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Post by darius on Nov 30, 2015 11:03:16 GMT
Isn't it strange that on here, we often disagree, yet every point you've made in this article is absolutely on the money!! In particular this one: This is something I've been trying to get across all weekend!! Well, 16:48 on Saturday onwards. We, with and without Ryan, were, in the words of Will McKenzie from Inbetweeners, ' fucking dreadful'. We created next to nothing all game (Walters chance aside) and on the whole, we deserved fuck all. They played like a team who really wanted it, and despite their lust for a cheeky dive they were much the better team. We on the other hand, played like a team lacking motivation. Whether that's just the depressing nature of playing Sunderland away (I've only ever been the SOL once and nearly froze to death), it looked like a performance from the start of the season. Unfortunately, the injury to Defoe benefited them more than it hindered them. That young lad Watmore was superb for them and as pointed out by one of the commentators on my feed, his style of play is very simple.... RUN AT THE DEFENDERS!! How many times did our players actually try and run at theirs. You've got probably the slowest defence in Premier League history vs some very quick players in Bojan, Arnie and Shaq, yet I don't think we once made them actually run! As important as it is to mention Mike Dean's dreadful performance, I didn't get the impression he was somehow biased in Sunderland's favour.... otherwise he'd have sent Ryan off in the first half which could have! Was he righting the wrong? Probably, possibly, but Ryan gave him a decision to make. Yes he won the ball, but I was watching a HD stream and my first instinct was he's caught the man. I watched MOTD and again, it's not totally clear cut from several angles. It's only that one angle from behind where you see he makes clear contact. The lad Watmore went down easy yep, but we're clutching. We gave Dean a decision to make and we know he's a bit card happy anyway... As I said, his linesman also has to give him a word in his ear and I don't think that happened. You've highlighted their first goal perfectly. Just how slow were we closing him down? I said at the time, while watching it, "he's got a fuck tonne of space right there" and it was all too easy for him to get a shot off. Perhaps tiring legs? Finally, this will give them a kick for Tuesday. Any complacency will have surely disappeared after that mess. We are better in every department than Sheffield Wednesday, but they will not come here and lie down. We need to beat them professionally and show them why we're Premiership furniture. I'm happy that Ryan isn't playing because he's been superb lately, perhaps he'd be better having a rest considering his injury and lack of pre-season prep. However, I want Sparky to send out a solid team. If we go into this game focussed and determined to win, then we will.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Nov 30, 2015 11:03:44 GMT
How long have I been saying we need a proper striker? It's not rocket science. People assume low goals scored = need striker. It isn't that simple.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2015 11:11:20 GMT
How long have I been saying we need a proper striker? It's not rocket science. People assume low goals scored = need striker. It isn't that simple. Correct. You have to look at the movement of the striker aswell, and ask is he creating the right angles for the right pass?
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Post by chiefdelilah on Nov 30, 2015 11:12:26 GMT
People assume low goals scored = need striker. It isn't that simple. Correct. You have to look at the movement of the striker aswell, and ask is he creating the right angles for the right pass? The movement of the striker, the movement of the players behind him, the support from the full backs and midfield...
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Post by FullerMagic on Nov 30, 2015 11:17:50 GMT
Breaking stubborn defences down might has become a problem for us worthy of a Millennium Prize. The predictability of our forward play on Wearside was depressing. Shaqiri saw a lot of the ball but every time he got it he did the same thing – look to go round the outside, pause, play the ball inside. Arnie drifted increasingly infield to try and escape the extra attention, to no avail. The full backs rarely got into helpful positions. Adam was quiet. Bojan turned in a hi-ho silver lining display, being everywhere and nowhere, baby. Jon Walters worked hard but more often than not was never where we needed him to be. It was defective, and it got worse, not better, until the red card killed it off once and for all.
Good article, Rob.
What really continues to strike you is the almost identical Goundhog Day nature of every single attack. The build-up is scarily predictable like we're operating on a 1-page playbook with the same flaws in each one.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Nov 30, 2015 11:20:58 GMT
Its completely predictable and more teams are working us out in the league. Only the teams higher in the table are too arrogant to adapt to beat us, but soon even they will take notice.
> Sit back and defend > Defend width of the penalty area > Have some pace on the break
Then we inevitably lose
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Post by cousindupree on Nov 30, 2015 11:28:35 GMT
Excellent summary and the we wus robbed cries are pretty much unfounded. Such a difference from the Soton performance, despite the recent run we are very inconsistent. In fact our creative players are madly inconsistent but that's why they are not playing Champs League at the moment. So we are destined pretty much to linger mid table with the cup being the our best chance of Europe next season. As you say we have often seen the team bounce back from a poor performance but its often been against the big teams. The silver lining is indeed that we might get the creative guys performing against Sheff Weds, although I am struggling to remember when we last performed well against poor to average sides. Lets hope Hughes gets them fired up for what is one of our most important games for some time. Christ I have paid a fortune to come over for this one so come on guys lets see an all action display
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 30, 2015 11:30:21 GMT
How long have I been saying we need a proper striker? It's not rocket science. People assume low goals scored = need striker. It isn't that simple. You're correct, but on Saturday Walters was just easily marked out of the game by their defenders, so our wing men had no one to centre to and simply passed it back along the line around the penalty area. Walters and Crouch are too slow to get away from defenders. At least Crouch has a height advantage over opponents but invariably is fouled and the refs do nothing about it; they are not going to give a penalty. But I was also disappointed at Diouf's lack of effort on Saturday, maybe he had decided the match was lost. He looked very disinterested in what was happening; maybe he has not yet recovered from losing his mother. The only time we look dangerous is when Shaqiri and Johnson work 1-2s on the edge of the penalty area and get into the box, that is when we need an instinctive goal poacher to get into space and receive the ball and put it in the net. I guess as I'm writing this the club are having their analysis of Saturday's events and deciding what to do about it.
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Post by pavel on Nov 30, 2015 11:32:03 GMT
We lack creativity moving the ball from the back to our creative players, bojan, Arnie and Shaqiri, everything is much too slow allowing the other team to defend in numbers. By the time the ball gets to our wide men or bojan they are often double marked. Adam has done a job in central midfield but in getting him to do a defensive job sitting back we have negated his strengths, both central midfielders are too deep to hit a ball early or quickly move it out. We do need a box to box midfielder with a creative side to his game, a tall ask but one that is crucial if we are going to progress to the "next level" and we need pace up front, diouf for the moment and perhaps another pacy forward to stretch the opposing defence and create space.
We bemoan our wingers taking a man on but this is one of the hardest positions to play as there is so little space to work in and without quick ball they have little chance as the opposing defence is set and tight on them. Why don't they go wide outside there man that often, well i think there's a clue if you look in the box and see just one man, usually static and surrounded with defenders with little support from other players driving into the box.
I would be inclined to try Afellay rather than Adam, I think he has the legs and pace for this position and he certainly has the creativity and vision to move the ball quickly and pick out run and he also seems to be able to get up and down the field from what I've seen of him.
As for the Sunderland game we were comfortable though very uninspiring until the sending off and I think we would have got a draw but we have to work out how to play against deep defending and I think the key it to move the ball much more quickly in the centre of the park, it's obviously much more complicated than that but ti should be a first step.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Nov 30, 2015 11:37:45 GMT
People assume low goals scored = need striker. It isn't that simple. You're correct, but on Saturday Walters was just easily marked out of the game by their defenders, so our wing men had no one to centre to and simply passed it back along the line around the penalty area. Walters and Crouch are too slow to get away from defenders. At least Crouch has a height advantage over opponents but invariably is fouled and the refs do nothing about it; they are not going to give a penalty. But I was also disappointed at Diouf's lack of effort on Saturday, maybe he had decided the match was lost. He looked very disinterested in what was happening; maybe he has not yet recovered from losing his mother. The only time we look dangerous is when Shaqiri and Johnson work 1-2s on the edge of the penalty area and get into the box, that is when we need an instinctive goal poacher to get into space and receive the ball and put it in the net. I guess as I'm writing this the club are having their analysis of Saturday's events and deciding what to do about it. Walters was poor and easily marked but why is he the only one in the box? Where's the support?
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Post by chiefdelilah on Nov 30, 2015 11:39:14 GMT
Breaking stubborn defences down might has become a problem for us worthy of a Millennium Prize. The predictability of our forward play on Wearside was depressing. Shaqiri saw a lot of the ball but every time he got it he did the same thing – look to go round the outside, pause, play the ball inside. Arnie drifted increasingly infield to try and escape the extra attention, to no avail. The full backs rarely got into helpful positions. Adam was quiet. Bojan turned in a hi-ho silver lining display, being everywhere and nowhere, baby. Jon Walters worked hard but more often than not was never where we needed him to be. It was defective, and it got worse, not better, until the red card killed it off once and for all.Good article, Rob. What really continues to strike you is the almost identical Goundhog Day nature of every single attack. The build-up is scarily predictable like we're operating on a 1-page playbook with the same flaws in each one. Exactly Grapey, there's no fluidity, no variation. We try the same thing and then we give up.
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Post by Davef on Nov 30, 2015 12:30:23 GMT
How can we go from being brilliant to absolute dogshit in a week Do you not think the fixtures we've had so far may have played a part in that? I'm pretty sure that Stoke City is the only club in the Premier League who've played successive away fixtures on three separate occasions this season. We got two draws on the first occasion (Spurs and Norwich), two wins on the second occasion (Swansea and Villa) and we've picked up three points from these last two games against Southampton and Sunderland. Despite the disappointment of Saturday, that's a pretty decent return in my book, especially when you consider that this weekend only us, Man Utd and Arsenal played away on the second successive week since the international break and Arsenal won just one point out of six. In fact, I think only Manchester City and Stoke have won successive away games at any point during the season so far.
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Post by JoeinOz on Nov 30, 2015 12:34:20 GMT
We've had better days but much MUCH worse ones.
Anyway it's done and over. Now we have a big brassy tart of a cup tie to look forward to.
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Post by haway on Nov 30, 2015 13:32:28 GMT
"We got what we deserved"
I admire your honesty, good read.
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Post by WoodbineWright2@ on Nov 30, 2015 14:16:37 GMT
Yes we need either our strikers to suddenly start hitting the net regularly, or find one that can (easier said) pronto. But more importantly, the rest of the team needs to be scoring, we don't take enough of our chances created & it's that simple. But I'm over the Sunderland debacle already. Bring on the Wendys & Mancs.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Nov 30, 2015 14:23:45 GMT
Yes we need either our strikers to suddenly start hitting the net regularly, or find one that can (easier said) pronto. But more importantly, the rest of the team needs to be scoring, we don't take enough of our chances created & it's that simple. But I'm over the Sunderland debacle already. Bring on the Wendys & Mancs. We're not creating the chances in the first place Woodbine.
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Post by Kjones9 on Nov 30, 2015 14:35:52 GMT
So we are destined pretty much to linger mid table with the cup being the our best chance of Europe next season. Get out of town!!
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Post by WoodbineWright2@ on Nov 30, 2015 14:38:12 GMT
Yes we need either our strikers to suddenly start hitting the net regularly, or find one that can (easier said) pronto. But more importantly, the rest of the team needs to be scoring, we don't take enough of our chances created & it's that simple. But I'm over the Sunderland debacle already. Bring on the Wendys & Mancs. We're not creating the chances in the first place Woodbine. I think we do create chances, not as many as we should but enough to be scoring more than we do, Chief. Maybe not so many at Sunderland, and to be fair SJW shot wasn't bad and the keeper has done well but we need to convert those. And look at how many we blazed over at Southampton.
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Post by Kjones9 on Nov 30, 2015 14:45:05 GMT
We need to look in the transfer winow and splash out for a regular goal scoring striker we obviously don't have the strength in that area, we are finding the opportunities but not finishing, that was so evident at Southampton. Be tough for Sparky to get that past old Coatesy though I would imagine. Don't forget Mr. Coates was persuaded to sign extensions for Crouch and Odemwingie in the summer neither of whom any longer feature and we just extended Walters contract too for another 3 years and SJW himself may be about to be invited to take a rest. If you then toss in the £6 million we invested in the frozen out Joselou in the summer it is starting to get a bit silly. I suspect if Sparky were to go to the Chairman now and say 'How are we fixed for another striker Mr. Coates?' I fear it would leave him with copious quantities of steam coming out if his ears followed by a stream of the sort of expletives you would not normally expect from a man of that age in his position! More spurious waffle.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Nov 30, 2015 14:54:37 GMT
We're not creating the chances in the first place Woodbine. I think we do create chances, not as many as we should but enough to be scoring more than we do, Chief. Maybe not so many at Sunderland, and to be fair SJW shot wasn't bad and the keeper has done well but we need to convert those. And look at how many we blazed over at Southampton. Southampton was very much the exception rather than the rule though mate. Generally speaking, we haven't created many clear-cut chances in games, particularly when teams have sat back against us.
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Post by WoodbineWright2@ on Nov 30, 2015 15:02:35 GMT
I think we do create chances, not as many as we should but enough to be scoring more than we do, Chief. Maybe not so many at Sunderland, and to be fair SJW shot wasn't bad and the keeper has done well but we need to convert those. And look at how many we blazed over at Southampton. Southampton was very much the exception rather than the rule though mate. Generally speaking, we haven't created many clear-cut chances in games, particularly when teams have sat back against us. I can't disagree with you mate, I suppose. I always try to see as many positives in a match as possible. I don't really do over critical. But we do need to be better in the games where sides sit back, and we have to take go for them and create more. We really do struggle to put them away don't we. That is our Achilles heel and in general, has been for many seasons and it frustrates us all.
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Post by potterglen on Nov 30, 2015 19:00:34 GMT
Analysis of the fiasco 100% correct, and it was a fiasco. Seems to be the norm for Sunderland where I've seen Shawcross sent off twice, Cattermole prevent a goal with a double handball and numerous goals scored from free kicks just outside the box. What I find baffling is that none of our players seem to spot the game plan - I've seen Fletcher 'at it' for 3 seasons now so I'm wondering if any of the team or management watch and analyse our defeats. Watford, West Brom and now Blunderland - 3 defensive teams have all turned us over and you'd think after the first loss we'd have learned something. A bit harsh to include the West Brom fiasco. We are hardly likely to break down a Pulis team playing over half the game with 9 men. And do we not go near an opposition player in case he takes a dive ? You don't think it was Poolis's plan to wind up our players then? Please tell me where I have said we shouldn't touch opposition players. Ho hum
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Post by milky on Nov 30, 2015 19:17:20 GMT
A bit harsh to include the West Brom fiasco. We are hardly likely to break down a Pulis team playing over half the game with 9 men. And do we not go near an opposition player in case he takes a dive ? You don't think it was Poolis's plan to wind up our players then? Please tell me where I have said we shouldn't touch opposition players. Ho hum You didn't to be fair... However cheats will cheat and you need a good strong referee. Oliver and Dean are neither.It's ok saying we were naive but what's the game coming to if a player shirks a tackle for fear of being conned and a possible red card ?
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Post by mcf on Nov 30, 2015 19:17:43 GMT
I don't think we got what we deserved.
The ref completely changed the complexion of the game.
It's no use talking about the penalty that they could have had. They may not have been anywhere near our box if we had kept 11 on the pitch.
It was a very similar performance to many of the others that chalked up away wins except that Walters missed his chance when it came along.
PS Well done to SuperTone lately - came from behind at home v Arsenal and salvaged a point from West Ham.
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Post by numpty40 on Nov 30, 2015 19:28:40 GMT
PS Well done to SuperTone lately - came from behind at home v Arsenal and salvaged a point from West Ham. Indeed, don't you think the West Brom tracksuit and baseball cap suit him better though? Makes him look a little more dapper.
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Post by potterglen on Nov 30, 2015 19:32:20 GMT
You don't think it was Poolis's plan to wind up our players then? Please tell me where I have said we shouldn't touch opposition players. Ho hum You didn't to be fair... However cheats will cheat and you need a good strong referee. Oliver and Dean are neither.It's ok saying we were naive but what's the game coming to if a player shirks a tackle for fear of being conned and a possible red card ? Cheating always leaves a nasty taste and you're quite right about Oliver and Dean - both are spineless. However, players as good as Ryan should be able to divert a situation and avoid cheap yellow cards like the first one. Anyway, we move on to the next game and hopefully a victory against Wednesday who are by no means a push over.
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Post by milky on Nov 30, 2015 19:37:24 GMT
You didn't to be fair... However cheats will cheat and you need a good strong referee. Oliver and Dean are neither.It's ok saying we were naive but what's the game coming to if a player shirks a tackle for fear of being conned and a possible red card ? Cheating always leaves a nasty taste and you're quite right about Oliver and Dean - both are spineless. However, players as good as Ryan should be able to divert a situation and avoid cheap yellow cards like the first one. Anyway, we move on to the next game and hopefully a victory against Wednesday who are by no means a push over. That type of situation happens to the best of em to be fair . Sometimes the forward just gets the better of the defender. You're right though. We move on.There will be more ups and downs as the season progresses. Let's hope tomorrow is a big up
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Post by mcf on Nov 30, 2015 20:25:59 GMT
PS Well done to SuperTone lately - came from behind at home v Arsenal and salvaged a point from West Ham. Indeed, don't you think the West Brom tracksuit and baseball cap suit him better though? Makes him look a little more dapper. I think it suits him better with the more games that we win.
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Post by stokey127 on Nov 30, 2015 21:19:45 GMT
We need to look in the transfer winow and splash out for a regular goal scoring striker we obviously don't have the strength in that area, we are finding the opportunities but not finishing, that was so evident at Southampton. Be tough for Sparky to get that past old Coatesy though I would imagine. Don't forget Mr. Coates was persuaded to sign extensions for Crouch and Odemwingie in the summer neither of whom any longer feature and we just extended Walters contract too for another 3 years and SJW himself may be about to be invited to take a rest. If you then toss in the £6 million we invested in the frozen out Joselou in the summer it is starting to get a bit silly. I suspect if Sparky were to go to the Chairman now and say 'How are we fixed for another striker Mr. Coates?' I fear it would leave him with copious quantities of steam coming out if his ears followed by a stream of the sort of expletives you would not normally expect from a man of that age in his position!
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Post by stokey127 on Nov 30, 2015 21:21:13 GMT
We need to look in the transfer winow and splash out for a regular goal scoring striker we obviously don't have the strength in that area, we are finding the opportunities but not finishing, that was so evident at Southampton. Be tough for Sparky to get that past old Coatesy though I would imagine. Don't forget Mr. Coates was persuaded to sign extensions for Crouch and Odemwingie in the summer neither of whom any longer feature and we just extended Walters contract too for another 3 years and SJW himself may be about to be invited to take a rest. If you then toss in the £6 million we invested in the frozen out Joselou in the summer it is starting to get a bit silly. I suspect if Sparky were to go to the Chairman now and say 'How are we fixed for another striker Mr. Coates?' I fear it would leave him with copious quantities of steam coming out if his ears followed by a stream of the sort of expletives you would not normally expect from a man of that age in his position! Fair comment but something has to change we cannot continue without goals
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