|
Post by trentvale68 on May 23, 2016 15:59:23 GMT
Would we get a second go at a referendum? I hear If it's a stay vote this time, Brussels are ready to move fast legislation and speed up the United States of Europe plan All plans will be speeded up, including a European Army, which will eventually be on the streets not to protect us but to keep us under control. Remainers have no idea what this monster is set to become. Totally 100% agree
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 23, 2016 16:28:18 GMT
Glenn In my opinion you make some excellent points. The Labour party is always going to represent the working class more than the Tories , and historically theyhave achieved a tremendous lot in the struggle against the odds. They seem to have list their way through focusing on " minority issyes" ( which are important ) instead of listening znd trying to represent the concerns of the working class, which might not be the same as the leaders of the party think that they should be . Labour needs to be a mass movement and to remember that their only strength is through unity The membership seems pretty unified, Big John. www.totalpolitics.com/articles/news/setback-labour-plotters-poll-suggests-jeremy-corbyn-cant-be-oustedSheik I realise that the new members are behind Corbyn, but obviously there is a rift with the old Blairites, but what I believe is that there is a gulf between what the party are saying and the traditional working class VOTER. I think that they do have concerns about immigration. The voters ( might be middle class now but roots and heart with Labour ) who have perhaps improved their lot also have concerns around jobs for their young people their possibility of getting a mortgage ,housing, education student loans etc. I don't really think that Labour are offering anything dynamic on any of those issues (or at least not convincing enough to get past the media). They need some of the middle ground VOTERS, like it or not, in order to win an election. Then I personally believe that the party has let Jeremy down over Europe and democracy which could have brought them more votes.
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on May 23, 2016 16:49:19 GMT
Sheik I realise that the new members are behind Corbyn, but obviously there is a rift with the old Blairites, but what I believe is that there is a gulf between what the party are saying and the traditional working class VOTER. I think that they do have concerns about immigration. The voters ( might be middle class now but roots and heart with Labour ) who have perhaps improved their lot also have concerns around jobs for their young people their possibility of getting a mortgage ,housing, education student loans etc. I don't really think that Labour are offering anything dynamic on any of those issues (or at least not convincing enough to get past the media). They need some of the middle ground VOTERS, like it or not, in order to win an election. Then I personally believe that the party has let Jeremy down over Europe and democracy which could have brought them more votes. I don't disagree to much with you BJR but I think for every ‘middle class’ voter a moderate Blairite candidate would gain, a traditional Labour voter would be lost. Corbyn is immensely popular with the membership, his landslide came in both new and old members. There is no thirst and certainly no obvious unifying candidate that would be palatable to middle class voters and the Labour rank and file. The only option is for the Parliamentary Party to grow a pair of balls and to stand foursquare behind the different message that Corbyn provides. People do not want shades of grey, they’ve checked out, that why this vile austerity obsessed bunch of bullies are raging a war on the weak, the poor and the vulnerable on just 24% of the electorate. A different message, one that has unified and re-energised the rank and file is surely a road worth pursuing, isn’t it?
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on May 23, 2016 17:26:27 GMT
Sheik I realise that the new members are behind Corbyn, but obviously there is a rift with the old Blairites, but what I believe is that there is a gulf between what the party are saying and the traditional working class VOTER. I think that they do have concerns about immigration. The voters ( might be middle class now but roots and heart with Labour ) who have perhaps improved their lot also have concerns around jobs for their young people their possibility of getting a mortgage ,housing, education student loans etc. I don't really think that Labour are offering anything dynamic on any of those issues (or at least not convincing enough to get past the media). They need some of the middle ground VOTERS, like it or not, in order to win an election. Then I personally believe that the party has let Jeremy down over Europe and democracy which could have brought them more votes. I don't disagree to much with you BJR but I think for every ‘middle class’ voter a moderate Blairite candidate would gain, a traditional Labour voter would be lost. Corbyn is immensely popular with the membership, his landslide came in both new and old members. There is no thirst and certainly no obvious unifying candidate that would be palatable to middle class voters and the Labour rank and file. The only option is for the Parliamentary Party to grow a pair of balls and to stand foursquare behind the different message that Corbyn provides. People do not want shades of grey, they’ve checked out, that why this vile austerity obsessed bunch of bullies are raging a war on the weak, the poor and the vulnerable on just 24% of the electorate. A different message, one that has unified and re-energised the rank and file is surely a road worth pursuing, isn’t it? He is that popular he forsake this country with his historic anti EU beliefs to change his tune to lead a split party and secure a shadow cabinet. Imagine what he could do if he led his party and this country out of the EU
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on May 23, 2016 17:43:41 GMT
I don't disagree to much with you BJR but I think for every ‘middle class’ voter a moderate Blairite candidate would gain, a traditional Labour voter would be lost. Corbyn is immensely popular with the membership, his landslide came in both new and old members. There is no thirst and certainly no obvious unifying candidate that would be palatable to middle class voters and the Labour rank and file. The only option is for the Parliamentary Party to grow a pair of balls and to stand foursquare behind the different message that Corbyn provides. People do not want shades of grey, they’ve checked out, that why this vile austerity obsessed bunch of bullies are raging a war on the weak, the poor and the vulnerable on just 24% of the electorate. A different message, one that has unified and re-energised the rank and file is surely a road worth pursuing, isn’t it? He is that popular he forsake this country with his historic anti EU beliefs to change his tune to lead a split party and secure a shadow cabinet. Imagine what he could do if he led his party and this country out of the EU His stance on the EU is a perfectly acceptable one. It is an institution in desperate need of reform and although staying in is not particularly desirable it can be more desirable than leaving. You may not agree but it's an entirely more rational position than the lunatics at the head of the main campaigns are making.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on May 23, 2016 17:56:43 GMT
He is that popular he forsake this country with his historic anti EU beliefs to change his tune to lead a split party and secure a shadow cabinet. Imagine what he could do if he led his party and this country out of the EU His stance on the EU is a perfectly acceptable one. It is an institution in desperate need of reform and although staying in is not particularly desirable it can be more desirable than leaving. You may not agree but it's an entirely more rational position than the lunatics at the head of the main campaigns are making. both campaigns are dog shite But you are very wrong about reform. You cannot reform from in. Regardless of your thoughts on him and his party, Cameron has just proven that. Corbyn wouldn't fare any better But from outside you can pick and choose what bits are best for us
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 23, 2016 18:02:44 GMT
His stance on the EU is a perfectly acceptable one. It is an institution in desperate need of reform and although staying in is not particularly desirable it can be more desirable than leaving. You may not agree but it's an entirely more rational position than the lunatics at the head of the main campaigns are making. both campaigns are dog shite But you are very wrong about reform. You cannot reform from in. Regardless of your thoughts on him and his party, Cameron has just proven that. Corbyn wouldn't fare any better But from outside you can pick and choose what bits are best for us I agree Salop. The EU is totally unreformable. It is meant to be anti democratic in essence , enshrined in the treaties, so the reforms that I believe people are asking for are intrinsically impossible
|
|
|
Post by harryburrows on May 23, 2016 18:08:51 GMT
He is that popular he forsake this country with his historic anti EU beliefs to change his tune to lead a split party and secure a shadow cabinet. Imagine what he could do if he led his party and this country out of the EU His stance on the EU is a perfectly acceptable one. It is an institution in desperate need of reform and although staying in is not particularly desirable it can be more desirable than leaving. You may not agree but it's an entirely more rational position than the lunatics at the head of the main campaigns are making. How can it be a rational position sheik when the desperate reforms needed to continue will never come . The status quo will be maintained by a few power brokers , the Germans and the French . There are no accountable leaders seeking election, no audited accounts in decades . No democratic processes . No competent economic strategy and utter contempt for the wishes of hundreds of millions of folks who live within the EU
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 23, 2016 18:20:22 GMT
He is that popular he forsake this country with his historic anti EU beliefs to change his tune to lead a split party and secure a shadow cabinet. Imagine what he could do if he led his party and this country out of the EU His stance on the EU is a perfectly acceptable one. It is an institution in desperate need of reform and although staying in is not particularly desirable it can be more desirable than leaving. You may not agree but it's an entirely more rational position than the lunatics at the head of the main campaigns are making. Sheik When Jeremy made his speech clarifying his stance he was very careful with his words , as you know. Something like " the party has decided this, I am the leader of the party, so that's what I am backing" He did not say he believed in the EU with any passion but as you say it us a perfectly reasonable position for a leader to take , normally. Except in my opinion it is wrong for reasons. The EU will eventually be seen for what it is , and its antidemocratic nature is fundamentally against the working class, and all the history for equal rights /the vote etc. I know that you know this but I believe ( as does Jeremy) that Tony Benn had it right. Secondly , whether we like it or not, the British public like a LEADER. He has been emasculated on the most important question facing the UK in our lifetime. It is serious stuff. Cometh the hour , cometh the man.If the following scenario happened , which it obviously won't, Brexit would win and Jeremy would go down in history as a man of courage ( I believe,in my opinion of course, others would try to brand him , weak and indecisive) If he said something like " tomorrow morning at 11.00 the Labour party has an extremely important anouncement" And then went on to tell the truth, that the Labour party have been debating this important decision and have decided that the right thing to do is Brexit" Then give a good case for it. Clearly in 'normal'politics an insane thing to do , but these are extrordinary times. I don't know where that would leave Jeremy and the Labour party after the vote, but I do believe a Brexit will render the Labour party irrelevant for the foreseeable future. A vote to Remain is a vote for Dave who will be triumphant and untouchable forever more. Clearly nonsense and wishful thinking and I have not thought it through but I just think Labour have got it wrong on this big time
|
|
|
Post by ihaveadream on May 24, 2016 13:07:41 GMT
Someone new will rise from the ashes by then Karren Brady probably has her eye on the position
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 13:45:57 GMT
Someone new will rise from the ashes by then Karren Brady probably has her eye on the position That wouldn't surprise me one bit hooefully we will have moved on from that kind of politician by then wont hold my breath tho
|
|
|
Post by Northy on May 24, 2016 16:20:58 GMT
Salop
|
|