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Post by manmarking on Nov 27, 2015 10:57:11 GMT
As Partick has suggested, here's a thread on the topic du jour - should we join in with direct military intervention on Syria? If so, what form do you think our action should take? If not, what alternative action(s) do you favour? For the record, I'm pro-intervention but not in the form that I fear it will take - endless bombing raids and little else. I'm in favour of a huge and possibly unprecedented UN (or at least VERY broad coalition) force on the ground AS WELL AS carefully targeted but limited air strikes. And do please let's try to keep it civil, Cakers. Less of the pinko/nazi/commie stuff. It's Friday, remember.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 27, 2015 11:51:04 GMT
We should pull out altogether. Nothing will ever get 'solved' in that region untill the root cause of it all, Saudi Arabia (And increasingly, Turkey) are delt with, but seeing as these are our 'allies' it's not going to ever get delt with. Leave it to Russia to sort out & bring our forces home to protect our own citizens in our own country.
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Post by bringmesunshine on Nov 27, 2015 11:50:57 GMT
A coalition of boots on the ground is the only way to defeat IS, but as I said no the other thread how many more people need to die for this to happen?
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Post by bringmesunshine on Nov 27, 2015 11:55:52 GMT
We should pull out altogether. Nothing will ever get 'solved' in that region untill the root cause of it all, Saudi Arabia (And increasingly, Turkey) are delt with, but seeing as these are our 'allies' it's not going to ever get delt with. Leave it to Russia to sort out & bring our forces home to protect our own citizens in our own country. And as a result Russia’s sphere of influence worldwide continues to increase, which would be in no way of a concern at all.
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 11:56:33 GMT
For me it is very simple.
We are either engaged militarily in this conflict or we are not. Meaning, if it is OK to attack ISIL in Iraq it is OK to attack them in Syria. This is the political decision, IMO, and it has already, de facto, been made.
What we are really talking about is deployment, which is a military decision. From my poorly informed perspective, I don't see much to be gained from British bombing in Syria; it's getting pounded by the Yanks, Ruskies and since last Friday, big time by the French.
It's hypocrisy to say we should not be active in Syria and not also call for an end to bombing in Iraq.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 27, 2015 12:03:50 GMT
No, absolutely not. Akin to twatting a wasp's nest with a stick.
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Post by manmarking on Nov 27, 2015 12:14:59 GMT
No, absolutely not. Akin to twatting a wasp's nest with a stick. I agree that the current strategy seems to be little more than that mate. But do you not think that SOMETHING has to be done? For me it's ideally a broad coalition or a UN army. Maybe even one that doesn't involve us or America at all, since we've played a part in causing the whole sorry mess and aren't exactly popular in that part of the world. That's a tricky one in itself because arguably if you play a part in causing a mess, you have a moral duty to help clean it up.
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Post by bringmesunshine on Nov 27, 2015 12:18:44 GMT
No, absolutely not. Akin to twatting a wasp's nest with a stick. The nest has already been twatted and sooner or later they will be flying over here.
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Post by lordb on Nov 27, 2015 12:20:57 GMT
'Leaving it to Russia to sort out' is precisely why the west will not walk away from Syria.
Unless Russia reigns in it's expansionist policies in that region (which seems highly improbable) then this is going to rumble on (not just Syria either) for years & years.
The Russians for their part will have taken a dim view of the wests wars & meddling over the last 13 years too.
Big fat mess which is only going to get messier
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Post by manmarking on Nov 27, 2015 12:22:59 GMT
For me it is very simple. We are either engaged militarily in this conflict or we are not. Meaning, if it is OK to attack ISIL in Iraq it is OK to attack them in Syria. This is the political decision, IMO, and it has already, de facto, been made. What we are really talking about is deployment, which is a military decision. From my poorly informed perspective, I don't see much to be gained from British bombing if Syria; it's getting pounded by the Yanks, Ruskies and since last Friday, big time by the French. It's hypocrisy to say we should not be active in Syria and not also call for an end to bombing in Iraq. From my point of view the bombing campaign seems little more than a dick-measuring contest unless it's backed up by a credible peacekeeping force on the ground. Bombing clearly hasn't made either the world or the region much safer and I completely agree that a handful of extra bombs aren't really going to make the outlook any better.
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 12:26:16 GMT
For me it is very simple. We are either engaged militarily in this conflict or we are not. Meaning, if it is OK to attack ISIL in Iraq it is OK to attack them in Syria. This is the political decision, IMO, and it has already, de facto, been made. What we are really talking about is deployment, which is a military decision. From my poorly informed perspective, I don't see much to be gained from British bombing if Syria; it's getting pounded by the Yanks, Ruskies and since last Friday, big time by the French. It's hypocrisy to say we should not be active in Syria and not also call for an end to bombing in Iraq. From my point of view the bombing campaign seems little more than a dick-measuring contest unless it's backed up by a credible peacekeeping force on the ground. Bombing clearly hasn't made either the world or the region much safer and I completely agree that a handful of extra bombs aren't really going to make the outlook any better. So we get out. That argument is coherent. Unlike the current situation.
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Post by Ayupshag on Nov 27, 2015 12:26:44 GMT
Pointless going into Syria now. The cunts are everywhere but Syria. Save the money and fight them on our own turf cos they're already here
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 12:30:29 GMT
No, absolutely not. Akin to twatting a wasp's nest with a stick. The nest has already been twatted and sooner or later they will be flying over here. Congrats to Huddy - It's a great metaphor. But, as usual for Huddy, he's failed to understand the full implication. You are quite correct to point out the wasps don't care who twatted their nest, they'll sting anyone They come across.
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Post by lastoftheldk on Nov 27, 2015 12:30:43 GMT
It's easy to beat isis.
Destroy their oil installions.
Stop them selling the oil
Stop their financial transactions
Stop the supply routes.
I wonder why it wasn't done along time ago
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Post by manmarking on Nov 27, 2015 12:38:01 GMT
It's easy to beat isis. Destroy their oil installions. Stop them selling the oil Stop their financial transactions Stop the supply routes. I wonder why it wasn't done along time ago I agree with what you say needs doing but I'm not so sure it's that easy to actually beat them. Without a strong and locally respected presence on the ground, they'd just disperse all over the bastard show.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 27, 2015 12:45:42 GMT
It's easy to beat isis. Destroy their oil installions. Stop them selling the oil Stop their financial transactions Stop the supply routes. I wonder why it wasn't done along time ago Russia is trying to do the top-half of that list, but Turkey keeps shooting their planes down. The Kurds have been trying to do the last thing on the list for months now, but Turkey keeps bombing fuck out of them & stopping them doing so. ... But Turkey are our 'allies' & a member of NATO so we have to be fully supportive of them.
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 27, 2015 12:52:41 GMT
It's easy to beat isis. Destroy their oil installions. Stop them selling the oil Stop their financial transactions Stop the supply routes. I wonder why it wasn't done along time ago Russia is trying to do the top-half of that list, but Turkey keeps shooting their planes down. The Kurds have been trying to do the last thing on the list for months now, but Turkey keeps bombing fuck out of them & stopping them doing so. ... But Turkey are our 'allies' & a member of NATO so we have to be fully supportive of them. Russia spend 90% of their time bombing anti-assad rebels, they don't give a fuck about ISIS and they were boming anti-Assad forces when their plane was shot down not ISIS.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 27, 2015 13:00:51 GMT
Russia spend 90% of their time bombing anti-assad rebels, they don't give a fuck about ISIS and they were boming anti-Assad forces when their plane was shot down not ISIS. Not this again. Russia have made hundreds upon hundreds of bombing raids against ISIS, go & read any media anywhere around the world. They've also recently turned their attention to attacking ISIS oil production & oil tankers en route to Turkey... Ironic that since this happened Turkey has now shot down a Russia plane. Russia are attacking all terrorists in Syria, and unlike 'the coalition' they don't see ISIS as bad guys but Al Qeada affiliated Al Nusra Front as good guys (They're the 'moderate rebels' who're all throughout the area the plane got shot down) - (Only in the fucked up West can we call some of Bin Laden's buddies 'moderates', but hey, it'll help us impose our will on the area & get rid of Assad. We can then put the Nusra Front guys in charge of Syria & it'll all be peace & harmony...)
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Post by manmarking on Nov 27, 2015 13:25:41 GMT
Russia spend 90% of their time bombing anti-assad rebels, they don't give a fuck about ISIS and they were boming anti-Assad forces when their plane was shot down not ISIS. Not this again. Russia have made hundreds upon hundreds of bombing raids against ISIS, go & read any media anywhere around the world. They've also recently turned their attention to attacking ISIS oil production & oil tankers en route to Turkey... Ironic that since this happened Turkey has now shot down a Russia plane. Russia are attacking all terrorists in Syria, and unlike 'the coalition' they don't see ISIS as bad guys but Al Qeada affiliated Al Nusra Front as good guys (They're the 'moderate rebels' who're all throughout the area the plane got shot down) - (Only in the fucked up West can we call some of Bin Laden's buddies 'moderates', but hey, it'll help us impose our will on the area & get rid of Assad. We can then put the Nusra Front guys in charge of Syria & it'll all be peace & harmony...) Russia certainly do get a shitty stick in western media mate, no doubt about it. All a big hangover from the Cold War. Russian bear and all that. You only have to look at the premature outrage and finger-pointing following events like the Georgia invasion, the Malaysia Airlines shootdown and the Crimea annexation. HOWEVER, Russia IS hurting a lot of civilians and ISN'T an angel by any stretch. All this bombing simply won't make the world any safer without boots on the ground I'm afraid.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 27, 2015 13:41:19 GMT
There are boots on the ground. Assad's army will serve it up to ISIS when they can get there, but first they've gotta defeat all the other terrorists en route. Then there is also the Kurds, who could have defeated ISIS by now if Turkey would fuck off bombing them.
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Post by manmarking on Nov 27, 2015 14:15:34 GMT
There are boots on the ground. Assad's army will serve it up to ISIS when they can get there, but first they've gotta defeat all the other terrorists en route. Then there is also the Kurds, who could have defeated ISIS by now if Turkey would fuck off bombing them. Agree about Turkey yes mate. Very questionable aims coming out of Ankara. However I don't think that Assad's troops will do - they're just not supported by enough Syrians to command authority. It needs some neutrals to police it all for me.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 27, 2015 16:12:54 GMT
The nest has already been twatted and sooner or later they will be flying over here. Congrats to Huddy - It's a great metaphor. But, as usual for Huddy, he's failed to understand the full implication. You are quite correct to point out the wasps don't care who twatted their nest, they'll sting anyone They come across. I beg your pardon?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 27, 2015 16:20:32 GMT
It's easy to beat isis. Destroy their oil installions. Stop them selling the oil Stop their financial transactions Stop the supply routes. I wonder why it wasn't done along time ago Absolutely. 5 ways to stop this madness 1. Cut off their supply of money by stopping Turkey and surrounding states buying their captured oil. 2. Stop the supply of arms by stopping all arms and munition sales to the region. 3. Use hackers from Anonymous to cut off their Internet propaganda. 4. Using UN peacekeeping forces with a very large Muslim multi community to create safe zones at the edge of Syria for those terrified by IS. 5. Don't let them win. They need our fear and hatred. Celebrate the rich diversity of our wonderful nation.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Nov 27, 2015 16:30:14 GMT
It's easy to beat isis. Destroy their oil installions. Stop them selling the oil Stop their financial transactions Stop the supply routes. I wonder why it wasn't done along time ago Absolutely. 5 ways to stop this madness 1. Cut off their supply of money by stopping Turkey and surrounding states buying their captured oil. 2. Stop the supply of arms by stopping all arms and munition sales to the region. 3. Use hackers from Anonymous to cut off their Internet propaganda. 4. Using UN peacekeeping forces with a very large Muslim multi community to create safe zones at the edge of Syria for those terrified by IS. 5. Don't let them win. They need our fear and hatred. Celebrate the rich diversity of our wonderful nation. I'll certainly be following point 5. I'm off to get some refreshment from Mr Patel in a minute and later on I'll be ordering a curry from Al Halal in Dresden (best takeaway going). A beer and a ruby, it's defo worth celebrating :)
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Post by capto on Nov 27, 2015 17:50:17 GMT
Can't be beaten in Iraq & Syria - there supporters are everywhere - they claim Islam for the whole earth (look it up on Wiki) - westerners on a 'muslim' land just give them more excuse for violence - my view? hunt them down in the west & incarcerate them (i wld like to behead or crucify them but we must respect their human rights mustn't we)- do everything we can to hurt them financially - get the media onside; portray them as they are, mass sadistic murderers & if the media doesn't, put them in prison with the jihadists for a year or two- toughen the laws up so that our vision of democracy is all that is allowed, no religious / sharia courts - no private teaching of religion - and if they don't like our idea of freedom & democracy, there is, I believe 52 muslim countries to choose from where they can practice what they wanna preach ................
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 17:56:39 GMT
Absolutely. 5 ways to stop this madness 1. Cut off their supply of money by stopping Turkey and surrounding states buying their captured oil. 2. Stop the supply of arms by stopping all arms and munition sales to the region. 3. Use hackers from Anonymous to cut off their Internet propaganda. 4. Using UN peacekeeping forces with a very large Muslim multi community to create safe zones at the edge of Syria for those terrified by IS. 5. Don't let them win. They need our fear and hatred. Celebrate the rich diversity of our wonderful nation. I'll certainly be following point 5. I'm off to get some refreshment from Mr Patel in a minute and later on I'll be ordering a curry from Al Halal in Dresden (best takeaway going). A beer and a ruby, it's defo worth celebrating Multi cultural Britain - don't you just love it.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 27, 2015 18:05:32 GMT
toughen the laws up so that our vision of democracy is all that is allowed, Whilst good in theory, there is a big problem with this part of your post. What is legal & a democratic right now might not be so in the (very) near future. We're already spyed upon like never before, cameras everywhere, tracking of your every movement through seemingly innocent things like 'club card points', reading your emails & text messages etc... Sure, people will say "It helps to fight terrorism" & "If you've got nothing to hide what's the problem?"... But things are changing all the time, something as simple as cracking a joke just a decade ago can now land you in prison for all kinds of "ism's". Who is to say what jokes/speaches/protests/thoughts/etc... land you in trouble ten years from now. If we start saying "Live as we say or else!" We've lost. We should pride ourselves on our freedoms, which are increasingly being taken away from us under the cover of terrorism.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 18:34:36 GMT
Leave well alone. No plan unlike the Russians so leave them to it
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Post by daibando on Nov 29, 2015 16:19:48 GMT
As Partick has suggested, here's a thread on the topic du jour - should we join in with direct military intervention on Syria? If so, what form do you think our action should take? If not, what alternative action(s) do you favour? For the record, I'm pro-intervention but not in the form that I fear it will take - endless bombing raids and little else. I'm in favour of a huge and possibly unprecedented UN (or at least VERY broad coalition) force on the ground AS WELL AS carefully targeted but limited air strikes. And do please let's try to keep it civil, Cakers. Less of the pinko/nazi/commie stuff. It's Friday, remember. No intervention...nothing. Why should the UK feel it has to do anything?
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Post by mtrstudent on Nov 29, 2015 17:43:20 GMT
westerners on a 'muslim' land just give them more excuse for violence - That's what I feel. There's nothing like getting invaded by Jonny Foreigner to bring a country together. This bloke read all the issues of IS' magazines and says that the thing they seem most worried about is everyone realising how shit they are at running things: millions of people desperately trying to escape is not a good advert for IS. Their best hope is to turn it into "Muslims vs. the West" and then make themselves look like the only hope for Muslims, which is why they want us to hate refugees. I can't see how sending the lads in would do us any good at all, you need locals to sort it out. I can see how bombing oil fields and stopping them from killing the allies we do have might work but the scary thing is that if we can't sort them out quickly then they're going to brainwash a generation.
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