we'd typically set up to counter then we've got personel problems
Get a couple of players in, get the window shut and stop fucking about and overcomplicating tactics by playing players out of position
The next time we kick off I want this:
--------------Butland--------------------
Johnson---Shawcross-NEW CB----Pieters
----------Allen----Whelan-----------
--Shaq---------Bojan-------Arnie
-------------NEW STRIKER-------------------
And for christs sake if any of them get injured REPLACE LIKE FOR LIKE
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Post by no1972 on Aug 27, 2016 20:59:22 GMT
He's like a mad scientist sometimes, genius on their day but bonkers nevertheless For me it has to be simple, Allen and Imbula should not play together, one should not be pushed in to Bojan's position to accommodate the other If Shaq is out injured we play a wide man in his place, stop fucking about with the formation every other match, i'm not an expert but there's no way it's as complicated as Hughes is making it seem, Crouchy did well against Stevenage but if you're playing a 35yr old giant in a game where we'd typically set up to counter then we've got personel problems Get a couple of players in, get the window shut and stop fucking about and overcomplicating tactics by playing players out of position The next time we kick off I want this: --------------Butland-------------------- Johnson---Shawcross-NEW CB----Pieters ----------Allen----Whelan----------- --Shaq---------Bojan-------Arnie -------------NEW STRIKER------------------- And for christs sake if any of them get injured REPLACE LIKE FOR LIKE Like the set up but I would like a out and out winger with pace. |
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Post by hchpotter on Aug 27, 2016 21:00:56 GMT
He's like a mad scientist sometimes, genius on their day but bonkers nevertheless For me it has to be simple, Allen and Imbula should not play together, one should not be pushed in to Bojan's position to accommodate the other If Shaq is out injured we play a wide man in his place, stop fucking about with the formation every other match, i'm not an expert but there's no way it's as complicated as Hughes is making it seem, Crouchy did well against Stevenage but if you're playing a 35yr old giant in a game where we'd typically set up to counter then we've got personel problems Get a couple of players in, get the window shut and stop fucking about and overcomplicating tactics by playing players out of position The next time we kick off I want this: --------------Butland-------------------- Johnson---Shawcross-NEW CB----Pieters ----------Allen----Whelan----------- --Shaq---------Bojan-------Arnie -------------NEW STRIKER------------------- [/quote. ] That's pretty much what I'd like to see but it says a lot about recent transfers that there's no place for Imbula, Joselu, Diouf, Muniesa, Wollscheid. And the Holy Trinity have yet to add up to the sum of their parts. Hughes cannot afford to spend badly on new CB and new striker. |
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Post by fentonstokie1 on Aug 27, 2016 21:07:05 GMT
Spot on. With the number of midfielders we've got, at face value it makes sense to try and play a 4-3-3 with Whelan as the holding man and two from Imbula, Allen, Adam and Afellay (when fit) pushing on. Why we've signed so many of those type of midfielders and yet only have Whelan as a DM is another issue, but bear with me... Anyway, playing the 4-3-3 might give us more spots to fit in all these midfielders but it leaves us with a problem: Bojan. Actually, it leaves us with two: Bojan and Crouch. Crouch can't play as the striker in this system- he needs someone with him to profit from the knock downs. Bojan played one great game as a false 9 (against Man City) and then looked lost every time we tried it afterwards. And where does Diouf fit in? He can't control the ball well enough to play as the lone front man either, so it all comes down to the problem we've had for years- we haven't got the line-leading striker who is big, quick, strong AND skillful. We haven't got a Lukaku, a Bony or even a Benteke...and I'm not sure a Berahino is really the answer. So, alternatively we need to play 4-2-3-1 and build the system around Bojan playing in the hole behind one of the aforementioned strikers we do have or a new signing. Now though, assuming Whelan has to take one of the midfield spots to guarantee some defensive cover in a midfield pairing...that leaves 4 big players (Imbula, Allen, Adam and Afellay) all fighting over one spot. A ridiculous situation, but Hughes has got to bite the bullet, choose what he wants to do and then stick with it, being ruthless if he has to be. At the moment we're neither one thing nor the other. Excellent analysis Trousers. I agree with every word of that. Our scoring problem is not purely down to formation, our build up play is too slow giving time for the opposition to set themselves, we rarely run into the box at pace with the ball and persist in crossing the ball into the box regardless of the presence of Stoke players and worst of all we are so slow at getting a shot away and on target. cWhat the hell do we do in practice??? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 21:11:23 GMT
I haven't got a clue what Hughes is trying to do. Fact of the matter is, that if we'd already signed Berahino, then he would have lead the line for us today but we actually went with Peter Crouch?. Two completely types of strikers requiring completely different types of tactics for all your players all over the pitch. Why he's signed Imbula and Allen when they both play in exactly the same position, I have no idea. It all seems very, very muddled thinking at the minute. It all smacks of desperation to me and that is the most worrying part. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 27, 2016 21:14:00 GMT
I think you are all over complicating things.
For me its simple. Our so called best and most creative players aren't playing well. They aren't taking enough responsibility for making things happen. They are playing too safe.
Whether they aren't playing well because they are out of form or simply because, in truth, they are rubbish, is what we should be discussing.
My view is that they are rubbish and nowhere near good enough to produce the goods consistently.
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Post by liamo on Aug 27, 2016 21:16:43 GMT
He's like a mad scientist sometimes, genius on their day but bonkers nevertheless For me it has to be simple, Allen and Imbula should not play together, one should not be pushed in to Bojan's position to accommodate the other If Shaq is out injured we play a wide man in his place, stop fucking about with the formation every other match, i'm not an expert but there's no way it's as complicated as Hughes is making it seem, Crouchy did well against Stevenage but if you're playing a 35yr old giant in a game where we'd typically set up to counter then we've got personel problems Get a couple of players in, get the window shut and stop fucking about and overcomplicating tactics by playing players out of position The next time we kick off I want this: --------------Butland-------------------- Johnson---Shawcross-NEW CB----Pieters ----------Allen----Whelan----------- --Shaq---------Bojan-------Arnie -------------NEW STRIKER------------------- [/quote. ] That's pretty much what I'd like to see but it says a lot about recent transfers that there's no place for Imbula, Joselu, Diouf, Muniesa, Wollscheid. And the Holy Trinity have yet to add up to the sum of their parts. Hughes cannot afford to spend badly on new CB and new striker. It puts us in an awkward position because we're either going to end up with £18m imbula on the bench or £13m Joe Allen and based on what we've seen so far Allen HAS to start because he's been everywhere for us, his passion level for the game is way up over 100%, the other players you mentioned are perfectly fine for the bench or a run due to injury but it baffles me why we've spent £31m on 2 players that fill the exact same hole in the team, I like Imbula but we just can't play a box to box that refuses to get back and put the mileage in I do agree, we can't afford to get the next few days wrong, a CB and striker that can go straight in to the team is the very least we should be happy with |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 27, 2016 21:18:19 GMT
I think you are all over complicating things. For me its simple. Our so called best and most creative players aren't playing well. They aren't taking enough responsibility for making things happen. They are playing too safe. Whether they aren't playing well because they are out of form or simply because, in truth, they are rubbish, is what we should be discussing. My view is that they are rubbish and nowhere near good enough to produce the goods consistently. So essentially we're saying that Hughes has got his tactics and game plan in a muddle but you're actually saying that his tactics are fine, he's simply just signed a load of rubbish footballers who aren't capable of executing his game plan? I hope you're not right mate. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 27, 2016 21:22:29 GMT
I think you are all over complicating things. For me its simple. Our so called best and most creative players aren't playing well. They aren't taking enough responsibility for making things happen. They are playing too safe. Whether they aren't playing well because they are out of form or simply because, in truth, they are rubbish, is what we should be discussing. My view is that they are rubbish and nowhere near good enough to produce the goods consistently. So essentially we're saying that Hughes has got his tactics and game plan in a muddle but you're actually saying that his tactics are fine, he's simply just signed a load of rubbish footballers who aren't capable of executing his game plan? I hope you're not right mate. We've produced some fantastic football playing 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3 so that's absolutely what I'm saying. We've spent a lot of money and handed out unnecessary new contracts to a whole heap of rubbish who we are now going to struggle to get shut of. This will in turn make it even harder to bring new players in because the squad is too big and packed full of shite. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 27, 2016 21:26:29 GMT
So essentially we're saying that Hughes has got his tactics and game plan in a muddle but you're actually saying that his tactics are fine, he's simply just signed a load of rubbish footballers who aren't capable of executing his game plan? I hope you're not right mate. We've produced some fantastic football playing 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3 so that's absolutely what I'm saying. We've spent a lot of money and handed out unnecessary new contracts to a whole heap of rubbish who we are now going to struggle to get shut of. This will in turn make it even harder to bring new players in because the squad is too big and packed full of shite. As I said ... I hope you're wrong Dave. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 27, 2016 21:29:40 GMT
We've produced some fantastic football playing 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3 so that's absolutely what I'm saying. We've spent a lot of money and handed out unnecessary new contracts to a whole heap of rubbish who we are now going to struggle to get shut of. This will in turn make it even harder to bring new players in because the squad is too big and packed full of shite. As I said ... I hope you're wrong Dave. As do I but I fear that mark Hughes has walked a very similar path to the one tony pulis unnecessarily went down. |
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Post by bojancity on Aug 27, 2016 21:35:34 GMT
He's like a mad scientist sometimes, genius on their day but bonkers nevertheless For me it has to be simple, Allen and Imbula should not play together, one should not be pushed in to Bojan's position to accommodate the other If Shaq is out injured we play a wide man in his place, stop fucking about with the formation every other match, i'm not an expert but there's no way it's as complicated as Hughes is making it seem, Crouchy did well against Stevenage but if you're playing a 35yr old giant in a game where we'd typically set up to counter then we've got personel problems Get a couple of players in, get the window shut and stop fucking about and overcomplicating tactics by playing players out of position The next time we kick off I want this: --------------Butland-------------------- Johnson---Shawcross-NEW CB----Pieters ----------Allen----Whelan----------- --Shaq---------Bojan-------Arnie -------------NEW STRIKER------------------- And for christs sake if any of them get injured REPLACE LIKE FOR LIKE Analysis and team is spot on in my eyes, we need to make everything a lot simpler and consistent. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 27, 2016 21:38:00 GMT
As I said ... I hope you're wrong Dave. As do I but I fear that mark Hughes has walked a very similar path to the one tony pulis unnecessarily went down. Yes I do see what you mean mate. He really needs to pull the whole thing into some sort of focus with his signings over the next four days. Although starting Peter Crouch as the man to lead your line today, whilst exclusively attempting to sign Saidio Berahino as the man to do the same job all window, does leave me worried that that focus isn't likely to develop. |
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 28, 2016 8:30:51 GMT
As I said ... I hope you're wrong Dave. As do I but I fear that mark Hughes has walked a very similar path to the one tony pulis unnecessarily went down. Yep, the path that's marked "I've forgotten why my tactics ever worked". I'm just fed up of the chopping and changing from one system to another, and now we seem to have a complete muddle. Leicester won the title based on their players knowing what to do week in, week out: win the ball back and stick it over the top for Vardy to run onto. They worked out the ideal tactic to play to their main striker's strengths and perfected it. Our players are hitting it high for Crouchy one week, playing it to Bojan's feet the next and when Diouf plays I'm not even sure what they're supposed to be doing- ignoring him completely based on what they were doing in the Man City game. Where we go next depends on who we sign, if anyone, to play up top. Personally I don't think Berahino is the man to make 4-3-3 work. If we do sign him I'd immediately go either 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 and then stick with it. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 28, 2016 8:43:38 GMT
As do I but I fear that mark Hughes has walked a very similar path to the one tony pulis unnecessarily went down. Yep, the path that's marked "I've forgotten why my tactics ever worked". I'm just fed up of the chopping and changing from one system to another, and now we seem to have a complete muddle. Leicester won the title based on their players knowing what to do week in, week out: win the ball back and stick it over the top for Vardy to run onto. They worked out the ideal tactic to play to their main striker's strengths and perfected it. Our players are hitting it high for Crouchy one week, playing it to Bojan's feet the next and when Diouf plays I'm not even sure what they're supposed to be doing- ignoring him completely based on what they were doing in the Man City game. Where we go next depends on who we sign, if anyone, to play up top. Personally I don't think Berahino is the man to make 4-3-3 work. If we do sign him I'd immediately go either 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 and then stick with it. Yep. That's just about how I feel. I desperately want to see some outgoings by Wednesday. 3 in 3 out would be ideal. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Aug 28, 2016 8:46:24 GMT
As Trousers forensically details, it is all starting to look like an ill thought-out hodgepodge. It's hard to have any kind of sense about what the big idea is. There've clearly been 2 or 3 players who have not been at all what he was expecting once he got them in the building. Indeed |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 28, 2016 8:49:25 GMT
As Trousers forensically details, it is all starting to look like an ill thought-out hodgepodge. It's hard to have any kind of sense about what the big idea is. There've clearly been 2 or 3 players who have not been at all what he was expecting once he got them in the building. Indeed We need tuncay to transform this team. He'd have suited Hughes down to the ground in the Bojan/3rd midfielder role  |
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Aug 28, 2016 9:09:32 GMT
So essentially we're saying that Hughes has got his tactics and game plan in a muddle but you're actually saying that his tactics are fine, he's simply just signed a load of rubbish footballers who aren't capable of executing his game plan? I hope you're not right mate. We've produced some fantastic football playing 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3 so that's absolutely what I'm saying. We've spent a lot of money and handed out unnecessary new contracts to a whole heap of rubbish who we are now going to struggle to get shut of. This will in turn make it even harder to bring new players in because the squad is too big and packed full of shite. Out of the players we are referring to here I think the way forward for Hughes, and the one he would most be able to stomach, would be to accept that shaqiri and bojan just cannot be accommodated. Go 4-3-3 and perservere with his record signing but get used to taking him off after half an hour and putting adam on if he's having an off day. However, Hughes still needs a striker and a fast right winger who actually also works off the ball to make this work. I won't get onto the defence and my thoughts on the likes of muniesa, bardsley, Wollscheid, pieters, and the back up goalkeeper situation. It is all looking like a fucking shambles right now. Fuck knows what the thinking hasbeen |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 28, 2016 9:15:55 GMT
We've produced some fantastic football playing 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3 so that's absolutely what I'm saying. We've spent a lot of money and handed out unnecessary new contracts to a whole heap of rubbish who we are now going to struggle to get shut of. This will in turn make it even harder to bring new players in because the squad is too big and packed full of shite. Out of the players we are referring to here I think the way forward for Hughes, and the one he would most be able to stomach, would be to accept that shaqiri and bojan just cannot be accommodated. Go 4-3-3 and perservere with his record signing but get used to taking him off after half an hour and putting adam on if he's having an off day. However, Hughes still needs a striker and a fast right winger who actually also works off the ball to make this work. I won't get onto the defence and my thoughts on the likes of muniesa, bardsley, Wollscheid, pieters, and the back up goalkeeper situation. It is all looking like a fucking shambles right now. Fuck knows what the thinking hasbeen A proper right winger, with genuine pace is essential IMHO. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Aug 28, 2016 13:29:07 GMT
We need tuncay to transform this team. He'd have suited Hughes down to the ground in the Bojan/3rd midfielder role Haha absolutely mate. I genuinely think he would have fit this system really well behind the striker. Tuncay Sanli - Star in the hole  |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Aug 28, 2016 13:32:03 GMT
I think it's a good wider point the op makes. We are in Hughes' 4th season and he still seems to have no idea what his best team or formation is. If he doesn't know then it doesn't really instill confidence in the players or fans.
My prediction if we don't sign a defender or striker - Hughes will be gone by December. Clearly if we address these areas we will be fine.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 28, 2016 13:47:59 GMT
I think it's a good wider point the op makes. We are in Hughes' 4th season and he still seems to have no idea what his best team or formation is. If he doesn't know then it doesn't really instill confidence in the players or fans. My prediction if we don't sign a defender or striker - Hughes will be gone by December. Clearly if we address these areas we will be fine. When we beat Liverpool 6-1 we had a really decent side and were a couple of signings away from having a cracking one. We never replaced N'Zonzi and some of the recent signings have been inconsistent at best, sometimes pretty poor. Hughes seems to have lost his mojo and I hope he finds it quickly! |
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