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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 19:56:48 GMT
When Mark Hughes took over from Tony Pulis, we were led onto a road of "Kaizen" (continuous improvement). Our Mr Coates knows what he is doing, after all this IS a business, and not just a football club. We all knew at the roots of our boots that TP had taken us as far as we could go, and the final season had been excruciating fayre. But we all agreed that that man had put his heart and soul into things, and had taken us to an FA Cup final, no mean achievement, as Roberto Martinez would happily concede this evening.
So welcome MLH and team. It was time to give us Potters what the elders amongst us craved, a return to Waddo football, and the glory days. And the signs were so promising, within no time at all, we had smaller, lighter players who could hip sway a la George Eastham, and leave defenders for dead, bringing back fond memories of Peter Dobing and Roy Vernon. OK so we did not have another Gordon Banks (impossible for ANY manager to recreate) but we DID have a young pretender, surely on his way to Euro 2016. The injury to young Jack whilst playing for England was utterly cruel.
And I found myself purring with delight at what we were seeing. Suddenly, Stoke City was becoming a FOOTBALL team once more, even some of the pundits were beginning to notice. Whatever Mr Hughes and his team was doing was working, and working well. The improvement was there for all to see.
It was like a dream, and like all dreams, there came the point of awakening. Suddenly, those of us remembering those glory days were asking. "What has happened to Smith and Bluto"? Yes, we had almost recreated TC, Huddy, Greenhoff and co, but had we perhaps lost the spine? I know that I will be pilloried for this, but what the heck? As long as we had Ryan and Huth, we had Denis and Bluto. We had all the defensive know how, and also quite a few goals from those pairings. But we decided to release one of the pairing to a rival, and that might indeed lead to a premier league championship medal for him. And good luck to the guy.
The point I am trying to make here is that a football team, at any level, needs to start from a solid defensive base. TP had that part absolutely right. I am not going to trawl through stats, but I think I'd be right to say that all Mark Hughes clubs have not defended particularly well.
My conclusion? We are in a marvellous position, and we could look back on Mark's third season as "unlucky with injuries" or "a time to consolidate", but all managers, whether they be in football or industry are creatures of habit. I think that MLH as an ex striker, and a bloody good one, is probably more focused on goal creation than goal prevention. I don't see that changing.
Solution? Simple. Just get a guy who can score 20 plus goals a season. They DO exist, and not necessarily mythical figures from overseas. How many goals have Vardy and Alli scored this season? And where were they plucked from?
It is SO easy to slag TP and make the case for LMH to be the saviour. Fact remains that somewhere between the two of them exists our perfect manager.
I love this football club, and I want everything that all of YOU want. Sometimes, you just have to say it as you see it. Any disrespectful replies to this will be totally ignored. Thanks
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Post by chrisparker on Apr 23, 2016 20:03:36 GMT
Yes we did sell Huth but you fail to point out that last season under Hughes was defensively our best ever premier league season (i.e. we conceded the fewest number of goals) & I don't recall Huth playing too many games (In fact if you look back in the past, on average, Les' teams have had a far better defensive record than Pulis' teams). Selling Huth was not the catastrophic decision everyone makes it out to be. Yes we could use his leadership right now but our problems really lie elsewhere.
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Post by mumf on Apr 23, 2016 20:04:35 GMT
Very very good sir...
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 23, 2016 20:07:00 GMT
It isn't simple to find a 20 goal a season striker when you're Stoke City.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Apr 23, 2016 20:10:28 GMT
Bang on , a combination of he qualities of Hughes and TP would a very good manager make for a club like ours we seem to be moving from one extreme to the other just now"
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Post by kidcrewbob on Apr 23, 2016 20:10:43 GMT
So in a sentence we need a better defence and a more prolific goal scorer.
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Post by chuffedstokie on Apr 23, 2016 20:12:41 GMT
It isn't simple to find a 20 goal a season striker when you're Stoke City. Is it possible we have one but just don't know it yet. |
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 23, 2016 20:14:50 GMT
It isn't simple to find a 20 goal a season striker when you're Stoke City. Is it possible we have one but just don't know it yet. Yeah, possibly, if we create enough chances. |
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Apr 23, 2016 20:33:57 GMT
Is it possible we have one but just don't know it yet. Yeah, possibly, if we create enough chances. I could only think of Diouf but he would need an awful lot of chances at his best he seems to work and find them but it's been a tough season for him on and off the pitch , no other prolific scorers on the books really |
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Post by cheshirepotter on Apr 24, 2016 0:48:53 GMT
Nice piece and I agree that we have lost our spine. We have also lost our DNA. This has happened gradually over the last three years as one team has been dismantled and another created. Although losing some of that was not a bad thing, the pendulum has swung too far the other way. I'm not sure whether we have a DNA now.
I don't feel the answer is simply a 20 goal striker - whilst the inclusion of one would obviously be a massive boost. If you compare us against the top teams this season, their general play has been quick, fluid and direct, whilst ours has been anything but, especially recently. Yes we have missed chances and had injuries, but I don't think we can, nor should, hide behind that.
TP did a good job - MH has done a good job - but I think we are losing, or have lost, our direction and focus.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Apr 24, 2016 0:55:13 GMT
Mr Coates left the game before I did today so I suspect he thought we were fucking hopeless as well
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Post by kustokie on Apr 24, 2016 3:29:21 GMT
When Mark Hughes took over from Tony Pulis, we were led onto a road of "Kaizen" (continuous improvement). Our Mr Coates knows what he is doing, after all this IS a business, and not just a football club. We all knew at the roots of our boots that TP had taken us as far as we could go, and the final season had been excruciating fayre. But we all agreed that that man had put his heart and soul into things, and had taken us to an FA Cup final, no mean achievement, as Roberto Martinez would happily concede this evening. So welcome MLH and team. It was time to give us Potters what the elders amongst us craved, a return to Waddo football, and the glory days. And the signs were so promising, within no time at all, we had smaller, lighter players who could hip sway a la George Eastham, and leave defenders for dead, bringing back fond memories of Peter Dobing and Roy Vernon. OK so we did not have another Gordon Banks (impossible for ANY manager to recreate) but we DID have a young pretender, surely on his way to Euro 2016. The injury to young Jack whilst playing for England was utterly cruel. And I found myself purring with delight at what we were seeing. Suddenly, Stoke City was becoming a FOOTBALL team once more, even some of the pundits were beginning to notice. Whatever Mr Hughes and his team was doing was working, and working well. The improvement was there for all to see. It was like a dream, and like all dreams, there came the point of awakening. Suddenly, those of us remembering those glory days were asking. "What has happened to Smith and Bluto"? Yes, we had almost recreated TC, Huddy, Greenhoff and co, but had we perhaps lost the spine? I know that I will be pilloried for this, but what the heck? As long as we had Ryan and Huth, we had Denis and Bluto. We had all the defensive know how, and also quite a few goals from those pairings. But we decided to release one of the pairing to a rival, and that might indeed lead to a premier league championship medal for him. And good luck to the guy. The point I am trying to make here is that a football team, at any level, needs to start from a solid defensive base. TP had that part absolutely right. I am not going to trawl through stats, but I think I'd be right to say that all Mark Hughes clubs have not defended particularly well. My conclusion? We are in a marvellous position, and we could look back on Mark's third season as "unlucky with injuries" or "a time to consolidate", but all managers, whether they be in football or industry are creatures of habit. I think that MLH as an ex striker, and a bloody good one, is probably more focused on goal creation than goal prevention. I don't see that changing. Solution? Simple. Just get a guy who can score 20 plus goals a season. They DO exist, and not necessarily mythical figures from overseas. How many goals have Vardy and Alli scored this season? And where were they plucked from? It is SO easy to slag TP and make the case for LMH to be the saviour. Fact remains that somewhere between the two of them exists our perfect manager. I love this football club, and I want everything that all of YOU want. Sometimes, you just have to say it as you see it. Any disrespectful replies to this will be totally ignored. Thanks This is bang on with a couple of caveats. 1) the best form of defense is attack, if you are banging them in at one end, the other team is too busy trying to keep you out to mount a serious attack down the other end and 2) people rave about Smithy and Bluto and sometimes forget about the full backs. First and foremost, Marsh and Pejic were great defenders but they were not afraid to make runs up the wing and fire crosses into the box. Also, the year Stoke won the LC they played 60 matches with a very small squad of maybe 14-15 first team players and only one sub that was rarely used as tactical move. I doubt they even knew what a hamstring was let alone that you could tweak it a bit and get a couple of weeks off. A bit over the top, but I feel a better after a good rant. I'm off to bed. I hope I'll wake up in the morning and find it was all a bad dream. |
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Post by cerebralstokie on Apr 24, 2016 7:39:57 GMT
Seato, I am even older than you! I agree with almost everything you say. Many in the team of the 70's had Stoke in their D.N.A. and the team of the 30's and 40's were nearly all locally born. I accept that we trawl Europe for what appear to be good players and most of our imports have shown flashes of what they are capable of, but I would love to see the youth set up producing players who are able to "cut the mustard" in the Premier League. The way things are, this seems to be increasingly difficult.
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Post by loosestools on Apr 24, 2016 8:21:06 GMT
Totally agree with the OP, well said that man.
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Post by Davef on Apr 24, 2016 8:29:44 GMT
Just one point about the OP... Roberto Martinez has actually won the FA Cup!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 9:54:11 GMT
Yes, some great points made, Davef you are spot on in that Martinez HAS won the FA Cup, which I had forgotten about, and kustokie you are bang on with your memories of Marsh and Pejic. They were almost like extra wingers, and their crossing into the box (particularly Jack) was usually spot on. Listening to many of the supporters' comments this morning, it looks as though LMH is going through the inevitable pressure following such a poor run of results. The squad looked a little threadbare yesterday, which is certainly not his fault. However, I shall always point to the sale of The Berlin Wall as a major misjudgement. I also wonder why, given that we were out of the game yesterday with 15 minutes to go, he did not give at least one of the kids a taste of Premier League action. Is that not what an academy is for?
We need to look to next season now, and hopefully hit the ground running with some new blood in the It is the back four first team. I am very concerned about Ryan now. Looks to me like he is playing in pain. I think that Whelan, following the Euros in the summer, will still want to play every game, but there needs to be a succession plan in place for him now. It is the back four where the management need to focus right now. We need to be looking to keep some clean sheets, but that is light years away at this time.
This is LMH's first REAL test since coming here. He inherited a fine defence, and now his team needs to look back at that first two seasons and see where it has gone wrong. That is what they are paid to do, and do it they must.
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Post by OldStokie on Apr 24, 2016 10:00:52 GMT
Yes we did sell Huth but you fail to point out that last season under Hughes was defensively our best ever premier league season (i.e. we conceded the fewest number of goals) & I don't recall Huth playing too many games (In fact if you look back in the past, on average, Les' teams have had a far better defensive record than Pulis' teams). Selling Huth was not the catastrophic decision everyone makes it out to be. Yes we could use his leadership right now but our problems really lie elsewhere. With respect to the OP, this quote above should tell you that you're not completely right even though you bring up many saleient points that many of us would agree with. Also as an 'oldie', I have my own theory as to what has gone wrong. It's not the complete story, but it goes part way to explaining what is happening to us. 1) We are still a work in progress, and as we know, many players from overseas take quite a while to settle to the pace (if ever they do) of our Premier League. This league is played at such a high pace and tempo that it requires players to be not only good footballers, but amazing athletes, too, and like all other athletic sports, injuries can play a large part in an individual's or team's progress or otherwise. You only have to look at the back injury to Tiger Woods to see how the mighty can fall through injury. And I could give many other examples of how injuries affect performance/s at every level. 2)To be successful in this league requires purchasing either a large number of players who are as good as each other but who will be prepared to sit on the bench until called up to replace injured players, or to bring in youngsters who may turn out to be great players. Martial at The Shit is an example of how that works. He's pretty much saved their season single handedly. The former requires a massive amount of investment and still it isn't always successful. The latter has a mixture of great scouting and good luck AND dipping deep in the pocket to take a chancer. So when a team pay £36,000,000 for young player, possibly rising to £57,000,000, then it's down to good scouting and good luck. For many reasons, the acquisition of Martial could have backfired. Many have. At this stage of our progress, how could we possibly pay those sums of money to take a chance that it might pay off big style? We're not Moneybags Manure so we have to look in the bargain basement for most of our players. And in this regard Hughes has done well with the likes of Bojan and Shakiri and Afellay and Johnson and Arnie and Pieters. The jury is still out on Imbula for £18,000,000, but I'd like to bet that given a close season he will improve massively beyond what we've already seen, and some things about him have really impressed many of us. 3) Injuries. The terrible run of injuries to our team this season and last have been nothing less than catastrophic. I don't go with this theory that they're due to our training methods. Except for some individuals who seem able to walk through brick walls and come out unscathed, most athletes are prone to injuries of some kind. Take Ryan for instance. For some reason due to his physical makeup he's prone to back injuries. So you can see where I'm going? And injuries don't just affect a player while they're injured, the serious ones affect the player for a few weeks/months after they try to get back to fitness, and some players never get over terrible ligament injuries. Ryan is the perfect example of that. If anyone thinks he isn't one of the top five centre halves in England then they know little about nogger. But yesterday he looked like a slow and ponderous novice. 4) A settled team. This, probably more than most things is the reason why teams are successful. Spurs and Leicester show how this can work, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Leicester don't win the league now because of the loss of Vardy, who has been a massive boost to them this season. So injuries and suspensions can take a toll on perforamces. And in that regard we have suffered terribly. Injuries to key players mean losses, and losses drain confidence, and even the best managers have difficulty during those times. 5) Given all of the above, even though I hate losing and am as disappointed as anyone, I can see the much bigger picture than most of those who have lost their heads and blown their minds because we've gone on a terrible run of form. And given those injuries and disruptions we've gone through this season, I'm amazed we might finish in the top half of the table. I've written this season off, especially now Afellay has become another long-term casualty, but I haven't written off the managerial team nor the team. That's all. OS. |
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 24, 2016 10:01:37 GMT
Yes we did sell Huth but you fail to point out that last season under Hughes was defensively our best ever premier league season (i.e. we conceded the fewest number of goals) & I don't recall Huth playing too many games (In fact if you look back in the past, on average, Les' teams have had a far better defensive record than Pulis' teams). Selling Huth was not the catastrophic decision everyone makes it out to be. Yes we could use his leadership right now but our problems really lie elsewhere. So glad we got Wolfy in as a replacement his leadership is astounding as are his gloves worn on a spring evening  |
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Post by unknown182 on Apr 24, 2016 10:07:53 GMT
Telford, N'goy or Abdallah might be 20 goal strikers for all we know. Which is why we should give them a chance between now and the end of the season whilst the injuries have piled up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 10:11:05 GMT
OS, I am not writing off the management team, just saying that no is their biggest test to date, and they need to work hard now to ear their handsome salaries. Great points you made there sir.
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Post by OldStokie on Apr 24, 2016 10:17:08 GMT
OS, I am not writing off the management team, just saying that no is their biggest test to date, and they need to work hard now to ear their handsome salaries. Great points you made there sir. My comments if negative were not directed at you Owd 'un. I agree with much of what you said. But injuries do take a toll. Smithy could run through a brick wall, or so 'they' said, but in fact Dennis broke his leg so many times that maybe we should put that down to 'training methods'? See where I'm coming from? I remember when we should have won the league but we suffered 3 or 4 broken legs and failed. I can't recall our supporters at the time blaming the manager and saying he was rubbish.  OS |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 10:27:35 GMT
No you are right, we didn't hear the "Waddington Out" chants until the stand blew down and he had to sell Greenhoff. Fickle game!!!!!
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Post by march4 on Apr 24, 2016 10:40:58 GMT
The saving grace is that LMH has shown that he is good at turning round bad runs of form.
I expect us to beat Sunderland with room to spare and then win at Palace.
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Post by stokiejoe on Apr 24, 2016 11:09:24 GMT
I have always maintained, probably always will, that attack begins in defence
You can't go rushing forward unless you are secure at the back. Likewise, with the exception of Adam and Begonia, you don't score from your own half.
TPS was right and so is Hughes but we need a combination of both of their talents, a strong defence and an effective attack.
I have every faith that we will get there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 11:26:02 GMT
Score more concede less job done simple. Watching stoke for the past 35 years I've seen ups and downs ok we look like we are on holiday ( shit ) but it wasn't so long ago we were stokealona. Managers & players will come & go being a football fan is a all about enjoying the good times & being pragmatic about the bad times . If all else fails there are two options stop going ( never going to happen ) or go the pub & drown your sorrows.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Apr 24, 2016 12:58:30 GMT
I reckon' it'd be a dereliction of duty if LMH & co didn't review the training methodology, and look into our injury woes to see if they can do owt to improve things.
Not good enough just to accept them as part of the game.
The boots, the playing/training surfaces etc. should all be reviewed {constantly}.
Not saying they should abandon the Rodan/periodisation approach but something needs tweaking in order to better maximize our potential.
The training methods are designed to achieve a stronger finish to the season, taking below par performances early doors on the chin as seemingly an accepted part of such a plan.
There isn't the intensive preseason preparation that sees other teams bosting out of the blocks from the first match, up for the challenge from the off.
With our way fitness should build incrementally so {in theory} we're getting stronger as other teams start to flag.
We've had three seasons of sluggish starts, sluggish starts which appear to be all part of the plan.
It'd be all well and good but the inevitable injuries have knackered the 'plan'completely again this year.
We're not shit, nor in crisis, but with our squad and it's potential it's a bit of a let down.
The last two seasons injuries have meant we havn't been able to properly push on.
{It was perhaps only bringing Odemwingie in that saw us kick on post xmas in the first season.}
Some injuries are just accidents, largely unavoidable but the 'margins' in Prem football are so important any possible advantage needs to be seized upon, minor improvements mean a lot.
We're ok, mid table isn't a problem, and certainly not cause for the gnashing of teeth on here, but again I'm left with the feeling of failing to fulfill our potential.
I'm obv. not qualified in sports science, SCFC have access to all the data etc to support their methods, I just wonder whether our training methods:
-Places less emphasis on teamwork/partnerships, it's based on individual programmes as opposed to team building.
I think it manifests itself in rarely seeing a 'team' performance over 90 minutes. We've relied on the individual performance of Arnie to win us games this season.
-Exacerbates/increases the likelihood of injuries. If players aren't fully fit until xmas, by definition they'll be more likely to suffer knocks and tears etc. Fit players are better able to ride challenges and recover from injuries quicker.
-The slow start means we're playing catch up from the off. I think it's ridiculous not to treat every one of the 38 games as equally important, the Prem doesn't award more points for a win at the end of the season.
-Makes it even more difficult to integrate new players/bring them up to speed.
I suppose the Euros will complicate our plans for preseason, I'm advocating they're made to run up at least half a mountain in the summer
We may again finish top half, it'll be fine but it'll still feel a little hollow this year.
We could have done so much better with more attention to some nogger basics.
Routines and discipline as a bedrock for the flair to then flourish.
THROW-INS, SET PIECES and CORNERS--- Aaaaaarghhhh.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 13:32:22 GMT
Hughes may be a former forward, but his assistant managers/first team coach are a defnder, Mark Bowen, and a goalie, Niedzwicki, so you'd expect them to exert influence on a defensive way of thinking. We've also bought internationally experrienced defnders in recent years, so I dont think it's a defensive fallacy as such.
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Post by Gods on Apr 24, 2016 13:48:39 GMT
There is no such thing as a "20 goals a season striker" in a team that doesn't manage 40 goals in total.
I mean you are never going to have 1 player who scores more than 50% of your goals.
Sure we need a hot-shot striker but we need to create a whole lot more too and chip in with some more goals from all over the pitch.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 14:07:57 GMT
I see my arse every time we lose. I cannot help it, sorry, but for some unknown reason this weekend I've been worse than ever. I was in a terrible mood yesterday and nothing could calm me down. The opening post is very good though, it must be said. What I want to see desperately next week is our team at least trying to play well and putting one over on Sunderland. I'm just about calming down a bit now, but yesterday. Woe is me!
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Post by leicspotter on Apr 24, 2016 20:01:20 GMT
When Mark Hughes took over from Tony Pulis, we were led onto a road of "Kaizen" (continuous improvement). Our Mr Coates knows what he is doing, after all this IS a business, and not just a football club. We all knew at the roots of our boots that TP had taken us as far as we could go, and the final season had been excruciating fayre. But we all agreed that that man had put his heart and soul into things, and had taken us to an FA Cup final, no mean achievement, as Roberto Martinez would happily concede this evening. So welcome MLH and team. It was time to give us Potters what the elders amongst us craved, a return to Waddo football, and the glory days. And the signs were so promising, within no time at all, we had smaller, lighter players who could hip sway a la George Eastham, and leave defenders for dead, bringing back fond memories of Peter Dobing and Roy Vernon. OK so we did not have another Gordon Banks (impossible for ANY manager to recreate) but we DID have a young pretender, surely on his way to Euro 2016. The injury to young Jack whilst playing for England was utterly cruel. And I found myself purring with delight at what we were seeing. Suddenly, Stoke City was becoming a FOOTBALL team once more, even some of the pundits were beginning to notice. Whatever Mr Hughes and his team was doing was working, and working well. The improvement was there for all to see. It was like a dream, and like all dreams, there came the point of awakening. Suddenly, those of us remembering those glory days were asking. "What has happened to Smith and Bluto"? Yes, we had almost recreated TC, Huddy, Greenhoff and co, but had we perhaps lost the spine? I know that I will be pilloried for this, but what the heck? As long as we had Ryan and Huth, we had Denis and Bluto. We had all the defensive know how, and also quite a few goals from those pairings. But we decided to release one of the pairing to a rival, and that might indeed lead to a premier league championship medal for him. And good luck to the guy. The point I am trying to make here is that a football team, at any level, needs to start from a solid defensive base. TP had that part absolutely right. I am not going to trawl through stats, but I think I'd be right to say that all Mark Hughes clubs have not defended particularly well. My conclusion? We are in a marvellous position, and we could look back on Mark's third season as "unlucky with injuries" or "a time to consolidate", but all managers, whether they be in football or industry are creatures of habit. I think that MLH as an ex striker, and a bloody good one, is probably more focused on goal creation than goal prevention. I don't see that changing. Solution? Simple. Just get a guy who can score 20 plus goals a season. They DO exist, and not necessarily mythical figures from overseas. How many goals have Vardy and Alli scored this season? And where were they plucked from? It is SO easy to slag TP and make the case for LMH to be the saviour. Fact remains that somewhere between the two of them exists our perfect manager. I love this football club, and I want everything that all of YOU want. Sometimes, you just have to say it as you see it. Any disrespectful replies to this will be totally ignored. Thanks We decided in the car coming home that we need Pulis to run the "home" team and LMH to take the away trips  |
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