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Mike Dean
Nov 29, 2015 15:00:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by cobhamstokey on Nov 29, 2015 15:00:40 GMT
What is the law when a keeper handles outside the box is it a straight red ? No. I'm not sure but a keeper relatively recently got a red for doing exactly what Pantiliman did.cant remember who.
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Mike Dean
Nov 29, 2015 15:18:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by lastoftheldk on Nov 29, 2015 15:18:28 GMT
As bad as Dean was, Ryan cost us the match today , that's the truth, if it had been any of our other centre halfs there would by now be a twenty page thread slaging them off I'll bet there was a little bulge in your pocket when that red card came out. Didn't see you comment about Shawcross's performances against Chelsea (twice), Newcastle and Southampton. Why would I comment about Ryans performances against those teams, he wasnt our best player or defender, did those performances put a tiny tiny bulge in your pocket. The second yellow was not a yellow, it was a good ball winning tackle. But Ryan was very naive, and was running around like a headless chicken in the first half. Cost us at least a point
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Post by raythesailor on Nov 29, 2015 15:40:17 GMT
I'm not sure but a keeper relatively recently got a red for doing exactly what Pantiliman did.cant remember who. It is a direct free kick. it is only a sending off if it deliberately denies an attacking opponent from a goal scoring opportunity. have not seen the incident so can not comment further. i did see on MOD the Shawcross sending off. I thought it was a joke. He played the ball and the Sunderland guy fell over him afterwards. yet another game spoilt by poor refereeing decision.
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Post by Northy on Nov 29, 2015 15:45:32 GMT
Northwich Tell me then how on 45 mins i said it was an inevitable red on 45 mins and it happened on 47 It wasn't just a yellow it was the circumstances ref , opposition , ground , media , chance for allardyce to get at dean that mad it inevitable I'm afraid your the daft one On this occasion as I saw it , called it in advance and it happened totally avoidable . I don't read every one of your posts As i said, why take every player off who gets a yellow from shit refs, we'd be playing with 8 players a match, Hughes has to trust his players, they'd all want a transfer if he took them off every time they got a yellow
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Post by siggy on Nov 29, 2015 17:04:34 GMT
No-one questioning the decision on my channel. Shawx was clumsy according to Townsend. I'm sure if it was any of the top 6 teams they would still be analyzing it now Girls On Sunday - They didn't analyse it but Kammy said Dean got a lot wrong and the second wasn't even a foul.
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Post by Olgrligm on Nov 29, 2015 17:57:16 GMT
I missed the game yesterday (a blessing in disguise) but caught the highlights on Match of the Day. They missed out a lot of the incidents mentioned here, but the conduct of the Sunderland players and Dean in those incidents that were shown was appalling. Absolutely disgusting.
I think it's time for another dossier to go into the FA. Dean can never, ever be allowed to referee us again.
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Mike Dean
Nov 29, 2015 18:03:21 GMT
via mobile
Post by milky on Nov 29, 2015 18:03:21 GMT
I missed the game yesterday (a blessing in disguise) but caught the highlights on Match of the Day. They missed out a lot of the incidents mentioned here, but the conduct of the Sunderland players and Dean in those incidents that were shown was appalling. Absolutely disgusting. I think it's time for another dossier to go into the FA. Dean can never, ever be allowed to referee us again. The guy has previous with us going back to the previous managers days and he clearly treats Stoke City in a way he doesn't treat any other club. I'd love to see his stats for red cards since 2008 and what percentage are Stoke City players.
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Post by tuum on Nov 29, 2015 18:41:42 GMT
Your comment about having played the game is (a) patronizing and (b)irrelevant. Both players were generally facing the same way with Shawcross coming in at an angle. From the referees position it is perfectly feasible to think that the forward has knocked it past Shawcross and then been taken out or that Shawcross' challenge took the man first before playing the ball. The direction of the ball may be supportive of Shawcross but it is by no means absolute I only saw it one time from one camera angle looking from the half way line towards the Stoke goal and my impression was it was not as clear cut as I was expecting. From the referees position what he saw was probably even worse for us in how he interpreted the situation. I don't think Dean had an agenda, I just think from his position it looked as though Shawcross has taken the forward out. Well from my position in the away end the ref was pretty much in line between me and the indident - albeit 70 yards closer to the incident than I was. As soon as the tackle went in I could see that Shawcross quite clearly got a touch on the ball because the ball moved in the direction it would move in if Shawcross got a touch on it. As regards your second point that Shawcross's challenge might have taken the man first before the ball - that is nonsense. Of course the incident COULD have happened that way but it didn't - and, more importantly, THERE WAS NOTHING ABOUT THE INCIDENT TO SUGGEST THAT THE MAN WAS TAKEN BEFORE THE BALL. For a second yellow (which means an automatic red) the ref can't say to himself WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE that "the man might have been taken before the ball, so I am going to give a yellow card" - refs are supposed to call on what they SEE not what COULD have happened. I saw it once....the same as the ref. It was not obvious to me. The point you & others make about the direction the ball moved is quite frankly fuckin rubbish. It is persuasive but not absolute..that is all. I am not saying the ref is correct. I am saying he saw it differently. CAPITAL letters does not make your argument any more valid. Stoke fans are pissed off with Mike Dean. No one else seems to be. It's football. You win some you lose some. That is what makes it such an emotional game.
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Post by roylandstoke on Nov 29, 2015 19:21:34 GMT
Well from my position in the away end the ref was pretty much in line between me and the indident - albeit 70 yards closer to the incident than I was. As soon as the tackle went in I could see that Shawcross quite clearly got a touch on the ball because the ball moved in the direction it would move in if Shawcross got a touch on it. As regards your second point that Shawcross's challenge might have taken the man first before the ball - that is nonsense. Of course the incident COULD have happened that way but it didn't - and, more importantly, THERE WAS NOTHING ABOUT THE INCIDENT TO SUGGEST THAT THE MAN WAS TAKEN BEFORE THE BALL. For a second yellow (which means an automatic red) the ref can't say to himself WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE that "the man might have been taken before the ball, so I am going to give a yellow card" - refs are supposed to call on what they SEE not what COULD have happened. I saw it once....the same as the ref. It was not obvious to me. The point you & others make about the direction the ball moved is quite frankly fuckin rubbish. It is persuasive but not absolute..that is all. I am not saying the ref is correct. I am saying he saw it differently. CAPITAL letters does not make your argument any more valid. Stoke fans are pissed off with Mike Dean. No one else seems to be.It's football. You win some you lose some. That is what makes it such an emotional game. I detest everything about Arsenal and feel absolutely filthy for mentioning their support on this board, but you are clearly unaware of the petition to stop Dean reffing Arsenal which has gained over 100,000 signatures and could be debated in Parliament.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Nov 29, 2015 19:41:08 GMT
Well from my position in the away end the ref was pretty much in line between me and the indident - albeit 70 yards closer to the incident than I was. As soon as the tackle went in I could see that Shawcross quite clearly got a touch on the ball because the ball moved in the direction it would move in if Shawcross got a touch on it. As regards your second point that Shawcross's challenge might have taken the man first before the ball - that is nonsense. Of course the incident COULD have happened that way but it didn't - and, more importantly, THERE WAS NOTHING ABOUT THE INCIDENT TO SUGGEST THAT THE MAN WAS TAKEN BEFORE THE BALL. For a second yellow (which means an automatic red) the ref can't say to himself WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE that "the man might have been taken before the ball, so I am going to give a yellow card" - refs are supposed to call on what they SEE not what COULD have happened. I saw it once....the same as the ref. It was not obvious to me. The point you & others make about the direction the ball moved is quite frankly fuckin rubbish. It is persuasive but not absolute..that is all. I am not saying the ref is correct. I am saying he saw it differently. CAPITAL letters does not make your argument any more valid. Stoke fans are pissed off with Mike Dean. No one else seems to be. It's football. You win some you lose some. That is what makes it such an emotional game. I used capital letters in the hope that you would address the points I was raising. To take one of them - what was there in the incident to suggest that the man was taken before the ball? Because if there wasn't anything to suggest that the man was taken before the ball, then I am at a loss to see on what basis Dean could call a foul.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Nov 29, 2015 21:05:34 GMT
I'm not sure but a keeper relatively recently got a red for doing exactly what Pantiliman did.cant remember who. It is a direct free kick. it is only a sending off if it deliberately denies an attacking opponent from a goal scoring opportunity. have not seen the incident so can not comment further. i did see on MOD the Shawcross sending off. I thought it was a joke. He played the ball and the Sunderland guy fell over him afterwards. yet another game spoilt by poor refereeing decision. From our vantage point, the ball certainly looked as though it was just outside the area, but you have to remember that the whole ball has to be out. I would like to see it again from a camera angle which allows you to see that. The Ref appeared to be in a good position to see. It wasn't a goal scoring opportunity so definitely wasn't a red. I'm not even sure it would have been a yellow because he slid out of the area in possession and clearly didn't deliberately handle it outside.
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Post by raythesailor on Nov 29, 2015 21:54:43 GMT
Hi Malcolm. As I said I did not see it so can not comment but your post has bought up an interesting point. Normally an offence under rule 12 has to be committed deliberately. If a goalkeeper takes possession by hand, or arm, within the penalty area, and then slides outside his area, whilst still controlling the ball by hand or arm, is it then a foul/free kick ?
Personally I think yes as he should let it go.
Refereeing is not always black and white, but a matter of judgement.
Hope this will spark off further debate.
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Mike Dean
Nov 30, 2015 1:14:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by britsabroad on Nov 30, 2015 1:14:46 GMT
Hi Malcolm. As I said I did not see it so can not comment but your post has bought up an interesting point. Normally an offence under rule 12 has to be committed deliberately. If a goalkeeper takes possession by hand, or arm, within the penalty area, and then slides outside his area, whilst still controlling the ball by hand or arm, is it then a foul/free kick ? Personally I think yes as he should let it go. Refereeing is not always black and white, but a matter of judgement. Hope this will spark off further debate. It would be (and has been) given if obvious, although in practice plenty of keepers creep outside when they kick upfield from their hands.
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Mike Dean
Nov 30, 2015 1:30:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by britsabroad on Nov 30, 2015 1:30:55 GMT
From a neutral view that was a clumsy tackle by Shawcross that he should know better than to make in that position, but its not a yellow, especially when it would lead to a red. From Dean's angle it looks like he completely missed the ball when he actually managed to scrape a touch.
Some of you do seem to think you can snap someone in half as long as you get half a hair on the ball first.
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Post by tuum on Nov 30, 2015 2:36:40 GMT
It is a direct free kick. it is only a sending off if it deliberately denies an attacking opponent from a goal scoring opportunity. have not seen the incident so can not comment further. i did see on MOD the Shawcross sending off. I thought it was a joke. He played the ball and the Sunderland guy fell over him afterwards. yet another game spoilt by poor refereeing decision. From our vantage point, the ball certainly looked as though it was just outside the area, but you have to remember that the whole ball has to be out. I would like to see it again from a camera angle which allows you to see that. The Ref appeared to be in a good position to see. It wasn't a goal scoring opportunity so definitely wasn't a red. I'm not even sure it would have been a yellow because he slid out of the area in possession and clearly didn't deliberately handle it outside. There is a very good camera angle that clearly shows all of Panto's left arm is outside of the penalty area. It is tight so in the split second available I can understand why the ref did not make the call. Perhaps he could have done the same with Shawcross and given him the benefit of the doubt...unless,of course, he saw that one much more clearly (even if wrongly).
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Post by tuum on Nov 30, 2015 2:40:03 GMT
I saw it once....the same as the ref. It was not obvious to me. The point you & others make about the direction the ball moved is quite frankly fuckin rubbish. It is persuasive but not absolute..that is all. I am not saying the ref is correct. I am saying he saw it differently. CAPITAL letters does not make your argument any more valid. Stoke fans are pissed off with Mike Dean. No one else seems to be.It's football. You win some you lose some. That is what makes it such an emotional game. I detest everything about Arsenal and feel absolutely filthy for mentioning their support on this board, but you are clearly unaware of the petition to stop Dean reffing Arsenal which has gained over 100,000 signatures and could be debated in Parliament. I was talking specifically about the one incident but you are right. Mike Dean is a shite ref and someone we should avoid if at all possible.
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Post by tuum on Nov 30, 2015 3:00:13 GMT
I saw it once....the same as the ref. It was not obvious to me. The point you & others make about the direction the ball moved is quite frankly fuckin rubbish. It is persuasive but not absolute..that is all. I am not saying the ref is correct. I am saying he saw it differently. CAPITAL letters does not make your argument any more valid. Stoke fans are pissed off with Mike Dean. No one else seems to be. It's football. You win some you lose some. That is what makes it such an emotional game. I used capital letters in the hope that you would address the points I was raising. To take one of them - what was there in the incident to suggest that the man was taken before the ball? Because if there wasn't anything to suggest that the man was taken before the ball, then I am at a loss to see on what basis Dean could call a foul. Ok. I saw it once on the telly with a quick replay. In real time it was 50:50. It was difficult (for me) to tell who played what and when. On the replay, it was still not clear whether Shawcross actually played the ball. I saw his foot come across Watmore and was somewhere in the vicinity of the ball but it was not absolutely nailed on clear that he (Shawcross) played the ball. Admittedly, I was not studying the incident in detail. What he did do though with his challenge was to take the forward out. So, he either got the ball and his momentum caused the collision or he did not get the ball and his momentum caused the collision. In this day and age, fouls are given for reckless tackling regardless of whether or not the ball was won. I am not necessarily agreeing with Dean but as I said earlier, I was expecting it to be much more clear cut that Shawcross was wronged After having seen it on the TV I can't honestly say that he was blatantly wronged. In the same way that I cannot say that Pieters did not touch Johnson for the foul that lead to the 1st goal. That is all. I have no particular axe to grind in this argument. I like it that everyone is pissed off. Shite referees are part and parcel of the game. It allows us to excuse the piss poor performance of our team on occasions and to blame the ref for everything that goes wrong as a result of his allegedly poor decision making.
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Post by darius on Nov 30, 2015 4:49:57 GMT
Ryan was walking a tightrope from the first half I guess, but it does seem that Dean sends off a lot of our players.. Watmore stayed on his feet for the first one or Shawcross would have gone earlier.
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Post by sarniastokie on Nov 30, 2015 12:43:35 GMT
Changing the subject slightly I've just seen Dermot Gallagher on Sky discussing the Stephen Fletcher diving incident in our box on Saturday.
He said he can understand why Mike Dean did not book Fletcher as the player was unlikely to gain anything from it.
What the hell does that mean ?
Even the Sky presenter was laughing saying that Fletcher went down like he had Thirty thousand volts put through him.
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Post by capto on Nov 30, 2015 15:30:18 GMT
Only ourselves to blame he should not have been on the pitch by the sending off withdrawn for tactical reasons at half time . Oh shut up you daft fooker, do you substitute players just because they get a yellow? No you don't, unless its woodgate at right back having a mare, you would end up playing with 9 at times and some hobbling with injuries. erm, seem to remember sir alex shithead subbing Gary shithead when being given the runaround by Matty - shithead may have been captain as well? remember Wayne Thomas playing at f/b, against, I think, Bristol City, fast winger, early booking, red just matter of time, TP no sub - red card followed. Best I could suggest is, wolly subbed for more mobile c/b & he man marks Twatmore?
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Post by jonnynico on Nov 30, 2015 16:37:23 GMT
dermont Gallagher ref for sky says wrong to send shawcross off as he got the ball so no foul, also says the pen claim by fletcher I think it was correct too as no foul, not like him to be in favour to us
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Mike Dean
Nov 30, 2015 17:45:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by redandwhitetundra on Nov 30, 2015 17:45:58 GMT
Hi Malcolm. As I said I did not see it so can not comment but your post has bought up an interesting point. Normally an offence under rule 12 has to be committed deliberately. If a goalkeeper takes possession by hand, or arm, within the penalty area, and then slides outside his area, whilst still controlling the ball by hand or arm, is it then a foul/free kick ? Personally I think yes as he should let it go. Refereeing is not always black and white, but a matter of judgement. Hope this will spark off further debate. It would still be a free kick for handball. Referee would have to judge whether deliberate or not to determine colour of card (if any).
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Post by Northy on Nov 30, 2015 17:55:18 GMT
From a neutral view that was a clumsy tackle by Shawcross that he should know better than to make in that position, but its not a yellow, especially when it would lead to a red. From Dean's angle it looks like he completely missed the ball when he actually managed to scrape a touch. Some of you do seem to think you can snap someone in half as long as you get half a hair on the ball first. Some think it was a decent tackle as he got the ball cleanly, some others are like Wenger and want the game to turn into ballet, guess which one I'm in and what I think you are in
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Post by darius on Dec 1, 2015 8:14:43 GMT
There was the penalty he didn't give when Lens was brought down in the box as well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 8:59:33 GMT
There was the penalty he didn't give when Lens was brought down in the box as well. Dive.
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Post by KevinWhimper on Dec 1, 2015 9:07:36 GMT
Plus the kiddy fiddler's dive for the free kick for their first goal. Shambolic refereeing performance.
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Post by darius on Dec 1, 2015 9:08:41 GMT
There was the penalty he didn't give when Lens was brought down in the box as well. Dive. He tried to stay on his feet! Strange dive?
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Post by milky on Dec 1, 2015 9:17:42 GMT
Changing the subject slightly I've just seen Dermot Gallagher on Sky discussing the Stephen Fletcher diving incident in our box on Saturday. He said he can understand why Mike Dean did not book Fletcher as the player was unlikely to gain anything from it. What the hell does that mean ? Even the Sky presenter was laughing saying that Fletcher went down like he had Thirty thousand volts put through him. Not likely to gain an advantage from it ?? Apart from a penalty and a probable goal ?? It was blatant cheating and a yellow..then again he let Larsson off scot free for a cynical foul on Bojan minutes after he couldn't wait to dish out a card to Adam for the same. Dean really was diabolical. He couldn't have been far off some sort of record for how many decisions he got wrong.
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Post by Fenparkpotter on Dec 1, 2015 9:43:35 GMT
Ryan was walking a tightrope from the first half I guess, but it does seem that Dean sends off a lot of our players.. Watmore stayed on his feet for the first one or Shawcross would have gone earlier. Possibly, but if Ryan gets booked for the first tackle, he may not make the second one 2 mins later, so who knows!
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Post by metalhead on Dec 1, 2015 10:19:49 GMT
Changing the subject slightly I've just seen Dermot Gallagher on Sky discussing the Stephen Fletcher diving incident in our box on Saturday. He said he can understand why Mike Dean did not book Fletcher as the player was unlikely to gain anything from it. What the hell does that mean ? Even the Sky presenter was laughing saying that Fletcher went down like he had Thirty thousand volts put through him. Not likely to gain an advantage from it ?? Apart from a penalty and a probable goal ?? It was blatant cheating and a yellow..then again he let Larsson off scot free for a cynical foul on Bojan minutes after he couldn't wait to dish out a card to Adam for the same. Dean really was diabolical. He couldn't have been far off some sort of record for how many decisions he got wrong. As poor as he was, we still need to look firmly at ourselves imo.
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